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The Iliad begins with Achilles in a rage because he wasn't allowed to take both lovely twin sisters Briseis and Criseis as his slave girls. BOOM, gender politics!
Because as we all know, relationships, romance and even message have nothing to do with story. Are in fact all best avoided if you want good stories.Not if they are a distraction. Who the hell cares about these NPCs and why do these Mary Sue’s need to be front and center in every AP holding the players hands?
They're...not. Not really at all. As far as making them 'romance options' go, Paizo has never done significantly more than noting that they might be open to such an advance. Past their introductions, their specific actions in an AP are generally left very vague. That was some people's major complaint about Jade Regent, actually (besides caravan rules being FUBAR)--it billed itself in part on the regular NPCs, but devoted little space within the pages of the AP to developing those characters.
I care about the NPCs because they are *part of the story* and *part of the world*, and the more I know about their backstory, personality, and desires, the better a GM can present a living, breathing world populated by actual people.
Let's take the tone down a notch, please. There's zero reason to call other posters in this thread stupid.
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Let's define 'too common'.
LGBT represents approximately 3.8% of the population. I think its safe to say that among gamers that number is probably a little higher.
In the last two AP's, the last seven books thus far, we've had three LGBT couples front and center, meaning that they and their relationships were important enough to warrant detailed descriptions among the few NPC full page spreads in the back. 3 in 7 books, compared to how many hetero couples getting the same treatment in the same time frame? Any?
I can see the why people are saying that its starting to become a little too much, that its pouring over from simple inclusion into a pretty strong agenda push. As a woman, I personally don't see anything wrong with the occasional scantily clad girl or 'traditional' relationship... there are straight guys in the gaming community as well, no? I would hate to think that they - the vast majority of the gaming population - are welcome at Paizo's table only if they 'toe the progressive line'.
Very often we portray discrimination not as something active or even deliberate, but simply something that occurs automatically due to privilege, as the simple, inevitable result of a group being in the minority and therefor excluded from the larger group through poor representation. Well, politically, socially and now even in gaming circles, it seems like its becoming the default position that if you're a straight, white, male then you have something to prove when you sit down at the table... something women, blacks, gays or whomever else doesn't have to because they've been grandfathered in by sole virtue of being 'in the minority'. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with being in the racial, sexual or gender majority, and I'd hate to think we're getting to the point where we presume there is, because once we reach that point, we're doing EXACTLY the same thing we have have felt victimized by in the past.
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Let's define 'too common'.
LGBT represents approximately 3.8% of the population. I think its safe to say that among gamers that number is probably a little higher.
In the last two AP's, the last seven books thus far, we've had three LGBT couples front and center, meaning that they and their relationships were important enough to warrant detailed descriptions among the few NPC full page spreads in the back. 3 in 7 books, compared to how many hetero couples getting the same treatment in the same time frame? Any?
I can see the why people are saying that its starting to become a little too much, that its pouring over from simple inclusion into a pretty strong agenda push.
That use of percentages assumes an even distribution within the overall population, which isn't necessarily the case.
To repeat an example I've used before, trans people are estimated to represent around 0.3% of the population (according to a 2011 study by the Williams Institute at UCLA (see page i of the Executive Summary in this report)).
If you're going to assume that an even distribution is present at all times and at all scales (as you're doing with the recent APs), that means if I'm standing in a room (for example) and I'm transgender (which I am), another transgender person couldn't enter the room unless about 600 other people entered first. I couldn't even enter the room in the first place until around 300 people were there. (For LGBT people in general, using the 3.8% number, change 600 and 300 to 52 and 26, respectively.)
I've stood in a room with other trans people where the overall population of the room was much, much less than 600. I've stood in a room with other LGBT people where the population was less than 52. Were we "too common" in those cases? Should one of us have exited the room? Should the non-trans or non-LGBT people have started complaining?
Obviously, things don't work like that. The real world doesn't work like that. Why should Golarion?
