Versatile Performance and "X Ranks" Requirements

[Oladon]

Should ranks in a Perform skill you've selected from Versatile Performance count as ranks in the associated skills for purposes of feats, prestige classes, and other abilities that require a certain number of ranks in a given skill?

I can't seem to find any "strict RAW" that would indicate they do, but at the same time it seems pretty reasonable/appropriate for them to do so.

Does anyone have any evidence either way?

Edit: I've just been pointed to this, which seems to indicate that they should indeed count.

Example, in case the question is unclear:

Bob the Bard has chosen Perform (Dance) as his first Versatile Performance skill, and has five ranks in it. (Perform [Dance] has Acrobatics and Fly as associated skills.) Can he take Disorienting Maneuver, which requires 5 ranks in Acrobatics?

[Sesharan]

Nope. Versatile Performance is quite explicit. You get to use your bonus on the perform check in place of the bonus for the associated skill. No more, no less.

[Oladon]

From James Jacobs (no, not an official rules source, but generally has a pretty good idea of how things are meant to work):

James Jacobs wrote:

The whole POINT of Versatile Performance is to free up the bard's skill ranks to let him get more bang for his buck.

[Nefreet]

I was wondering the same a while back for a PFS concept. I was considering doing two levels of Bard for Versatile Performance (wind) to get Diplomacy and Handle Animal, and either Druid or Ranger to get an Animal Companion.

The problem is, in PFS, you can only train your Animal Companion a number of tricks per session based on the # of ranks you have in Handle Animal.

If I went with Versatile Performance, that would be zero.

And the +4 to Handle Animal from my Link wouldn't help, either.

With Versatile Performance, you just count the bonus, not the # of ranks.

[Oladon]

Indeed, that's one of the cases I've found where this becomes an issue. If the intent really is to free up skill ranks, then it doesn't make any sense that ranks in a Versatile Performance skill wouldn't count.

Current PFS Plan:

Currently, the plan for PFS is to just take a "full disclosure" approach: at every table, explain to the DM the situation and what the intent seems to be. If they're okay with it, they're okay with it. If they aren't, act as if the animal doesn't have the tricks in question for that scenario.

[Nefreet]

Except, how do you know the intent is to count your Perform ranks as Handle Animal ranks?

That comment from JJ says nothing of the sort.

[Oladon]

It's the link before that, in the original post. I /don't/ know for sure, but it seems pretty reasonable (and so far the other DMs I've spoken with have agreed).

[Nefreet]

Ah. Missed that.

[Cheapy]

Yea, this comes up really often.

[Majuba]

I don't see that Versatile Performance ranks should count for actual prerequisites. Certainly no direct rules basis, but also fluff-wise I don't see it. Often prerequisites indicate a learning of technique, rather than being able to enact the same effect through another method.

The PFS Handle Animal rule is a shortcut, not a real rule. It really doesn't have any direct implications, and that I'd see as an easy exception to the above.

I agree with James about how to add the modifiers and such (except Skill Focus stacking - that's nuts), I like Bards close to as much as he does. However he doesn't say they count for actual pre-reqs, and I don't think they should.

This is a pretty rare case by the way - out of the Core Rulebook and APG, only one feat (Spider Step) has a prerequisite skill that is replaced by Versatile performance.

Edit: Cheapy, only *just* got the sarcasm - nice!

[Cheapy]

Actually, it wasn't quite sarcasm. I read the question a bit hastily, and thought it was a separate one that is asked quite often. There are a suite of questions surrounding Versatile Performance that are often asked, and I thought it was one of those. But it wasn't.

This question is one that is slightly different, but I can still recall a few instances where this was asked, mostly 2 years ago or so in the ask James Jacobs thread.

Speaking from RAW, I don't see anything to imply that it should count as ranks. Since it actually mentions ranks in the text, and makes it clear you're using your bonus from X as a bonus to Y, I feel the intent is that you do not qualify. You can fake it, but you don't know it.

There's this bit by Sean that doesn't take on this subject explicitly.

SKR wrote:

[as an example of what would be a rules change if made into the rules] bards with versatile performance can swap out skill ranks in skills made obsolete by versatile performance

I'm not sure which argument that supports, but found it interesting. I think the quote implies more in favor of "they count as the ranks", but at the same time we don't actually know what other rule changes that would require to add to the CRB, so that's a flimsy bit of support at best.