Why not pull the barbarian back, rather than make everyone else even more strong?
I woudl agree with this when dazing metamagic, fickle winds, blood money, simulacrum, planar binding, teleport subschool, saurian shaman, persistent spell and spell perfection get nerfed too.
Um, Greater beast totem much?I would restrict that power as it's intended to the natural attacks of the beast totem, none of this charging lance garbage.
The devs disagree with you on the intent.
Oh ok. More precisely we are talking crane wing right? The second feat in the chain?Yep. The others remain unchanged, I believe.
Well, crane riposte remains the same but not quite so, when everything is taken into consideration crane riposte is just weaker than before.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh ok. More precisely we are talking crane wing right? The second feat in the chain?Yep. The others remain unchanged, I believe.
OK thanks, I thought I missed something :D
Sorry for derail.
On topic, giving martials more ways to full attack and move is not my favorite way to address martial/caster disparity. It would take away a kind of chess-like tactical aspect of the way gridded combat runs that I actually really like.
Oh ok. More precisely we are talking crane wing right? The second feat in the chain?Yep. The others remain unchanged, I believe.OK thanks, I thought I missed something :D
Sorry for derail.
On topic, giving martials more ways to full attack and move is not my favorite way to address martial/caster disparity. It would take away a kind of chess-like tactical aspect of the way gridded combat runs that I actually really like.
So what is your solution to adjust martial class melee based that are so much weaker than their Archer/pounce companions? Or at a different level, casters.
A melee character out of 5 rounds might full attack once maybe twice. See the problem? 5-10 spells later. Or 25 arrows later? Charge to get close to a Balrog and what, where did he go with at will teleport? Melee has very few options except to go with pounce and dimensional savant to be relevant. It's why Archers and Pouncers are the only viable option late game.
A melee character out of 5 rounds might full attack once maybe twice. See the problem? 5-10 spells later. Or 25 arrows later? Charge to get close to a Balrog and what, where did he go with at will teleport? Melee has very few options except to go with pounce and dimensional savant to be relevant. It's why Archers and Pouncers are the only viable option late game.
I would prefer better options for single attack actions.
Oh ok. More precisely we are talking crane wing right? The second feat in the chain?Yep. The others remain unchanged, I believe.OK thanks, I thought I missed something :D
Sorry for derail.
On topic, giving martials more ways to full attack and move is not my favorite way to address martial/caster disparity. It would take away a kind of chess-like tactical aspect of the way gridded combat runs that I actually really like.
So what is your solution to adjust martial class melee based that are so much weaker than their Archer/pounce companions? Or at a different level, casters.
A melee character out of 5 rounds might full attack once maybe twice. See the problem? 5-10 spells later. Or 25 arrows later? Charge to get close to a Balrog and what, where did he go with at will teleport? Melee has very few options except to go with pounce and dimensional savant to be relevant. It's why Archers and Pouncers are the only viable option late game.
It is like no one payed attention to my earlier post at all!
We should care about catching people up to archer, pounce, AND mounted builds.
Design Manager
|
Martial classes who aren't mounted or archers should have options, or at least an option that consumes roughly the same amount of resource as the Barbarian. The Barbarian needs 3 Rage powers and must be 10th level to get Pounce, so I would say the easiest thing to do would be to create a 3-feat chain that culminates in the Pounce ability, while giving decent bonuses along the way. Since that particular chain would be an issue for some existing materials (Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack would look a bit silly with their extensive chains) the most likely option would be to just add one more feat to that chain.
You can move like the wind and unleash a hurricane of deadly blows.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, base attack bonus +10
Benefit:You gain the pounce special ability, allowing you to make a full attack at the end of a charge. In addition, you gain a +1 bonus to all attack rolls made as part of the charge.