Or, to circle back to gaming, basing things on strict adherence to percentages would mean that each time a trans NPC is published, Paizo would need to publish a little over 300 more NPCs before they could publish another trans character. (Or to go with LGBT NPCs overall, 26 more characters.) Again, that's kind of ridiculous.
In the real world, we exist where we exist. Sometimes, on a local scale, we exist in numbers greater than strict percentages would predict. Our distribution is heterogeneous rather than homogenous. I'm sure it'd be the same in Golarion.
Well, politically, socially and now even in gaming circles, it seems like its becoming the default position that if you're a straight, white, male then you have something to prove when you sit down at the table... something women, blacks, gays or whomever else doesn't have to because they've been grandfathered in by sole virtue of being 'in the minority'. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with being in the racial, sexual or gender majority, and I'd hate to think we're getting to the point where we presume there is, because once we reach that point, we're doing EXACTLY the same thing we have have felt victimized by in the past.
I understand your concern, but pointing out historical disparities in representation, working against those disparities, or (as sometimes occurs in these discussions) pointing out privilege held by various majorities is not at all the same as saying there's something inherently wrong with being a member of one of those majorities. I don't think anyone in this thread who supports Paizo's work on characters of various minorities (racial, gender, LGBT) thinks that or has said that. At the very least, I'd bet the majority of people who get involved in these discussions don't think that, and I'd bet that Paizo feels the same.
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Let's define 'too common'.
LGBT represents approximately 3.8% of the population. I think its safe to say that among gamers that number is probably a little higher.
In the last two AP's, the last seven books thus far, we've had three LGBT couples front and center, meaning that they and their relationships were important enough to warrant detailed descriptions among the few NPC full page spreads in the back. 3 in 7 books, compared to how many hetero couples getting the same treatment in the same time frame? Any?
See, here's the problem with interpreting the statistics that way--the nature of the narrative is such that a character is only gay when specifically indicated--i.e., when their relationship and sexuality is front and center. Any character whose relationships and sexuality is *not* front and center is presumed straight by default.
It's the same reason it's disingenuous to ask why 'whitewashing' casting practices are problematic, but it's OK for black actors to play 'white' roles. It's because there's almost no such thing as a 'white' or 'heterosexual' or 'male' or 'cisgendered' role. Those traits are so encoded into our minds as the 'default' that those are almost never defining traits of the character in question--their stories would not have to change if one or more of those traits were changed.
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In the last two AP's, the last seven books thus far, we've had three LGBT couples front and center, meaning that they and their relationships were important enough to warrant detailed descriptions among the few NPC full page spreads in the back. 3 in 7 books, compared to how many hetero couples getting the same treatment in the same time frame? Any?
Well, one of "the last two APs" is only, what, two books in? So...maybe looking at Reign of Winter and WotR, leaving Mummy's Mask aside would be a better bet.
And actually, looking at two consecutive APs, even the two most recent, in isolation is silly. The APs have two different developers, alternating, so any two contiguous APs are always gonna be examples of parallel development to some degree...meaning that things like the nature of specific couples probably aren't gonna be coordinated.
The correct thing to do is look at all the APs, and see how common LGBT couples are. Having just looked through Legacy of Fire, CotCT, Serpent's Skull and WotR...Serpent's Skull lacks any LGBT couples, CotCT has one villainous one, Legacy of Fire has a woman who could be fiend or foe with a harem of dopplegangers who present as female (I guess that counts), and WotR has two heroic LGBT couples. That's...about an average of one couple per AP, which, given the number of people detailed in a full AP...is probably somewhere around 5% or so. And I'm pretty sure that's actually higher than the actual average, as I haven't heard anything about LGBT couples in Carrion Crown, Council of Thieves, Jade Regent, Kingmaker, Second Darkness, or Shattered Star.
I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of those had one, but I'm pretty sure WotR is the only one so far with two major LGBT couples, and I'm also pretty sure not all of them have such a couple...making the actual numbers lower than 5%...and around the average people keep citing.
