I use something like this, corresponding to typical NPC stats in eg the GameMastery Guide:
1 - Novice
2 - Experienced
3/4 - Veteran
5/6 - Elite
7-9 - local Leaders, minor Heroes
10-12 - major Leaders and Heroes
13+ - BBEGs, legendary characters, etc
1st level is 'mook level'; the typical 'named' NPC is 2nd level. Typical NPCs are mostly NPC classes, and between 1st and 4th level.
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Varies a lot by campaign setting. Here's the ranges I use for my home campaign world:
Unless they push themselves above and beyond, levels 1-6 is what the average person goes through in their life. (In parentheses the age ranges per the CRB, using human lifespan as an example)
1 novice (teenager)
2 apprentice (early 20s)
3 journeyman (late 20s)
4 journeyman (middle age 35)
5 master (old 53)
6 master (venerable 70)
above the normal people:
7-9 veteran, local hero
10-12 local leader, minor noble
13-15 general, major noble (duke)
16-18 hero of world renown, king
19-20 the emperor
21+ the true powers that be, the archmages, dragons
you may question why should a king be level 18, he could just be some fat bloke who inherited his rule. Well yeah, in boring reality, but this is epic fantasy. If the king is only level 2, then he must be a puppet and the true power behind the throne is the level 18. The pathfinder world is one in which individuals can wield immense power such that they could single handedly massacre entire armies or magically brainwash a nation into worshipping them. If you can't do that, someone who can is going take your kingdom from you.
So whatever level represents the height of human achievements in your campaign world, the rulers should be close to that. In Golarion I'd say its about level 13-15, in my setting its level 20, in another campaign it might be level 10. Whatever level it is, that is when pcs retire (possibly as kings themselves).
Varies a lot by campaign setting. Here's the ranges I use for my home campaign world: (Unless they push themselves above and beyond, levels 1-6 is what the average person goes through in their life.)
1 novice
2 apprentice
3 journeyman
4 journeyman
5 master
6 masterabove the normal people:
7-9 veteran, local hero
10-12 local leader, minor noble
13-15 general, major noble (duke)
16-18 hero of world renown, king
19-20 the emperor
21+ the true powers that be, the archmages, dragons
Looking at what high-level characters (especially casters) can actually do to a game world, I peg it something more like this:
1 Novice/apprentice2-3 Journeyman/veteran
4-5 Local hero or noble
6-10 World-class champion or king
11-15 Hero out of legend
16+ Demigod
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I'm still a little confused. What's a "journeyman"?
I know the textbook definition: "a person who has completed an apprenticeship and is fully educated in a trade or craft, but not yet a master." That doesn't actually mean much, though, since I don't know how many skill ranks it takes to be "fully educated" (by rights, that should be at least 20 levels, since until that point you can always learn more at next level), or at what level you are considered a "master."
So at this point we are almost but not quite where we could have a "could Spider-man beat Batman in a fight?" conversation.
I go by the 5th level is where maximum human performance lies school of thought. Basically, any task we consider plausible in the real world -- winning an Olympic medal, winning a Nobel prize, swimming the English Channel -- should be doable by a suitably optimized 5th level character. Anyone who likes is welcome to stat out Ashton Eaton and confirm.
By extension, "realistic" fictional heroes like d'Artagnan and possibly Aragorn are 5th level or less. Unrealistic heroes out of wuxia films can stand next to Gandalf and Batman at whatever levels you choose and have as high ranks as you like.
The conclusion is that depending upon the realism of your world, you can draw the numbers anywhere. In a realistic world, an appropriately specialized first-level character is a journeyman and a second or third would be a master; the best in the world is by definition a 5th level character. If you're doing a Tarantino filmfest, Hattori Hanzo is however high he needs to be to make the Katana of MacGuffin.....
The conclusion is that depending upon the realism of your world, you can draw the numbers anywhere. In a realistic world, an appropriately specialized first-level character is a journeyman and a second or third would be a master; the best in the world is by definition a 5th level character.
