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I don't know. I like the idea that Level 1 and 2 spells would require governing powers to try and turn their (mostly agricultural) lands into Orwellian police states to maintain a moderate level of safety.Lol why not? Your party gets a rest and the government does its due diligence.all they need is to put visitors up in a holding in for a few days after initial searches and they are now more likely to catch anything they missed beforeAre you seriously, with a straight face, suggesting this s+~~?That would destroy trade for the government.
It basically takes verisimilitude, turns it over its knee, spanks it until it's bottom turns blue, steals its lunch money, and blackens its eye for good measure.
Well generally, if you are basing your setting off of medieval Europe, then my understanding is that people need special leave to move from place to place. I am basing this off of half remembered history from a theater class though... so grain of salt.
Still, it would not be completely unreasonable to require merchants to have certification and basic checks. This would allow them relatively easy entrance (and it would provide an opportunity for the PCs to sneak in, possibly disguised as hired help). But everyone else? Well, the accommodations did sound rather reasonable...
Although, thinking about it, with just a basic detect magic pat down, you would absolutely be getting the TSA glove treatment. I mean, your average mid level PC (and this is the benchmark where people argue that skills become 'useless', right?) have a dozen magical items on their person, boosting stats and other such numbers. And those give off at least a faint aura, so it would be hard to hide completely during a basic search The average peasant though? 0 magical items are on them. So you are raising red flags right there.
Exactly. As stated above I'm just giving an example of what they are likely to do with people who you haven't met, have no papers, and no allegiances that benefit them (remember you're hear to ruin the barons day and steal the princess). Local merchants attached to well known guilds with all the proper paperwork can probably skate through in an hour or less on average since they have all the right papers, are well known, and are licensed to carry some or all of that crap since it is useful to their job (charm person is an easy way to handle bandits etc.). Again just look to reality and see we've been handling contraband forever and with all the same toys the smugglers and terrorists have been playing with for years.
As for smuggling OF COURSE THERE ARE SMUGGLERS. We all know that banning something doesn't make it go away and someone will always want something they can't have. And again that makes for the perfect opportunity for more roleplay. Now you have players trying to bribe traveling merchants for license with their caravan, dealing with smugglers or guerrilla fighter organizations who are willing to get them what they need, or going through the legal channels to get the proper permits. And every single one of these brings its own challenges to bear that the players now must deal with, do they trust the smugglers with their gear or lives for the prices they are paying, do they ally with rebels in town who could be as terrible and reckless as the baron, or how do they figure out which merchants are most likely to take the risk on these strangers who want to hire onto their traveling crew and are bedecked with more illegal contraband then a coke mule full of blow?
Seriously none of these are meant to completely stop a player who is bound and determined but it does make them both think about what they want to do beyond barge in the front door cause MAGIC and gives you as the GM tons of gaming fodder to play with that can easily play to every characters strength.
I wish I could favorite this post more than once - I really think you've nailed the main issue with the largely unchanged rogues and fighters compared to more contemporary classes.It's partly an era issue. I believe we're running into a "gotcha" to where we're expecting more well-rounded classes and characters. This newer expectation runs heads-on versus the old system, where 2 skill points per level was, previously, fairly acceptable because it wasn't a fighter's role. ...likewise, your rogue wasn't a nerfwhingyterribadawful (according to the forums), because they had their own role.
In the new and more generalized style, the class with 2 skill points per level has no place. The fighter as a /concept/ has even less place, because, going with the idea of "everyone has a way to contribute, just differently," every class should have a combat advantage and capability--just a different one.
Likewise, under the new style which has been emerging, the rogue as its concept exists has no place.
The inquisitor, witch, and similar classes personify this new style and new era. They're flexible in a multitude of areas. I imagine were Paizo able to rewrite the core classes, many of them would take on more robust, "new style" flavors.
This is in addition to points other posters have made. It is fairly easy to get a skill boost. When it comes down to it, a skill is just a number, which makes the idea that 15 ranks equals an epic level of discipline harder to swallow.
If we wanted skills to have a greater impact, they would need to be more robust, and bonuses to skill rolls would need to be more limited and controlled.
Finally, we would also need to re-adjust older classes, to bring them to the design preference of the newer era.
I'm glad you like it. I've started a thread--it's an area I would love to see get more discussion and input.