And some of the modern numbers on LGBT people are probably culturally biased. A lot of it is from surveys, and in today's culture a lot of people on the LGBT spectrum probably suppress those feelings and aren't willing to admit to them even in an anonymous survey...which means that in a world like Golarion where there's no stigma attached, the number is likely to be somewhat higher. And before anyone asks, yes I know there are various testing tools to make peoples' unwillingness to come forward with particular information less relevant...but none are perfect.
All that aside...who cares if there are slightly statistically high numbers of gay NPCs? Speaking as a straight guy, I feel perfectly content with the large number of positively portrayed straight (or possibly straight) characters in the APs, and feel welcomed by the large number of attractive and romance-able female NPCs, and various other things involved that cater at least as much to my sexual orientation as they do to any other. Gay characters don't do me a bit of harm, even if there are a few more of them than might be expected statistically.
Now, straight women might have a bit more issues with a few things involving romance specifically...but that's a separate issue from LGBT characters, and indeed so much a separate issue I started a thread on it.
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Let's define 'too common'.
LGBT represents approximately 3.8% of the population. I think its safe to say that among gamers that number is probably a little higher.
In the last two AP's, the last seven books thus far, we've had three LGBT couples front and center, meaning that they and their relationships were important enough to warrant detailed descriptions among the few NPC full page spreads in the back. 3 in 7 books, compared to how many hetero couples getting the same treatment in the same time frame? Any?
I can see the why people are saying that its starting to become a little too much, that its pouring over from simple inclusion into a pretty strong agenda push. As a woman, I personally don't see anything wrong with the occasional scantily clad girl or 'traditional' relationship... there are straight guys in the gaming community as well, no? I would hate to think that they - the vast majority of the gaming population - are welcome at Paizo's table only if they 'toe the progressive line'.
Very often we portray discrimination not as something active or even deliberate, but simply something that occurs automatically due to privilege, as the simple, inevitable result of a group being in the minority and therefor excluded from the larger group through poor representation. Well, politically, socially and now even in gaming circles, it seems like its becoming the default position that if you're a straight, white, male then you have something to prove when you sit down at the table... something women, blacks, gays or whomever else doesn't have to because they've been grandfathered in by sole virtue of being 'in the minority'. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with being in the racial, sexual or gender majority, and I'd hate to think we're getting to the point where we presume there is, because once we reach that point, we're doing EXACTLY the same thing we have have felt victimized by in the past.
Frankly, I’m a bit confused. What agenda is being pushed, exactly? I’m honestly just not in the mood to dig through the “Homosexuality in Golarion” thread to extract one of James Jacobs’ pronouncements on the matter, but as I understand it, the idea is to make sure that LGBT folks are represented, while telling interesting stories. What “progressive line” are people being asked to toe apart from accepting the idea that in a fantasy world that developed radically differently from our real world there might not be any widespread objection to homosexuality, and that trans* people too might have it a bit easier where magic might mitigate the “real woman/man” balderdash? I don’t think anything more progressive is expected than not arguing the point around the game table, and I don’t think I want to game with people for whom that’s too much to ask.
In terms of over-representation, things get a bit weird. For example, if Paizo wants to be sure to include LGBT characters, how many people collect enough material that they’re bound to see one? Should Paizo really do a quota? Every X straight and/or cis characters, they can put in one LGBT character? Should they make it a selling point, letting people know that if they want to see an LGBT character, they should wait for product Y? To me, that would seem even more obtrusive.
Also, given what NPCs do in RPG material, I’m not sure representation wouldn’t be an issue for any demographic. In adventures in particular, any NPCs are likely to be more active and prominent, since there’s less room for scene-setting, and depending on how much of Paizo’s business the APs represent, that might make some characters much more visible. Conversely, reading things like city guides – to Korvosa, to Kaer Maga – I have a hard time remembering any LGBT characters, though I get the feeling I might be missing a few from the latter in particular. From the former, I remember a lot about noble families, which, by demographics, I myself imagined tended to survive from generation to generation through largely heterosexual pedigrees.