The 3 skill ranks between 2nd & 5th level doesn't seem like much. I suppose there's the stat bump and maybe a skill focus feat(!).
I tend to use 1st level NPC-class as apprentice/novice, a 1st level PC class character is either a journeyman or a highly talented novice. Typical journeyman NPCs, which is pretty much the average NPC, are 2nd level NPC class.
The pathfinder world is one in which individuals can wield immense power such that they could single handedly massacre entire armies or magically brainwash a nation into worshipping them. If you can't do that, someone who can is going take your kingdom from you.
Meh, you just need a few noble heroes, like your typical Good adventuring party, to put a stop to such shenanigans. There's no reason you can't have a perfectly reasonable, or even a great, king between levels 5-10.
You're also welcome to have a level 18 king. But personally, I can't see that it would be worth the trouble at level 18 for a caster to run a kingdom (after all, you're basically a demigod .... why bother with a kindom?), and a martial would surely get bored with all the paperwork. Maybe a level 18 rogue would think it's good to be king?
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NPC Classes:
Level 1: Journeyman (or apprentice for PC class)
Level 2-3: Expert / Local Significance
Level 4-7: Master / Regional Significance
Level 8+: Grand Master / National Significance
**However most level 8+ NPCs have PC classes
PC Classes:
Level 1-2: Expert / Local Significance
Level 3-5: Elite / Regional Significance
Level 6-9: Master / National Significance
Level 10-14: Grand Master / International Significance
Level 15+: Legendary / Historical or Interplanar Significance
**I felt I needed to break up the 11-20 tier
Local Significance - Important within a small settlement or a small group within a larger settlement. The sheriff in a small town, head of a troupe of performers, senior priest/ess of a minor church in a city, minor officers in a large military.
Regional Significance - Important within a larger area or major settlement. Captain of the watch or senior priest in a city, senior member of a druidic circle, moderate officers in a large military, popular bards, local heroes.
National Significance - Important within a small kingdom or a province of a large empire. Kings, dukes, provincial governors, merchant princes, national champions, royal wizards or chaplains, heads of large magical or bardic colleges, high military officers.
International Significance - Important within several kingdoms or an empire. Emperors or their champions, generals of vast armies, high priests of world religions, founders of arcane or military orders.
Historical or Interplanar Significance - Saints, demigods, founders of dynasties, characters who redraw maps (and perhaps reshape continents.)
I think holders of major hereditary positions should often but not always be higher level. Running a country is difficult, especially in a dangerous fantasy world, and the person at the helm is likely to face enough challenges to gain a good chunk of experience whether through directly confronting enemies of the realm or just dealing with court intrigue (unless they delegate, in which case you get a lot of high-level advisers).
There does need to be a power protecting the throne, but that isn't always the one making the decisions. I can easily see a loyal order of knights or devoted uncle or spouse protecting the throne (and its low-level occupant) from usurpers without actually desiring influence over their rule. I could also see a royal bloodline protected by a powerful outsider/dragon/artifact/curse bound or created by the bloodline's powerful founder.
Also, since not every high-level character is interested in taking over a kingdom, if characters in the highest tier of power are rare, it might be unusual for them to decide to take a kingdom by force. Common enough to provide a plot hook, but not enough to define the world.
The 3 skill ranks between 2nd & 5th level doesn't seem like much. I suppose there's the stat bump and maybe a skill focus feat(!).
5 ranks qualifies you for the Master Craftsman feat, meaning you can craft magic items without caster levels. I give out Master Craftsman for free if you qualify, so 5th level means you can select the Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Arms and Armour feat and start making magic through skill of craftsmanship alone.
5 ranks qualifies you for the Master Craftsman feat, meaning you can craft magic items without caster levels. I give out Master Craftsman for free if you qualify, so 5th level means you can select the Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Arms and Armour feat and start making magic through skill of craftsmanship alone.
Of course, in a realistic campaign, "crafting magic items" isn't something that people do. Kind of by definition. Tell me again about Louis XIII and his magic Musket of Distance?