How would it be hard? Assuming that there were basic city walls, it would be easy enough just to post a bored wizard apprentice to cast detect magic one everyone going through the gate. Once he gets a ping, he tells the guards, and they stop the people from going through the gates before so and so procedures are taken. It is a lot easier than tracking down a vague description of a thief that was "this guy with black hair dressed in rags" in a city of hundreds to thousands.
And even without that very basic screening, would you let your typical adventuring party through the gate? A man covered in armor and wielding a sword as big as he is? A man with a bow, dozens of arrows, and a wolf the size of a horse? And none of them traveling as part of a trade caravan or special political delegation?
And now I remember the thing about actors. Quoting wikipedia (I know, sources, sources, but it still gives references on the site, and it is still relevant)
This is how the England's legal system treated people if silly clothes (admittedly, there was a weird religious thing involved). How would random mercenaries covered in dangerous magical items get treated? Wouldn't basic disguise checks and bluff checks be useful for smoothing things over?
The prevailing legal system in England[12] defined "masterless men" who travelled about the country as vagabonds, and subjected them to treatments of varying harshness. Local authorities tended to be more hostile than welcoming toward players; the Corporation of London, from the Lord Mayor and aldermen down, was famously hostile to acting troupes, as were the Puritans. Noble patronage was, at the very least, the legal fig leaf that allowed professional players to function in society.
Even in the example you showed, the key problem with the TSA system is a lack of centralization. I don't doubt that a system could be set up for these checks to be run at city entrances, but it would be hard to maintain and I think it would be an unpopular decision to make in some instances. Just spitballing, but I can imagine the potion, magic arms and armor, and wondrous item merchants would be annoyed that your cities didn't let adventurers inside.
Remember that until the 16th century or so, countries did not have standing armies because they were expensive, at least not in the same way that they had them a few centuries later. Traveling was dangerous because nobility couldn't always (or chose not to) afford to properly police the roads. A professional guard of this scale would be similarly, if not more expensive for a city to afford. I think the irony of the situation is that the cities who could afford to run these kind of checks would find the mission impossible, and cities who could find these checks possible too expensive or not worth the money.
To use the example of a typical Italian citystate during the 14th and 15th centuries:
Could they afford, with the additional revenue from magical potions, weapons, wondrous items, wands, etc. to pay for TSA-style checks at their city gates? Hell yes. They might even be able to, on the city level, maintain enough of a presence to keep corruption low. Those state could even afford, to some degree, some semblance of a professional military force.
Would it even be possible to run those checks? Nope. Every person coming into the city's borders would need to wait a few minutes to be checked by a wizard and a couple of guards. Every single sailor, merchant, clergyman, artisan, noble, adventurer, or peasant would need to be checked, day or night. It's just unfeasible for a city that large.
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Bribing, intimidating, and fast talking all sound like diplomacy, intimidate, and bluff to me...
Which still doesn't mean that magic wouldn't do it better. The apprentice mage is going to have a will save of what, +3? I can easily charm the socks off him and walk right past him -- think of Obi-wan Kenobi.
It just means that you've -- literally -- reinvented the TSA. You've spent a ton of money and inconvenienced a huge number of people to create security measures that are going to be totally ineffective.
I wouldn't say the time thing is a problem for detect magic. A couple minutes of questioning by a guard should at least tell you if there is a ping worthy of further searching.
A couple of minutes? Do you have any idea how much traffic goes through the gates of even a small town on market day?
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Exactly. As stated above I'm just giving an example of what they are likely to do with people who you haven't met, have no papers, and no allegiances that benefit them (remember you're hear to ruin the barons day and steal the princess). Local merchants attached to well known guilds with all the proper paperwork can probably skate through in an hour or less on average since they have all the right papers, are well known, and are licensed to carry some or all of that crap since it is useful to their job (charm person is an easy way to handle bandits etc.).
An hour or less on average? Are you crazy?
You'll never have a market day again. Literally. If you have ten merchants all of whom want to buy or sell at your weekly market -- local merchants attached to well-known guilds with all the proper paperwork, mind you, so they've probably been doing this for a decade -- the last two in line will not be able to set up their stall.
You have just destroyed your town's economy. If you can't grow it or make it locally, it no longer exists.
