Can non-evil undead exist?

[Splendor]

I would think non-evil intelligent undead would either be 1) really good individuals where became undead against their will and try to fight their new heritage, or 2) evil creatures who actually want to be redeemed.

For redeemed ones you could look at Wrath of the Righteous Players Guide page 11.
http://paizo.com/products/btpy919c?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-Wrath-of-the-R ighteous-Players-Guide

If the character is raising undead you need to ask how many evil acts make you evil? If one evil act makes you evil, does one good act make you good? What about neutral? Shouldn't there be a slow alignment shift? Good to neutral to evil?

What if the character is GOOD in every other way, he just does not believe that creating undead, ones that don't feed on people (Ghouls, Vampires), isn't evil? He could easily be wrong. But what if for every time he casts create undead he save a country? Does he still turn evil?

There were also rules about completing penances to improve your alignment. Maybe his evil spellcasting shifts him to neutral but he could keep doing good deeds to keep himself from becoming evil.

Is making a couple skeletons who row your longboat really evil? Is it evil to make a skeletal wolf to run down a corridor and set of traps?

[Mark Hoover]

@ Claxon: shoot, well, I guess I'm in the "overdoing it" section too. In my homebrew of Karnoss in one far corner of the world I have something called the Unyielding Legion. Essentially it is a whole mercenary troop of corporeal undead along the trope from LOTR. They're LN in alignment though.

The legion fought against an evil necromancer/goddess (ended a 3.5 game w/a PC worshipping the Magic/Undead goddess from D&D) whose vessel on earth was about to decimate the land. These guys were bad but turned morally at the last second and made a stand that turned the tide. They should've died heroes but they live on as the Unyielding.

So with their unlife they have nothing left but to march. They work for whoever can pay them and being LN they always honor their debts and dealings. Many fools over the past century have tried cheating them but the legion's ranks swells with dealbreakers they defeat.

So far these guys remain a myth of the land; my PCs haven't met them yet but if the campaign continues into mid or high levels I may bring in the legion.

I get your point though; such things should be rare and unique. If I have the legion for example, that's only because ALL other undead stalk the living with malice and evil in their lifeless thoughts. If there were a truly good undead, it would be a special snowflake, perhaps seeking some redemption before moving on into the Boneyard.

[Claxon]

Mark Hoover wrote:

@ Claxon: shoot, well, I guess I'm in the "overdoing it" section too. In my homebrew of Karnoss in one far corner of the world I have something called the Unyielding Legion. Essentially it is a whole mercenary troop of corporeal undead along the trope from LOTR. They're LN in alignment though.

The legion fought against an evil necromancer/goddess (ended a 3.5 game w/a PC worshipping the Magic/Undead goddess from D&D) whose vessel on earth was about to decimate the land. These guys were bad but turned morally at the last second and made a stand that turned the tide. They should've died heroes but they live on as the Unyielding.

So with their unlife they have nothing left but to march. They work for whoever can pay them and being LN they always honor their debts and dealings. Many fools over the past century have tried cheating them but the legion's ranks swells with dealbreakers they defeat.

So far these guys remain a myth of the land; my PCs haven't met them yet but if the campaign continues into mid or high levels I may bring in the legion.

I get your point though; such things should be rare and unique. If I have the legion for example, that's only because ALL other undead stalk the living with malice and evil in their lifeless thoughts. If there were a truly good undead, it would be a special snowflake, perhaps seeking some redemption before moving on into the Boneyard.

Keep in mind it's just my personal preference, I'm basically in the same lot that James Jacobs is. Also, I've read a lot of what you've written on this board Mark, and your skills are awesome. Generally when you post I think it's gold. You give wonderful details and descriptions, and ideas. Now, on the surface I don't care for a legion of non-evil undead, but if I were to play in your campaign I would be interested to see how it was integrated in. Further, as long as your legion was the only non-evil group I might be able to accept it, but it would depend. When we talk about a big group like that they just lose individuality to me and the unique nature of being non-evil undead is trivialized by the fact that there are 1000 of them.

[Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll]

Remember, not evil make Undead on a ship.

Ship crew too busy to Macarena.

[lemeres]

Claxon wrote:

I was in agreement with your Lemeres, until you said caravan.

I don't mind the idea of a ghost grandmother to continue "baking cookies" if it serves to illustrate somethign well and poignantly. However, when you make a whole troop of them, it bother me. I can't explain why exactly, partially it ruins the unique nature of the individual.

For me, literally encountering more than one in a characters life would ruin it for me.

Well, as I said, it is not that those undead came into existence at the same time. The would be hundreds, or even thousands, of years age difference between them.

But it is your right to not like the flavor of it. I'll admit, even with that time frame, I doubt undead could really go around finding other rare cases like that without running into danger (ie-adventurers)

[Weirdo]

Mikaze wrote:

We've also got mentions of non-evil vampires here and there, mostly in Blood of the Night IIRC.

Here we go:

BotN page 5:

For some lonely vampires, the promise of companionship drives them to change their isolationist nature, and more often than repentance it is loneliness that pushes the rare vampire from wanton evil to hopeful neutrality.

BotN page 12:

The stolen moments become the vetala’s philosophy, leading it to true enlightenment or even freedom from an evil or undead existence.

BotN page 14:

Neutral vampires are rare, but not unheard of. Most commonly they are freed spawn, creatures now balking in horror at acts they perpetrated while dominated by their masters, with living memories fresh in their minds. Some vampires shift alignment to neutral over many hundreds of years as they tire of hunting and being hunted, moderating their evil by curtailing their behavior rather than making a philosophical choice.

A good vampire is so rare as to be almost nonexistent. Its very nature draws it to feast on living intelligent creatures. The impossibly rare good vampire is trusted by no one and persecuted by all—mortal and vampire alike. Other vampires despise it out of jealousy or fear. No mortal will ever be convinced of its goodness, always sleeping behind locked chamber doors and with holy symbols in hand. Both within an adventuring party and out in the world, playing a good vampire character is fraught with trials.

Vampires of all types may be lawful, neutral, or chaotic. As they are essentially immortal and can reinvent their identities over the centuries, a vampire is rarely bound to one alignment all its life.

[Fugitmori]

Personally, I would argue that non-evil undead may have made themselves to combat or off-set evil undead. Evil Vs. Good is all about intent, I think?

[The black raven]

Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll wrote:

Remember, not evil make Undead on a ship.

Ship crew too busy to Macarena.

These undead are completely unable to hurt other creatures AND are not forever around with only one casting of the spell.

It is completely different from creating evil creatures that last basically forever and can eventually become free and start attacking and killing innocent people left and right.

Concerning groups of non-evil undead, most intelligent undead are described as slowly becoming evil as time passes by and they lose their mortal attachments. In such a setting, a single non-evil undead is a rarity, and several banding together across the centuries is a near impossibility. Time is NOT on the side of Good as far as the vast majority of intelligent undead are concerned. Eox stands as a good example of this.

[Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll]

Also not evil make undead do other dances.

Like Shall We Dance but zombies not Yul Brynner.

[The black raven]

Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll wrote:

Also not evil make undead do other dances.

Like Shall We Dance but zombies not Yul Brynner.

Good catch. It seems that the deciding factor is that those undead are NOT permanent, as opposed to those created through Animate Dead.

[Kobold Catgirl]

jlighter wrote:

Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll wrote:

Pathfinder "cleaned up" for kids.

Skeletons and zombies without orders actually do Macarena. Including trying singing. Possibly forever.

That why evil.

Ah. That makes perfect sense. I redact all my arguments that mindless undead should be neutral due to lack of choice. Such a travesty is clearly the work of the basest and vilest of evils.

WHAT THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE I AM ABOUT TO POST AN OUTRAGED RESPONSE TO

Quote:

/faux-serious

Ohhhh. Okay, guys, he wasn't being serious.