That requires a certain level of investment but is doable by all classes and doesn't invalidate existing materials.
|
@Ssalarn:
That set of requirements is a little excessive, given that Kitsune can get Pounce with a whole 2 prerequisite Feats (as I noted in my first post). And Mounted Skirmisher only has 2 prerequisites as well (though that does require a higher level). 5 Feats just seems...unnecessary. I'd scrap the Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack prereqs leaving it with only 3 (and BAB +10) and making it grabbable with Dex 13 but no other stat requirements. That seems more fair, IMO.
|
Design Manager
|
@Ssalarn:
That set of requirements is a little excessive, given that Kitsune can get Pounce with a whole 2 prerequisite Feats (as I noted in my first post). And Mounted Skirmisher only has 2 prerequisites as well (though that does require a higher level). 5 Feats just seems...unnecessary. I'd scrap the Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack prereqs leaving it with only 3 (and BAB +10) and making it grabbable with Dex 13 but no other stat requirements. That seems more fair, IMO.
I know it's excessive, I was just shooting for a solution that could potentially see the light of day in an official product. I think making it an alternate cap to the Whirlwind tree would probably be fine though, so that it uses the same pre-reqs but a higher BAB and doesn't actually require Whirlwind Attack. I'd also have no problem with adding a "or monk level 10" line to the prereq.
I'd also considered a feat line that allowed you to treat your weapon as being larger than it actually is when you take an attack action, thus making Vital Strike more worthwhile.
I like Ssalarn's thing pretty well. It is a lot like what I mentioned earlier. Most of the prerequisites are fairly useful and it gives an option to those characters who do not have the pounce option already.
Note that I still want kitsunes and wacky pouncebarians to feel special, though. As such, I like that it is harder to get to than those abilities in some ways.
Oh ok. More precisely we are talking crane wing right? The second feat in the chain?Yep. The others remain unchanged, I believe.OK thanks, I thought I missed something :D
Sorry for derail.
On topic, giving martials more ways to full attack and move is not my favorite way to address martial/caster disparity. It would take away a kind of chess-like tactical aspect of the way gridded combat runs that I actually really like.
So what is your solution to adjust martial class melee based that are so much weaker than their Archer/pounce companions? Or at a different level, casters.
A melee character out of 5 rounds might full attack once maybe twice. See the problem? 5-10 spells later. Or 25 arrows later? Charge to get close to a Balrog and what, where did he go with at will teleport? Melee has very few options except to go with pounce and dimensional savant to be relevant. It's why Archers and Pouncers are the only viable option late game.
I do see the problem, but I see it more in theory then I do in actual play. Maybe because I don't play much high level? I really don't know. Archers in my group never seem to steal the show, I think I might use the environment rules more then some GM's and that seems to be a factor.
The pounce thing I have never been able to visualize with iterative attacks and my players seem to have the same mindset, so although the natural attacks are probably no worse of a way to go it's also a pretty specific concept so it isn't something that I see all the time over and over.
Other then that, I dunno, things just seem to work out. I'm really not sure why. I always expect to see these problems I read about (the arguments totally make sense) but when we play at home it's just not so bad.
I have definitely seen the problem. The problem is so great, that I usually build characters that are specifically designed to get melee characters to a fight (through coordinated charge or never building a sorcerer who does not have telekinetic charge. Telekinetic charge is far and away the most deadly 4th level spell in Pathfinder, btw)
|
Design Manager
|
The tank class I did for Dreamscarred's Magic of Incarnum conversion, the Daevic, was designed to use more caster like action economy, which is nice for new classes but doesn't provide a fix for older classes.
I think that this would probably be the the best backwards-compatible solution:
You can move like the wind and unleash a hurricane of deadly blows.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +10
Benefit:You gain the pounce special ability, allowing you to make a full attack at the end of a charge. In addition, you gain a +1 bonus to all attack rolls made as part of the charge.
Special: A monk may use his monk level in place of his monk BAB when qualifying for this feat.
Oh ok. More precisely we are talking crane wing right? The second feat in the chain?Yep. The others remain unchanged, I believe.OK thanks, I thought I missed something :D
Sorry for derail.
On topic, giving martials more ways to full attack and move is not my favorite way to address martial/caster disparity. It would take away a kind of chess-like tactical aspect of the way gridded combat runs that I actually really like.
So what is your solution to adjust martial class melee based that are so much weaker than their Archer/pounce companions? Or at a different level, casters.