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Even in the example you showed, the key problem with the TSA system is a lack of centralization. I don't doubt that a system could be set up for these checks to be run at city entrances, but it would be hard to maintain and I...How would it be hard? Assuming that there were basic city walls, it would be easy enough just to post a bored wizard apprentice to cast detect magic one everyone going through the gate. Once he gets a ping, he tells the guards, and they stop the people from going through the gates before so and so procedures are taken. It is a lot easier than tracking down a vague description of a thief that was "this guy with black hair dressed in rags" in a city of hundreds to thousands.
And even without that very basic screening, would you let your typical adventuring party through the gate? A man covered in armor and wielding a sword as big as he is? A man with a bow, dozens of arrows, and a wolf the size of a horse? And none of them traveling as part of a trade caravan or special political delegation?
And now I remember the thing about actors. Quoting wikipedia (I know, sources, sources, but it still gives references on the site, and it is still relevant)
This is how the England's legal system treated people if silly clothes (admittedly, there was a weird religious thing involved). How would random mercenaries covered in dangerous magical items get treated? Wouldn't basic disguise checks and bluff checks be useful for smoothing things over?
The prevailing legal system in England[12] defined "masterless men" who travelled about the country as vagabonds, and subjected them to treatments of varying harshness. Local authorities tended to be more hostile than welcoming toward players; the Corporation of London, from the Lord Mayor and aldermen down, was famously hostile to acting troupes, as were the Puritans. Noble patronage was, at the very least, the legal fig leaf that allowed professional players to function in society.
...just a side note: discussing economy in this game is weird. We are discussing the transport of magical armor and weapons worth thousands upon thousands of gold, and yet at the same time we are talking about hhow someone can't afford to pay 5 sp a day to fire two guys with spears and a wizard community college drop out to start at things after waving his hands and saying some silly words.
And this is after each wagon has to pay the 5 copper gate toll. (back to my main argument, I would think that you could do a basic pinging while the merchant fumbled with his coins; if the mage gets blinded and screams while looking, I think it is time to check things out).
Not saying your arguments aren't valid... this is just the dissonance with 'PC prices' and the much more reasonable things they shoved into the 'goods and services' section.
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You know, all this talk about rulers trying to severely curtail magic and the activities of adventurer types suggest to me two more likely outcomes:
1. Pissing off powerful spell casters is bad for your long term health.. The first moderate level caster severely inconvenienced can ensure a change of government by leaving you to live out the rest of your days as a squirrel far far away. He then negotiates something more sensible with your successor.
2. Pissing off powerful adventurers causes them to leave you alone. Your city no longer has magically powerful people protecting it which is unfortunate when a dragon or beholder or lich or something turns up looking to crate a new empire for itself. Furthermore the adventurers you annoy take themselves, their gold and their business to your neighbours causing your economy to collapse.
Neither strike me as terribly good outcomes.
1. You're assuming that governments don't want to have wizards, sorcerers, or other magic slinging who's who's in their midst. That's clearly false, they do want wizards and their magical know how they just don't want other peoples wizards roaming around. Kingdoms and empires will have their own slew of mages that they pay to do pretty much anything they want the same way real world governments pay scientists, mathematicians, and spies to basically do their profession and give their stuff to the governments. Hell they've been doing this since time immemorial when the Romans were fighting the Carthaginians they specifically told their guys to capture Archimedes so that they could recruit them to their side. This process is repeated all through history from the aforementioned Archimedes to the Nazi scientists and Japanese scientists of 731, governments give them a pass, recruit them, and pay them so that they can use their powers to their own ends. So again, this isn't an issue of no one is allowed to have magic, it's that no one is allowed to have unauthorized magic (aka you who does not have declared loyalties to me, pay taxes for the right, or is under direct command of the crown).
2. If adventurers are your main source of income you have a really wonky kingdom economy. Most countries don't rely on adventurers for their income its from manufactured goods, agriculture, trade, or sometimes even faith but never just straight up adventurers. Hell most adventurers are hired directly by one of the aforementioned groups specifically so they can get back to doing said thing. Farmers hire you to clear out the Ankhegs so they can go back to farming, merchants hire you on so that they can protect THIER GOODS first and foremost, and kings hire you to kill crazy cultists so they don't interrupt their tax flow. I mean it literally says in the Inner Sea world guide that
"...trade powers the nations that rest upon the rocky shores of the Inner Sea. Golarion’s most powerful
trading nations launch thousands of merchant fleets every week into the salty, wind-tossed waters that link the massive Arcadian Ocean to the stormy Obari Ocean.