First. If you have PC class levels, you are special.
First. If you have PC class levels, you are special.What about the NPC classes?
I think of that depending more on one's skill bonus rather than levels, per se, and I usually don't think about it too much. That said, I would probably guesstimate that every 5 points of skill bonus would make a good 'rank'.
I never stat up non-combatant NPCs, though. Any given craftsman is precisely as skilled at his craft as I need him to be for the needs of the story.
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5 ranks qualifies you for the Master Craftsman feat, meaning you can craft magic items without caster levels. I give out Master Craftsman for free if you qualify, so 5th level means you can select the Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Arms and Armour feat and start making magic through skill of craftsmanship alone.
Of course, in a realistic campaign, "crafting magic items" isn't something that people do. Kind of by definition. Tell me again about Louis XIII and his magic Musket of Distance?
No, but in a really realistic campaign, "casting spells" isn't something people do. In a world where level 1 wizards are not hugely less common than level 1 fighters (magic isn't only the domain of legend), a craftsman who can create magic items through skill alone is probably at the same level of importance/rarity as an Olympic champion in our world.
Given that 5 is at the top of "realistic" anyway I don't mind starting to transition into "magical/supernatural skill" at that point. And without my house-rule you need to wait until level 7 (just beyond real-world limits) to actually craft magic items. (Master Craftsman just lets you take the feat that lets you craft magic items.)
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I'm still a little confused. What's a "journeyman"?
We're defining normal people's class level by their professional skills. Non-rules wise, a journeyman is at the level of being able to do their job well, but not exceptional. PF rules wise once you can perform your craft/profession by taking 10, you are a journeyman. You can do the expected job reliably. Once you can make masterwork items, you've graduated to being a master.
Meh, you just need a few noble heroes, like your typical Good adventuring party, to put a stop to such shenanigans. There's no reason you can't have a perfectly reasonable, or even a great, king between levels 5-10.
Which leads me into: There are two different philosophies of world building.
1- you try to make things realistic. Yes there is magic and wizards, but physics and politics still work just like they do in our reality. In this world the king is a low level aristocrat. In this world you could have a story revolving around the mystery of a young man falling off a one story building and breaking his neck. The rules are assumed to be trying to emulate reality and as the gm, you will find yourself making house rules/breaking rules to make this work how it should irl.
2- you base the realism of the world off the rules of the game system. In this world, you know the young man must have been murdered because it is impossible to break your neck from a 10 foot fall. In this world the leaders are all high level people. The rules are assumed to be the way things are and as the gm, you mostly run the rules as written.
I'm still a little confused. What's a "journeyman"?We're defining normal people's class level by their professional skills. Non-rules wise, a journeyman is at the level of being able to do their job well, but not exceptional. PF rules wise once you can perform your craft/profession by taking 10, you are a journeyman.
So,... since the DC for crafting a "typical item" is 10, that would be.... level 0?
Once you can make masterwork items, you've graduated to being a master.
Masterwork items are DC 20. So that would be.... level 0? Just try 20 times to make something and wait until I roll a 20.
Alternatively, I could take ten on this with a well-designed first level character. +2 for an appropriate attribute, +1 for having a single rank in the appropriate skill, +3 for it being a class skill, +3 for the Skill Focus feat that any professional would be expected to have, and +2 for using tools better than my fingernails and teeth. (Add another +2 if I'm a gnome or +2 if I have an apprentice to act as prep cook).
The point, of course, that the rules support very low level characters being very good at mundane tasks.
The distribution of power and skill in your world should match the ecology.
A good setting is made by a sensible ecosystem. If flame drakes are a common threat, why does the village still have thatch roofs and the local castle still have vertical stone walls?
For that matter, in a setting where trolls, ogres, magical beasts, and the like are common enough to be frequent random encounters, how do typical medieval settlements survive at all? Is it the 'our soldiers are Sparta's walls' approach, where a highly trained, round the clock military force defends everything? Or is it that the town wizard decided that he had better things to do than juice up a murder-hobo's sword, and magically enchanted town walls and set up evocation turrets for invaders?