A melee character out of 5 rounds might full attack once maybe twice. See the problem? 5-10 spells later. Or 25 arrows later? Charge to get close to a Balrog and what, where did he go with at will teleport? Melee has very few options except to go with pounce and dimensional savant to be relevant. It's why Archers and Pouncers are the only viable option late game.
I do see the problem, but I see it more in theory then I do in actual play. Maybe because I don't play much high level? I really don't know. Archers in my group never seem to steal the show, I think I might use the environment rules more then some GM's and that seems to be a factor.
The pounce thing I have never been able to visualize with iterative attacks and my players seem to have the same mindset, so although the natural attacks are probably no worse of a way to go it's also a pretty specific concept so it isn't something that I see all the time over and over.
Other then that, I dunno, things just seem to work out. I'm really not sure why. I always expect to see these problems I read about (the arguments totally make sense) but when we play at home it's just not so bad.
It doesn't become apparent until 3rd attack around level 11. Before that magic users don't get quicken spells nor have the cash for rods. When you have 4/5 attacks, mobs are made for this, but it's so rare that it happens. It's more getting close to mob to charge, everyone else wails and debuffs mob, fighter can charge, whacks for damage, mob flies/teleports away and it becomes more of a ranged fight, with the fighter maybe being able to charge if within range. Fighter is the least scary threat on the field. So very predictable and so very weak against mobility.
The tank class I did for Dreamscarred's Magic of Incarnum conversion, the Daevic, was designed to use more caster like action economy, which is nice for new classes but doesn't provide a fix for older classes.
I think that this would probably be the the best backwards-compatible solution:
You can move like the wind and unleash a hurricane of deadly blows.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +10
Benefit:You gain the pounce special ability, allowing you to make a full attack at the end of a charge. In addition, you gain a +1 bonus to all attack rolls made as part of the charge.
Special: A monk may use his monk level in place of his monk BAB when qualifying for this feat.
That class looks rad, dude.
|
|
I know it's excessive, I was just shooting for a solution that could potentially see the light of day in an official product. I think making it an alternate cap to the Whirlwind tree would probably be fine though, so that it uses the same pre-reqs but a higher BAB and doesn't actually require Whirlwind Attack. I'd also have no problem with adding a "or monk level 10" line to the prereq.
I'd also considered a feat line that allowed you to treat your weapon as being larger than it actually is when you take an attack action, thus making Vital Strike more worthwhile.
Pounce doesn't seem like it's something the people at Paizo are really unwilling to give out mechanically...it's just thematically tied to animal based stuff. Catfolk get a Feat for it, too, though that one is restricted to claws only (but only has a single Feat prerequisite, though that requires specific alternate racial traits). So I don't know if a generic version per se is in the offing, but whatever versions do crop up aren't going to be that prerequisite heavy, but likely will have some sort of animal-based thematic requirement.
The tank class I did for Dreamscarred's Magic of Incarnum conversion, the Daevic, was designed to use more caster like action economy, which is nice for new classes but doesn't provide a fix for older classes.
I think that this would probably be the the best backwards-compatible solution:
You can move like the wind and unleash a hurricane of deadly blows.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +10
Benefit:You gain the pounce special ability, allowing you to make a full attack at the end of a charge. In addition, you gain a +1 bonus to all attack rolls made as part of the charge.
Special: A monk may use his monk level in place of his monk BAB when qualifying for this feat.
Yeah, that looks about right to me. I doubt we'll get something that generic, but maybe if you give it some sort of animal-based name...
Making a Style that did it on the third Feat might be ideal, actually.
The pounce thing I have never been able to visualize with iterative attacks and my players seem to have the same mindset, so although the natural attacks are probably no worse of a way to go it's also a pretty specific concept so it isn't something that I see all the time over and over.Have you ever seen a Samurai movie where the guy charges his opponent, lands on the other side of him, and the guy falls apart into more than two pieces?
That's an Iterative Attack Pounce.
I get stuck on names. I can't seem to get to that point where I'm comfortable looking at all class features and options as a toolkit to be re-skinned and re-fluffed any way you like. I think one blogger called it "associated mechanics." So I have absolutely nothing against an ability existing that lets you do that cool samurai move, but when I hear "pounce" I want it to be executed in a way that connects to the image that conjures of the big cat simultaneously striking with multiple natural attacks after leaping to close the distance. It's maybe a little OCD, and I know the game has sort of moved away from that, but not completely I don't think.
