So we are nearing the end of Stolen Land and I've started reading up on Rivers Run Red and the kingdom building rules (we'll be using Ultimate Campaign). Came upon a quick question; are the PC's supposed to receive some number of Build Points to start out with when they begin establishing their kingdom (as a donation from Restov perhaps)? I really seem to remember seeing a reference to this in one of the Kingmaker books, but for the life of me I can't find it now. Ultimate Campaign suggests that new kingdoms start out with 50 BP, is that a good number?
50 BP is stated on page 55 of RRR.
If you want your players and their kingdom to be more politically involved with Brevoy you can use some of the suggestions you can find
here
Thanks, I must be blind but I knew it was in there somewhere! Some cool ideas in that thread too; thanks for that.
Bear in mind that 50BP is the equivalent of a lot of cash, so you have to flavour it right. My party defeated the Stag Lord and then when the Swordlords' agent came to give them their reward, he arrived at the head of a caravan of settlers carrying tools and building materials. That was their 50BP, and it worked to put them in the right frame of mind; any resource that might convert into BP gets considered for the kingdom first, and they're personally quite lightly equipped.
Based on the opening text in RRR, it suggests a year's worth of kingdom building.
By my initial reading of the Kingdom stuff in RRR and in Ultimate Campaign, that amounts to 12 kingdom turns and a maximum Kingdom Size of 14 by the end of the year (size 1-10 max new hexes =1).
Does that sound right? Do most game starts see a settlement reaching that size during that initial period? Have I correctly interprettyed Kingdom Size to mean the number of hexes in the kingdom?
Am I also correct in understanding that each Hex is represented in the kingdom by the 9x4 grid included in the KMPG?
Yes, Kingdom Size = number of hexes.
A settlement is located in a hex, but does not fill all the area (since each hex is roughly 12 miles across). You can have any number of districts (city grid) in a settlement and it will still only occupy 1 hex.
So the only benefit to claiming new hexes would be controlling the natural resources in that hex?
I havent gone through the entire list of buildings to see if certain ones require certain terrain types, but are there a lot more natural resources than the Gold mine in the first module avaialble to be claimed? If the party chooses the Stag Lord's fort as their base, that gold mine is a goodly distance away. Would they be better served making a new settlement closer to the mine than trying to expand their existing settlement all the way to the mine?
On to unlimited districts per Hex
Quote: Most settlements only have 1 district. If your District Grid is full and you want to add another district (for example, if you run out of available lots in that settlement and want to construct additional buildings), you can create an additional district for that settlement by paying the preparation cost for the settlement's terrain as listed on Table Terrain and Terrain Improvements. I cant find anywhere where it definitively states that you can/cant have multiple districts in a hex, but at the very least the rule quoted above would mean that for each district you'd have to pay the "terrain prep cost" for each district, but in theory you could have infinite districts in a given "Plain" hex and at the cost of 2BP they would be available immediately.
Obviously, the buildings per turn maximum would keep you from abusing the new district thing, but otherwise have I got the right of it?
Yeah that's correct Curghann. Multiple districts represent bigger cities.
Keeping a large city in a tiny kingdom is unwise. BUT if your players really want to do that, they will eventually see why it is unwise.
My group was hell bent on keeping their kingdom small so every check was an auto success. They have been advised against this, but they decided to stay the course. As a result, their kingdom is less than 90 hexes in book 6 and they have very small territories connecting large areas. (An area of about 20 hexes is connected to the main kingdom by two hexes.) This makes the kingdom extremely vulnerable to attacks and I recently took the kid gloves off.
BoH, as I'm still in the planning phases of my KM game maybe I'm missing some of the reasons why a small number of hexes is a bad thing.
I want to make sure I've got a strong handle on the kingdom thing before we ever get there so would you mind giving me some ideas on the repercussions?
Are they things you've put in, or does the AP orKindgom Rules in general handle that as a risk?
Thanks for indulging my ignorance on the Kingdom building aspect.
No worries.
It has to do with building armies and being able to properly defend your holdings. If you only have one city and your enemies attack you, you have very few options. Diversifying is the key to any investment. Take a stock for example. If you find a very strong, very profitable stock, as tempting as it would be to invest all of your assets in that stock it's unwise because that stock may crash.