I don’t think the AP writers are trying to do more than write good stories while paying attention to the idea that Paizo likes it when their writers engage with the fact that there are LGBT people in Golarion. How else are they supposed to manage it in the APs? That’s not to say that there’s not room for more straight couples among significant NPCs, or intimations of the possibility of romance for straight female and gay male PCs – I think the evolving consensus in this thread and its spin-off is heading in that direction, which is a good thing, and the developers are taking notice.
Ultimately, I’m not sure what “straight, white, male [and female]” players are being asked to prove. To be blunt, if twelve-ish or so issues of such characters not being emphasized in the APs is enough for such players to feel that there’s a perception of it being wrong to be in that majority demographic, I have no idea what people in the minority who aren’t those things are supposed to feel about 30 or so years of a lack of representation in the materials of their hobby, to say nothing of wider culture. I’m not sure how LGBT-friendly a thing is if the answer comes back, “Expect to be disappointed 95% of the time, because that’s consistent with how common your lot actually is.” How much of a focus on relationships and gender does there have to be before the idea appears ridiculous?
I’m sorry if this is a bit sharp; I might be mistaking the point, or responding too much in the heat of the moment, and I apologize if that is the case. I’ve been well, truly, and tactfully ninja’ed by KSF, Revan, and Deadmanwalking, anyway, whose thoughtful contributions I’d like to point out.
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Because as we all know, relationships, romance and even message have nothing to do with story. Are in fact all best avoided if you want good stories.Not if they are a distraction. Who the hell cares about these NPCs and why do these Mary Sue’s need to be front and center in every AP holding the players hands?
Just off hand, I love this sort of stuff in my gaming and I don't find a distraction, but necessary to the game. Throw in a romance or throw in NPC's for me to get to know as people and always add in backstory and motivation! Why in the world people like playing games where the default answer to their GM is "I hit it/I spell it" is beyond my ability to comprehend. For me, it isn't enough to think, "I epic-ly saved the world" if I feel I had no stake in that world. Npc's give me that connection. I want to know that I saved someONE, not just someTHING. Another reason I enjoy Paizo.
I will add that while forcing the players to tie themselves to NPC's (a la Jade Regent) originally annoyed me, its due to those connections that my character in Jade Regent is now my favourite character of all time, and that I'm enjoying that game to the extent that I am. Paizo has proven to me that if we give it a chance, they will lead us to wonderful places and thus I am more than willing to place my trust in their knowledge of story for my games.
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Yeah, I'd be careful about trying to speak for what the "majority" thinks or wants or believes. You can speak for yourself as an individual, of course, but it's unwise to assume that just because you share characteristics like gender, race, orientation, etc. with someone else, you can speak for them.
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8.5 year necro is impressive.
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I see no problem here.
Since this is tabletop RPG, everything is basically decided by the GM.
For instance, as a GM, I decided to change the gender of several NPC's proposed by the APs. So several couples that I did not create became straight (except Ileosa and Irabeth and Anevia that I am very fond of).
Then I created other NPC and characters who are gay, but in a way that is appealing for my particular story, and that is within my control.
Same with the attractiveness of male and female characters. If I have straight female players, I will also create interesting male characters and NPC for them.
For exemple, on of the PC is playing an man suffering from amnesia, that is actually a woman (a truth that he will discover soon). Meanwhile he fell in love with a bisexual female NPC.
What I mean to say, since everything can be changed by the GM, there is no reason to feel rejected or being "not the target audience". Its your GM mission to make you feel as the target audience.
English not being my primary langage, I'm sorry if something is not super clear in what I said :D
You are quite clear. And largely correct.
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Reaching back almost a decade for queer discourse? To what end?
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I was really confused reading through this and how it was going on about WotR characters, I assumed it was people talking about the video game for a second, but nope 8 year old thread lol.
It'll be interesting to see what the actual rates of bisexuality/homosexuality are once it is no longer taboo. I've read articles estimating that upwards of 50% of ancient Greeks participated in what we'd call homosexual activities even if it wasn't a relationship/marriage as we know it today. I think it'll be a lot higher than the 10% (or less) touted today.