Would it be too strong to get rid of the iterative attacks, and just increase the damage dice? This is just for extra attacks granted by having a BAB of +6 or greater. So, a level 6 fighter wielding a greataxe would deal 2d12 damage, 3d12 at level 11, 4d12 at level 16. Of course, I have never tested this out as I just thought it up as I read this thread.
My reasoning? Casters gain a new level, a large amount of their damage spells increase in number of damage dice (example fireball: level 7 it does 7d6, level 8 does 8d6, etc). This wouldn't work on the natural attack builds I am sure (I don't know as I have never played a character with natural attacks), and it would lessen the absolute need for pounce. Put it behind some feats if you really want to.
Of course, this could be an absolute steaming pile of a suggestion for all I know. I don't really care much about numbers, and I haven't played beyond 9th level.
Just take Pounce away from the barbarians and everything will be better.
I'm in favor of Kyrt-ryder's version of Fatal Rush as a solution to the OP's stated goal.
It means that every other martial class who wants this ability has to go through the usual feat-prerequisite feat chain (Dex 13 > Dodge > Mobility > Spring Attack) while offering monks a unique way of bypassing it (which is a good thing, I think, given the monk's combat role and some of the commonly-argued problems with how that combat role plays out in their class abilities).
I hate the idea of removing Pounce from the barbarians. And I think this does a good job of approximating it for the rest of the martials.
|
|
Just take Pounce away from the barbarians and everything will be better.
Again, no it won't, since spellcasters and archers will be vastly superior to melee characters then. Pounce is not the most powerful thing in the game, it's not even close, removing it, and only from Barbarians at that (Druids would still have it) is ridiculous, unfair, and won't actually balance things at all.
EDIT: What Eben TheQuiet said. Though I'll note that I suggested almost exactly that solution in the second post of the thread...;)
Then let me throw my support fully behind Deadmanwalking's earlier suggestion. (Not an attempt to take credit from your brilliant ideas, DMW... just weighing in.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Oh no! A martial class can move 10ft. and still be effective! HOW DARE THEY? NERF IT INTO NOTHINGNESS! Now excuse me while my Cleric teleports as a move action and then casts 2 different spells..."
Apparently, Pounce should be exclusive to 6th level Druids and 1st level Synthesists.
¬¬'
How, exactly, is a martial character being able to move without losing 80% of its effectiveness a bad thing? How does it break anything in the game?
Here is my idea:
Allow characters to use a full round action to move up to half their speed and make a full attack (maybe expand it to full speed at BAB +11, but still keeping it a full round action). This makes martials more mobile and still keeps Pounce as an useful ability to have.
Though i'll also say that I don't love the name Fatal Rush. It suggests that either the attacker or target is imminently going to die. And while I can appreciate that that was likely the intent, I'd prefer a name that suggested what the feat actually allows.... movement (so Rush is nice) + full attacking.
"Oh no! A martial class can move 10ft. and still be effective! HOW DARE THEY? NERF IT INTO NOTHINGNESS! Now excuse me while my Cleric teleports as a move action and then casts 2 different spells..."
Apparently, Pounce should be exclusive to 6th level Druids and 1st level Synthesists.
¬¬'
How, exactly, is a martial character being able to move without losing 80% of its effectiveness a bad thing? How does it break anything in the game?
Here is my idea:
Allow characters to use a full round action to move up to half their speed and make a full attack (maybe expand it to full speed at BAB +11, but still keeping it a full round action). This makes martials more mobile and still keeps Pounce as an useful ability to have.
I would say full attack for full movement not double move. So 30 feet. AOO still would work so it would prevent going around people to happily. 5 feet move no AOO, 30 feet and still full attack. If the fighter wants to take a bunch of hits he can keep moving through and attack. Tactically it's much more fun and opens up options to the static fighter.
The main problem with being able to move and attack in the same round is inherent in the mechanics of the combat round itself.
There is no parity between combatants when the attacker can do a full move and full attack against an opponent that can't do anything until it's turn in the initiative round.