Many later rules are dependent on kingdom size. I may be looking at this from a viewpoint that is too macro because I am so far into the AP. So forgive me if this doesn't make sense.
Curghann, also consider that the bigger the kingdom grows, the more 'things'
the players can do each month. i.e. claiming new hexes & building new buildings.
BoH is correct, in that the more you get into the AP the larger your kingdom
is assumed to be. I believe (haven't quite got there yet) for example that the
size &/or number of armies is limited by how big your kingdom is...
Thanks for the info guys. Guess I'll just need to continue reading through the AP, but for now at least I feel more comfortable with the beginning stages of the kingdom building for when my game eventually gets there.
For those who've run RRR, have most fledgling kingdoms done a lot of expanding during that initial year, or is it pretty much must just the single hex with a single district built up as a capital?
I could certainly see wanting to expand at least to include the gold mine, but are there other natural resources worth expanding to early on?
Edit - Speaking of that gold mine, I dont see anything about a "mine" building or what adding that hex does for your kingdom. In Stolen Lands it mentions that the procedure is detailed in RRR, but in RRR I dont see a "mine". Similarly, the Sootscale warren is listed as a "resource" in Stolen Lands, but nothing about what kind of resource or what steps are necessary to incorporate it into the kingdom.
In RRR, location B lists a bonus to Stability if you successfully complete the nixie's quest. I expected to see something similar listed for all of the locations with the "resource". Am I missing something?
I suggest you use the set of rules from Ultimate Campaign (on sale at Paizo Store or available here). They are revised and expanded rules released after those written in RRR. Mines (and other hex improvements) are included, along with fixes for some major problems in the original rules.
Concerning the Sootscale lair, it is a silver mine that could be used as such... if the kobolds are no longer a problem.
I have been reading through the expanded rules here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/kingdomsAndWar/kingdomB uilding.html
I just wasnt sure if there was something I had been missing in the Stolen Land or RRR books.
Is there no distinction between the benefit of a silver mine or a gold mine? From the online resource, Mine is listed as such:
Quote:
Mine
A Mine extracts metal, coal, salt, or other useful materials from the earth.
Terrain: Cavern, desert, hill, or mountain.
Effect: Economy +1, earn +1 BP per turn when collecting taxes during the Income phase.
Cost: 6 BP.
It just seems odd for there to be no inherent benefit to building on the actual mine as opposed to any "Cavern, desert, hill, or mountain".
Something like reducing the BP cost, or increasing The Economy boost.
Had to dig a little deeper, but found this related gem I had been missing:
Quote:
Resource: A Resource is a ready supply of some kind of valuable commodity that offers a great economic boon to your kingdom, such as exotic lumber, precious metal, gems, rare herbs, incense, silk, ivory, furs, salt, dyes, and the like. If you claim a hex with a Resource, Economy increases by 1. If you construct a Mine, Quarry, or Sawmill in a hex with a Resource, all of its benefits increase by 1. If you construct a Farm or Fishery in a hex with a Resource, those improvements decrease Consumption by an additional 1 BP.
Curghann wrote: Had to dig a little deeper, but found this related gem I had been missing:
Quote:
Resource: A Resource is a ready supply of some kind of valuable commodity that offers a great economic boon to your kingdom, such as exotic lumber, precious metal, gems, rare herbs, incense, silk, ivory, furs, salt, dyes, and the like. If you claim a hex with a Resource, Economy increases by 1. If you construct a Mine, Quarry, or Sawmill in a hex with a Resource, all of its benefits increase by 1. If you construct a Farm or Fishery in a hex with a Resource, those improvements decrease Consumption by an additional 1 BP.
That little gem, and all the BP generating terrain improvements in UC made me do some house-ruling.
Were you finding them too easy to take advantage of, or did it inspire you create some additional ones of your own that worked out well?
Curghann wrote: Were you finding them too easy to take advantage of, or did it inspire you create some additional ones of your own that worked out well? A little of Column A, a little of Column B. I basically followed some advice from the board and created several more mines and quarry resources for them to find and made them only able to create mines/quarries on those hexes, but for big bonuses. It's worked well. I ended up with an idea for lumberyards to keep them from clear cutting forests with sawmills and we'll see how that works. Campaign in progress, will report later. ;)
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