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I have a friend who is considering building a Scarred Witch Doctor Half-Orc PC, eventually going into the Hellknight Signifer Prestige Class.
Even more difficult, is doing it with a 15 point buy.
Both he, and I, are wondering though, is this doable/viable?
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Well, you need medium armor proficiency, which is going to eat up feats. My suggestion for this path would be to take a level or 2 of Ranger for the proficiencies and attack bonuses, plus the extra skills will help you qualify for the class as well. You could actually take Evil Outsider as your favored enemy type to help you with your qualification. If you take 2 levels, you can also get Shield Focus as a bonus feat and pick up a Darkwood or Mithril Buckler ASAP (shield bonus to AC that doesn't take up a hand for casting or hexing).
If you're thinking of STRAIGHT into Hell Knight, I wouldn't recommend it, but to each his own. Your spellcasting doesn't suffer, so you end up as a lightly armored witch without any hexes after you enter the prestige class, which SUCKS. I say, if you're going to go into a gish-prestige class, do it properly and pick up those ranger levels I mentioned. You'll be better armored without wasting feats, have better saves (+2/+3 to Fort AND Ref), and favored enemy Evil Outsiders is NEVER a bad thing.
I am not certain that the Scarred Witch Doctor is legal for play. The additional resources document states that you must actually be an orc, not merely have the orc blood racial trait. Some GMs will not consider the character to be PFS legal. I met one at a con this weekend.
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It's not for PFS.
If the Hair is the only natural attack, it is primary. This is RAW.
Magical Knack could help with lost caster levels, if a level, or two, dip is needed.
Please Note: For those not aware, the Hellknight Signifer PrC, is not the Hellknight PrC. One adavances caster levels, and one does not.
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It says specifically in the hex that it's a secondary attack thus it is a secondary attack regardless of what other pages say, or does a witch doctor use int for hexes?
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
Note the bolded portion.
So, as long as he has no other natural attack, the Prehensile Hair will use his full base attack bonus, and x1.5 constitution to damage.
You might consider a 1 level dip into Armored Hulk Barbarian. That covers your armor prerequisites and gives you Rage, which is great for when you need to mix it up in melee.
Also, Hexes, as Spell Like Abilities can be used in Rage without problem and get a nice DC boost as well. Depending on how your GM rules, even casting spells in Rage might be fine for a Scarred Witch Doctor/Barbarian because their spells are Con based (which means they don't fall under the blanket of "Int, Wis and Cha based skills and abilities can't be used while raging")
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Not arguing this.
I am right, as that is how my DM, and Developer Sean K. Reynolds views it.
See here.
Now, the Hex usually uses intelligence, but the constitution, in place of strength.
This is RAW.
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Fair enough, Sean K. Reynolds posted something that directly contradicts the "specific trumps general" rule (I guess it is a specific exception to the general rule, oh the irony). My fault for not reading through every post by Reynolds.
Still isn't RAW, though evidently RAI.
I disagree, but that is not relevant.
Have you any advice?
It is RAW and RAI. Specific trumps general has nothing to do with it. This isn't an exception to the normal rule, it is the normal rule. A secondary attack is, by rule, treated as a primary attack if there aren't any other attacks for it to be secondary to.
Now granted, it would make sense to perhaps have a reference to this rule in the witch's section, but word count is precious.
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You might consider a 1 level dip into Armored Hulk Barbarian. That covers your armor prerequisites and gives you Rage, which is great for when you need to mix it up in melee.
Also, Hexes, as Spell Like Abilities can be used in Rage without problem and get a nice DC boost as well. Depending on how your GM rules, even casting spells in Rage might be fine for a Scarred Witch Doctor/Barbarian because their spells are Con based (which means they don't fall under the blanket of "Int, Wis and Cha based skills and abilities can't be used while raging")
I highly doubt casting whilst Raging would be allowed.
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Well, the player is pretty set on two things.
One: Playing a Scarred Witch Doctor.
Two: Entering a Prestige Class.
I am really not sure why the PrC route is so desired, but I believe he just wants to give the Pathfinder PrCs a go.
He was an avid fan of 3.5 PrCs, and though Pathfinder PrCs are not nearly as strong, he still wants to try.
If Hellknight Signifer is unviable, then perhaps there is another PrC more viable for this class?
Is Human or Scion of Humanity Aasimar with Racial Heritage(Orc) a better choice?
Is Human or Scion of Humanity Aasimar with Racial Heritage(Orc) a better choice?
That one I think will depend on what prestige class is ultimately chosen.
Witch seems like a bad choice for prestiging from. Even prehensile hair's usable time per day is dependent on witch level, though I guess you could get about five minute long combats out of it if you went fifth level before multiclassing.
The other concern is going from a half-bab class to a three-quarter BAB class will put him at a BAB lower than a rogue, which I can't imagine will be terribly effective. And since the saves on Hexes are dependent on class level, that leaves only ones that have no saves or whose saves don't matter(like Evil Eye followed by Cackle).
Which brings up another thought. If the witch does go with something that requires maintenance via Cackle, does that mean they'll be having to focus on singular attacks when meleeing? That would mitigate the problem with the lower BAB a bit, but what does that leave you? Maneuvers? Vital Strike(on a 1d3, no less)?