If everyone acted at the same time it would work...but its exceedingly clunky in a its-your-turn-to-act system like Pathfinder. In this system, initiative is king.
I'd say it's workable if the turn system could be tweaked so that those who don't go first in the initiative round have the ability to counter attack when the moving-and-attacking martial closes much like an automatically readied action/attack of opportunity. So that way they have the ability to react to an attacker (outside of normal attacks of opportunity) if they have iterative attacks available.
Not to mention the fact that we already have a number of examples of martial combatants who are also on that paradigm... pouncing barbarians, wild shaping druids, and any number of bestiary entries.
So at best this is evening up the odds in favor of a number of PC classes that are currently at a disadvantage in this regard.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Oh no! A martial class can move 10ft. and still be effective! HOW DARE THEY? NERF IT INTO NOTHINGNESS! Now excuse me while my Cleric teleports as a move action and then casts 2 different spells..."
Apparently, Pounce should be exclusive to 6th level Druids and 1st level Synthesists.
Beastmorph Alchemists get pounce as well at level 10. I would also call the Dimensional Dervish feat chain a varient of pounce since you can get full attacks out of it.
Plus, archers are superior to pouncers in general since they basically get to make a full attack and ignore DR at the same time....
Be careful about calling for one or two things to get nerfed when there are 10 other options that do the same thing. All you'll do is make the other options more popular.
There are plenty of examples of pouncing being available. That's not really what I'm referring to:
I'm talking about being able to move and full attack at all times, not just at the end of a charge.
There are plenty of examples of pouncing being available. That's not really what I'm referring to:
I'm talking about being able to move and full attack at all times, not just at the end of a charge.
If that's the concern, you could always make the feat mechanically identical to Pounce, and simply give it different flavor. Easy peasy.
The problem comes in when you can't perform a charge but have the ability to move normally. It is inconsistent to say that you can full attack while moving @double your movement (charge) but not when you can move normally on the same terrain.
The problem comes in when you can't perform a charge but have the ability to move normally. It is inconsistent to say that you can full attack while moving @double your movement (charge) but not when you can move normally on the same terrain.
Eh. I'm guessing there are any number of consistency issues between different options available to different classes. The OP seems more concerned with balance while looking for a solution for non-barbarian martials to have options to keep them on par with their barbarian counterparts in terms of mobile melee offense output.
From a parity standpoint—and assuming the above feat—we're looking at:
Barbs can get Pounce at 10 with a 3 rage power investment
Druids can get Pounce at 6 using Wildshape
Any full-bab class can get Pounce at 10 with a 4 feat investment
Flurry-able Monks can get Pounce at 11 with a 2 feat investment (1 being a bonus feat)
.. and some other options as mentioned by other posters.
It feels like a good place to start to me.
I honestly don't think Pounce should take 4 feat prerequisites. Especially if 3~4 of those are boring and/or ineffective. There is nothing more boring than leveling up and being forced to pay a feat tax instead of taking something cool or useful. Even more so if it's just for the "privilege" of walking 10ft.
There are 4 main reasons I like the "move half your speed and full attack as a full round action" mechanic.
1 - It makes your movement speed actually have an impact on how far you can move before you full attack (so Monks have an advantage here!)
2 - Everyone can benefit from it without having to "pay" for it. There is no reason to tax Fighters, Paladins, Rogues, Rangers, Cavaliers for something casters get for free. There's certainly no reason to tax 4 freaking feats. Fighters are not the only class with mobility issues, you know.
3 - it could be upgraded based on BAB. Like getting Pounce for free when they hit BAB +11 (Or Monk level 11).
4 - It's simple and easy to remember.
I'll also admit that I like how this feat tax delays an Archer's access to moving and full attacking, because they've got a ton of other important feats to take.)
In the end, it doesn't make any real difference. Archers will get their full attack anyway... I suppose they could use that to move away from adjacent enemies and full attack them, but archers can already do the same with a 5ft-step, and this movement still provokes AoO, so no biggie.
If Pounce were a feat, it shouldn't have more than a single feat as a prerequisite... Give it Dex 13 and... I dunno... Step Up. the end.