That means the adventurers the players are playing are not the national economy so much as one of the many small tools that said countries use to keep the wheels turning be it fighting insurrection, protecting goods, or killing troublesome trolls that keep eating the peasents cattle.
Also, just as a thought experiment, what about a port city, which might get most of its incoming trade via sea routes. I'd imagine that inspections might be much easier to pull off without hampering the market then.
I'll admit, I know little of medieval commercial commerce... but how many people are experts?
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...Even in the example you showed, the key problem with the TSA system is a lack of centralization. I don't doubt that a system could be set up for these checks to be run at city entrances, but itHow would it be hard? Assuming that there were basic city walls, it would be easy enough just to post a bored wizard apprentice to cast detect magic one everyone going through the gate. Once he gets a ping, he tells the guards, and they stop the people from going through the gates before so and so procedures are taken. It is a lot easier than tracking down a vague description of a thief that was "this guy with black hair dressed in rags" in a city of hundreds to thousands.
And even without that very basic screening, would you let your typical adventuring party through the gate? A man covered in armor and wielding a sword as big as he is? A man with a bow, dozens of arrows, and a wolf the size of a horse? And none of them traveling as part of a trade caravan or special political delegation?
And now I remember the thing about actors. Quoting wikipedia (I know, sources, sources, but it still gives references on the site, and it is still relevant)
This is how the England's legal system treated people if silly clothes (admittedly, there was a weird religious thing involved). How would random mercenaries covered in dangerous magical items get treated? Wouldn't basic disguise checks and bluff checks be useful for smoothing things over?
The prevailing legal system in England[12] defined "masterless men" who travelled about the country as vagabonds, and subjected them to treatments of varying harshness. Local authorities tended to be more hostile than welcoming toward players; the Corporation of London, from the Lord Mayor and aldermen down, was famously hostile to acting troupes, as were the Puritans. Noble patronage was, at the very least, the legal fig leaf that allowed professional players to function in society.
What he said. Seriously it is way cheaper to hire some goons, a few low level wizards (or even sorcs! they get more 0 lvl spells per day and would probably be more useful in this circumstance) and still be way cheaper then that +2 belt you are trying to smuggle in and can probably pay for them for the next 10 years when they sell it to a mercenary outfit or other group across the ocean or to those with that special dispensation to own them I was talking about before because someone thought the words "But I'm an adventurer" beats the laws of the land.
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...just a side note: discussing economy in this game is weird.
It is a problem, and a frustrating part of 3.X games. Especially once each character in a party starts carrying around a wealthy Barony's GNP on them at all times in the form of their gear, and can create 10,000 GP worth of material at a moment's notice it seems kind of silly.
We are discussing the transport of magical armor and weapons worth thousands upon thousands of gold, and yet at the same time we are talking about how someone can't afford to pay 5 sp a day to fire two guys with spears and a wizard community college drop out to start at things after waving his hands and saying some silly words.
And this is after each wagon has to pay the 5 copper gate toll. (back to my main argument, I would think that you could do a basic pinging while the merchant fumbled with his coins; if the mage gets blinded and screams while looking, I think it is time to check things out).
Not saying your arguments aren't valid... this is just the dissonance with 'PC prices' and the much more reasonable things they shoved into the 'goods and services' section.
The problem isn't paying the people at the gates that small fee. It's hiring people of high enough caliber that they could actually stop a moderate level caster from getting into the city (or delay them long enough to get help), and having them everywhere. It's also paying people enough that a "small" 25GP bribe wouldn't be enough get past any guards in the city. It's also paying the people who watch the guards to check for corruption and inefficiencies. It's as much a monetary commitment as it is one of manpower for a city.
*sidenote* I hate the quote system of this forum. Cut off the beginning of a post, not the end, please.
Also, just as a thought experiment, what about a port city, which might get most of its incoming trade via sea routes. I'd imagine that inspections might be much easier to pull off without hampering the market then.
I'll admit, I know little of medieval commercial commerce... but how many people are experts?
...trading nations launch thousands of merchant fleets every week into the salty, wind-tossed waters that link the massive Arcadian Ocean to the stormy Obari Ocean.
Let's say that each "fleet" is only 3 ships, and that only 500 fleets are going to a port city during a week (71 a day), and that each ship has only 15 people on it.