There's a part of me that keeps saying that if he's going to be meleeing, I ought to suggest Eldritch Knight, but it's kind of a bland choice overall. I'm going to go spend some time on the SRD and see what I can come up with.
Winter Witch (requires you have the Winter Witch archetype, and you should check with your DM as to if a Fetish Mask can be "native to the frozen north")
I don't think you're technically allowed to combine the two archetypes since they alter the same feature, but since it's the only one they both alter, if the GM were cool with allowing it, I think Winter Witch would definitely be the prestige class to go with. Unless the melee focus is really what he wants to do.
Personally, if I were the one GMing, I'd say go with it. Then again, anything to get someone to play a Winter Witch.
Edit: Another thought. Witches get the full line of summon monster spells. Focusing on those in some way should keep the Witch viable regardless of whatever else he decides to do. Blackfire adept might be an interesting route to go with those, though the loss of caster levels might make that painful. What are the GM's thoughts on use of Esoteric Training?
I think Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge would be the prestige classes to go for, with the problem being that any prestige class is going to make his hexes worse. A 1 level dip into Cleric, Oracle or Fighter won't kill the build but it has to be focused on casting or melee. A hex centric build simply has no viable prestige class to keep DCs scaling. If the GM allows a hex to count for the without preparation prerequisite Dragon Disciple could give lots of hp and combat ability and be cool flavor wise. Tattooed Mystic is another way to go with lots of flavor that isn't too weak.
Just remember that Magical Knack only increases Caster Level, not the spells you can cast. It's good, but not that good.
ex. a cleric 1 / fighter 2 can't cast cure moderate wounds and doesnt get the extra 1st lvl / cantrip slots a lvl 3 cleric would get, but their cure light wounds do 1d8+3 as their caster level is 1+2 = 3
Esoteric Training, on the other hand...
I don't know what kind of power level everyone in the party is running, but for a higher powered one, I'm still favoring summoning(or Winter Witch pending GM approval to keep Hex DCs).
That said, now that Dragon Disciple has been brought up, I'm really liking the idea of a dragon witch(Flemeth!). Dip a level of sorcerer(hell, make it crossblooded) or bard then into DD. Bonus Con and Str from the prestige class. Orc already gets a good Str bonus. Eventually, the goto solution could be "First the transformation, then the face eating". With Esoteric training, you'd only lose out on one level of spellcaster. And if the GM's down with mixing Crossblooded and Wildblooded, there's always Pit-Touched to go with your Draconic, because who doesn't love free inherent Con bonus?
I cant find Esoteric Training anywhere on the SRD, nor have I heard of it before this. Can I get a link? It sounds like a useful feat.
The beauty is that it's not a feat. It's something you get for ranking up in a guild. This can be a double edged sword, since it means that you have to work with the GM to rank up in the guild.
It's also in Inner Sea Magic, so I'm not sure it'll be available online. About the best I can do is link to a thread where someone paraphrases it.
What about a PrC dip? Just one, or two levels.
That seems like it would be more viable. Loremaster, especially, gives up no spellcasting and, with a high enough Int, gets a free feat at first level(and even with only a +1 Int modifier, could get Toughness for free, since we know how poor his HP is gonna be :P). Two levels gets a Bardic Knowledge equivalent.
The downsides are that he'll be stuck taking three either Metamagic or Item Creation feats(neither choice being a bad idea for a caster anyway) and a Skill Focus. Also, I'm not sure how witches are for divination spells off the top of my head.
I have a couple other thoughts, but I can't remember how good they would be for dipping off the top of my head. I'll double check and be back in a bit.
Damn, just missed the edit window. As I tried to say but it got lost in the edit:
There's nothing I like beyond Loremaster for a small dip without at least Eclectic Training to mitigate a single level of lost spellcasting. With it, Pathfinder Savant(from Seeker of Secrets) intrigues me as a three level dip. You lose three levels of Hex growth, but gain two spells from ANY spell list to add to your own and get to use scrolls with your caster level. I love that kind of versatility, so it might almost make up for losing those three levels of hex growth. And you gain a few other things, which are also kind of nice.
The item creation feat will be a hard sell.
The Scribe Scroll for Savant, or you mean the Loremaster thing? Because he could take metamagic feats instead if it's the latter.
Not taking witch levels is hard for a witch because hexes are such a big part of the class and very few PrCs will scale hexes.
If he's determined here's a crazy thought:
Take the Spell Hex as the 10th level major hex. This gives you a spell-like ability. Then he can go dragon disciple. 4 6 or 8 levels would be my choices of drop out points.
4 gives you +4 Str, breath weapon, some natural armor, a feat, some bloodline abilities and 19 caster level. You get 3 major hexes after spell hex naturally and of course can take extra hex feat for more.
6 gives you the +2 Con boost, blind sense, another bloodline feat, CL 18 and 2 major hexes.
8 gives you +2 int, FotD1 1/day, more armor, another feat, and 1 major hex. Still CL 18. If he wears a robe of arcane heritage, he's got 12 levels in dragon bloodline abilities for extra natural armor, energy resistance and another breath weapon.
Depending on where you drop off, your hex DC's will either be -2 or -3, so I'd suggest allowing ability focus for his primary offensive hex.
Delicious fright hex isn't awesome, but it's got nice draconic flavor.