Over the course of a week. That's 22,500 people (over 3000 daily) coming into the city over the course of a week, who all want to arrive, maybe act like sailors in port, and then quickly depart
...just a side note: discussing economy in this game is weird.It is a problem, and a frustrating part of 3.X games. Especially once each character in a party starts carrying around a wealthy Barony's GNP on them at all times in the form of their gear, and can create 10,000 GP worth of material at a moment's notice it seems kind of silly.
We are discussing the transport of magical armor and weapons worth thousands upon thousands of gold, and yet at the same time we are talking about how someone can't afford to pay 5 sp a day to fire two guys with spears and a wizard community college drop out to start at things after waving his hands and saying some silly words.
And this is after each wagon has to pay the 5 copper gate toll. (back to my main argument, I would think that you could do a basic pinging while the merchant fumbled with his coins; if the mage gets blinded and screams while looking, I think it is time to check things out).
Not saying your arguments aren't valid... this is just the dissonance with 'PC prices' and the much more reasonable things they shoved into the 'goods and services' section.
The problem isn't paying the people at the gates that small fee. It's hiring people of high enough caliber that they could actually stop a moderate level caster from getting into the city (or delay them long enough to get help), and having them everywhere. It's also paying people enough that a "small" 25GP bribe wouldn't be enough get past any guards in the city. It's also paying the people who watch the guards to check for corruption and inefficiencies. It's as much a monetary commitment as it is one of manpower for a city.
*sidenote* I hate the quote system of this forum. Cut off the beginning of a post, not the end, please.
Oh, I never entirely said it had to be an effective system. This whole argument about the barony has been getting a bit bloated and taken use away from the magic/skills discussion.
So for that, I'd say that an effective diplomacy check would be the difference between bribing them and them taking the bribe and reporting you anyway. And sense motive would mean you would notice that they decided to do that.
Sure, you could cast a charm or suggestion on them...but we already mentioned the oh so unbribable guy watching from the top of an unseen watch tower, haven't we? It doesn't matter whether it is an effective method in general against magical entry. It only takes one guy seeing one time and the party has messed up and have the entire city guard charging down the street. But bribes and diplomacy prevent most suspicion entirely.
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...just a side note: discussing economy in this game is weird.It is a problem, and a frustrating part of 3.X games. Especially once each character in a party starts carrying around a wealthy Barony's GNP on them at all times in the form of their gear, and can create 10,000 GP worth of material at a moment's notice it seems kind of silly.
We are discussing the transport of magical armor and weapons worth thousands upon thousands of gold, and yet at the same time we are talking about how someone can't afford to pay 5 sp a day to fire two guys with spears and a wizard community college drop out to start at things after waving his hands and saying some silly words.
And this is after each wagon has to pay the 5 copper gate toll. (back to my main argument, I would think that you could do a basic pinging while the merchant fumbled with his coins; if the mage gets blinded and screams while looking, I think it is time to check things out).
Not saying your arguments aren't valid... this is just the dissonance with 'PC prices' and the much more reasonable things they shoved into the 'goods and services' section.
The problem isn't paying the people at the gates that small fee. It's hiring people of high enough caliber that they could actually stop a moderate level caster from getting into the city (or delay them long enough to get help), and having them everywhere. It's also paying people enough that a "small" 25GP bribe wouldn't be enough get past any guards in the city. It's also paying the people who watch the guards to check for corruption and inefficiencies. It's as much a monetary commitment as it is one of manpower for a city.
*sidenote* I hate the quote system of this forum. Cut off the beginning of a post, not the end, please.
Oh, I never entirely said it had to be an effective system. This whole argument about the barony has been getting a bit bloated and taken use away from the magic/skills discussion.
So for...
Yeah this kind of seems to be the point that I'm making is that if you start to factor in that any mortal that a party with access to these spells would have easy countermeasures in place that would require people to figure out how to work without or around them. I mean we literally just watched as many detractors literally PUT FORTH RESPONSES THAT INVOLVE HEAVY USE OF SKILLS including myself which kind of helps make the point. Skills are useful you just need to make sure that
1. You don't let player magic run rampant as the "this is the answer to everything" response.and
2. make sure that players don't completely invest in skill power to the exclusion of other talents.
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I sort of feel like this kind of "half-solution" isn't totally satisfying. I mean, sure, it maybe makes skills more important than spells in town, if you can make it believable, but as soon as the party goes into the wilderness or a dungeon or whatever, it's back to skills being quickly obsoleted.
If you want to nerf magic instead of buffing skills, I'd rather do that in the form of houserules targeting the offending spells. Like, maybe invisibility doesn't give you a flat +20 to stealth: maybe it gives +1 per rank the recipient has. That way, casting it on the rogue is awesome, and casting it on yourself is a lot less so.
Also, just as a thought experiment, what about a port city, which might get most of its incoming trade via sea routes. I'd imagine that inspections might be much easier to pull off without hampering the market then.I'll admit, I know little of medieval commercial commerce... but how many people are experts?
...trading nations launch thousands of merchant fleets every week into the salty, wind-tossed waters that link the massive Arcadian Ocean to the stormy Obari Ocean.Let's say that each "fleet" is only 3 ships, and that only 500 fleets are going to a port city during a week (71 a day), and that each ship has only 15 people on it.
Over the course of a week. That's 22,500 people (over 3000 daily) coming into the city over the course of a week, who all want to arrive, maybe act like sailors in port, and then quickly depart
According to Wikipedia the Port of London, at that time the busiest in the world, was handling about 12,000 coastal vessels and about 3500 interntional ships per year around the end of the 18th century (the large majority of which would still have been relatively smaller ships, trading over short routes e.g. to the Baltic).
These are definitely not medieval shipping numbers however. In medieval shipping, small boats were even more the rule even in international trade (and good luck keeping track of a bunch of small time peasant traders). Less so in the Age of Sail where larger and easier to track ships were sailed. Numbers of vessels in medieval times are obviously hard to come by.
Golarion is pretty Age of Sail, though, and not too medieval. For Age of Sail long distance sailing numbers (somewhat comparable to the Golarion Acadian Ocean-Obari Ocean route that you mention), the Dutch East India Company (which outsailed the rest of Europe combined) sent 4,785 voyages to Asia in total for the period 1602-1796, or 24 ships per year on average.
Large merchant ships completing a voyage tended to stay in port for a good long time. If your turnaround time is very fast, you are probably a small coastal vessel with a crew size countable on fingers.
At a further point of the historical timeline, while there is little good evidence of the size of the overall ancient Roman merchant fleet, estimates of the volume of shipping directed to Rome (mostly estimated with reference to the grain dole) tend to run in the low thousands per year of vessels. Like London this is the capital of a vast empire astride the largest trade routes of its time, though, not a typical port.
Yes and I houserule that doesn't exist. If your a master craftsman you can make amazing things but you can't make something magical. There should have been an in my game at the start of that sentence I'm not sure where it went.5) On the subject of crafting if you can't do magic you can't make a magic item and thats it. Howerr I have taken...Not by Game rules.
FEAT: Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level.You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Chapter 15). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
I think someone hates martials. And probably rogues to.
Because this is really what they need. A good swift quick while their already paying twice as many feats for not even the full benefit of one. (Sarcasm)
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Seriously, everyone who says skills are useless are concentrating on a campaign that makes such skills useless
Knock that off. Its as insulting as it is patently untrue.
I think it is even more intellectually insulting to say that magic counters skill use, when magic has easy counters that doesn't affect skill use.Seriously, everyone who says skills are useless are concentrating on a campaign that makes such skills uselessKnock that off. Its as insulting as it is patently untrue.
Not really. At the end of the day the only thing that can fight magic is magic. So... ya, I recommend you listen to Uncle.
Also, just as a thought experiment, what about a port city, which might get most of its incoming trade via sea routes. I'd imagine that inspections might be much easier to pull off without hampering the market then.I'll admit, I know little of medieval commercial commerce... but how many people are experts?
...trading nations launch thousands of merchant fleets every week into the salty, wind-tossed waters that link the massive Arcadian Ocean to the stormy Obari Ocean.Let's say that each "fleet" is only 3 ships, and that only 500 fleets are going to a port city during a week (71 a day), and that each ship has only 15 people on it.
Over the course of a week. That's 22,500 people (over 3000 daily) coming into the city over the course of a week, who all want to arrive, maybe act like sailors in port, and then quickly depart
According to Wikipedia the Port of London, at that time the busiest in the world, was handling about 12,000 coastal vessels and about 3500 interntional ships per year around the end of the 18th century (the large majority of which would still have been relatively smaller ships, trading over short routes e.g. to the Baltic).
These are definitely not medieval shipping numbers however. In medieval shipping, small boats were even more the rule even in international trade (and good luck keeping track of a bunch of small time peasant traders). Less so in the Age of Sail where larger and easier to track ships were sailed. Numbers of vessels in medieval times are obviously hard to come by.
Golarion is pretty Age of Sail, though, and not too medieval. For Age of Sail long distance sailing numbers (somewhat comparable to the Golarion Acadian Ocean-Obari Ocean route that you mention), the Dutch East India Company (which outsailed the rest of Europe combined) sent 4,785 voyages to Asia in total for the period 1602-1796, or 24 ships per year on average.
Large merchant ships...
That's a lower number than I would expect, but those are cool numbers anyway. Thanks for the info.
Not really. At the end of the day the only thing that can fight magic is magic. So... ya, I recommend you listen to Uncle.But the person countering them doesn't have to be a magic user, just a regular guy who is using an item created by a Master Craftsman.
An item which is magical?
Good luck countering magic with a magical item, when the opposition (SURPRISE!) has the magic to counter that while you... don't. Magic. Must. Fight. Magic.
I'm really very very in favor of more "epic" skill uses at higher skill ranks. If you have 15 Ranks in Escape Artist I expect you to be able to escape from a bar-less version of Forcecage. And if you have 15 Rank in Heal I expect to bring the recently dead back to life.
Not really. At the end of the day the only thing that can fight magic is magic. So... ya, I recommend you listen to Uncle.But the person countering them doesn't have to be a magic user, just a regular guy who is using an item created by a Master Craftsman.An item which is magical?
An item which may be magical, but created without a single caster being required. Heck, Master Craftsman might be a required feat for any craft guild if you want to be taken seriously as a master of their field.
In other words, Spell Casters and their spells can be countered by common folk.
Except for the fact they have the magic counter your trinkets, while you don't, sure. But that's a pretty big "except".
I was actually thinking "within a few minutes", but I would be ok with 48 hours. Maybe 1 hour per rank?
Not really. At the end of the day the only thing that can fight magic is magic. So... ya, I recommend you listen to Uncle.But the person countering them doesn't have to be a magic user, just a regular guy who is using an item created by a Master Craftsman.An item which is magical?
An item which may be magical, but created without a single caster being required. Heck, Master Craftsman might be a required feat for any craft guild if you want to be taken seriously as a master of their field.
In other words, Spell Casters and their spells can be countered by common folk.
If you're argument is that a magic item is what should be used to counter magic, you're not really proving that magic shouldn't be fought by magic. You're kind of showing that the opposite is true.
Except for the fact they have the magic counter your trinkets, while you don't, sure. But that's a pretty big "except".But did you counter 'all' the items being used by the guards at the gates? Two or three guards might be doing inspections, all of which using equipment that was given to them at the start of their shift.
Actually yes, I can counter ALL the guards with magic. It's called Magic Aura and its a level 1 spell... Also Mind Blank at later levels.
Edit: For clarity and more info.
Umm... There is no aura, so they detect nothing. Thus you get in just fine. Seriously reading is tech.
Ok.. so I can't sneak in an artifact, but I can sneak in everything else. As far as the guards know all I have is non-magical masterwork gear with no magic aura. So can I safely assume you are conceding the point?
Sure if they cast Identify on all of the items the guards will get a save (Which they have what +3 to? Against your best stat, good luck!). But with only Detect Magic itself, the guards will get no save against Magic Aura. Also Magic Aura lasts 1/day per level, so ya you are not getting caught without it. Seriously, your argument is incredibly weak.
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I said it earlier in the thread, but I think it bears repeating:
Magic is wonderfully useful. Its great, no adventuring party should be without it.
Always depending on magic only, to the exclusion of everything else, is grotesquely stupid and staggeringly suicidal.
Using a limited resource to do exactly the same thing that could be done without it is also exceedingly stupid and wasteful.
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Magic isn't really a limited resource after level 7 though. And it gets progressively less so.
Except it specifically says in the first line it doesn't. The second line requires that a second spell be cast. You can rule otherwise, but that interpretation seems weak at best. And again, low level guards are gonna have terrible Will and your casting stat is going to be your best stat. Tack on Heighten (might as well since it last for days) and those guards don't have a prayer.
Should the guards actually succeed they are just going to get charmed/dominated/killed before anyone knows whats going on.