My point here is that if you want a game world where wild dangers far exceed the possibilities of earth, consider what implications that has on settlement expansion, communication, transportation, architecture, engineering, population size, life expectancy, the spread of ideas, and yes, the skill level distribution it takes just to make it in your environment.
Rather than just whine about the complexity of the issue, i'm going to offer some tools and hope that they help. Feel free to use: (condense the links the forum likes to space them for some reason)
http://www.freewebs.com/palatium/apps/forums/topics/show/8364801-magical-en gineering
http://www.freewebs.com/palatium/apps/forums/topics/show/9012115-npc-genera tion-tables-and-world-level-distribution
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You can be really good at a skill at level 1, but only if you are super specialized at the task or have exceptionally high abilities. A young person who is really good at doing one thing is called... a virtuoso! and they exist in our world too. Player characters are just these kind of virtuoso people. If a hero wants to become a blacksmith, he should be the best darn blacksmith around, far surpassing his masters at a young age. NPCs, however, are the baseline around wich the world is designed, and are not heroes. They are ordinary people with low ability scores. Lets take average Joe, he doesn't get to choose the aptitudes he was born with and his sociological situation leaves him stuck as the blacksmith's apprentice. Joe isn't a PC, he didn't chose to be born with an 8int and a 9wis, but that's the lot he got in life. Joe struggles with the craft he was given, but diligently puts a skill point into it each level and, by level 3, can make a dc15 by taking 10.
An item with a DC10 is something easy, like a frying pan. This is the exact kind of thing you would give to your apprentice to make. The DC to make a standard item, like a martial weapon, is a 15. For an average guy (remember, average guy Joe is not a super hero PC) to make a normal DC15 item by taking 10, that would be level 2 (2ranks +3 class skill +0 intelligence modifier). I set journeyman to level 3 because, by level 3 even our slow apprentice Joe with his 8 intelligence can make the 15 at that point by taking 10.
Normal npcs get an ability spread of 13 12 11 10 9 8. Lets say Joe has a friend Bill who is also an apprentice blacksmith. Bill has a 13 intelligence. He can make a DC15 at 1st level. Does his master look at the first thing Bill makes and say done, you've graduated, you're now a journeyman? No, that's usually not how those things play out. Ok great, he's more talented than Joe, but there's still things the master can teach him. Bill helps out a lot around the smithy, making some more complex items and helps his buddy Joe keep up with the work that he isn't quite as talented with doing. The master doesn't want to let him go early, and the boy is indentured to the master for his full two year apprenticeship anyway. So both boys end up graduating at the same time, even though one is better than the other. (You were probably smarter than a lot of your classmates in high school, you still had to take all the same classes and wait to graduate with everyone else. Some kids are exceptionally smart and get bumped up a year or graduate early. Again, these kids are exceptions to the norm. We're trying to set a norm, not find all the exceptions).
While you can keep trying until you roll a 20 and make a masterwork item, you have ruined a large pile of materials trying, and can not claim to be able to do so reliably. You are clearly not a master at your craft in this case.
This, of course, is all with humans in mind as the baseline. Other races in the pathfinder world, like gnomes, are naturally more skilled. In my mind however, that just means they have a higher standard of craftsmanship. For a human to succeed at making a normal longsword he needs to make a dc15. To the gnome this may be considered something any novice can do, and a journeyman is expected to be able to make a standard gnomish hook hammer, which is a dc18.
You can be really good at a skill at level 1, but only if you are super specialized at the task or have exceptionally high abilities.
Not really, no. The character I described spent a grand total of one feat and one skill point on it, which is quite typical for anyone wanting to enter a specific profession.
An item with a DC10 is something easy, like a frying pan. This is the exact kind of thing you would give to your apprentice to make.
No, an easy item is DC 5. (The rules are written down, you know)
Martial weapons are NOT typically standard items; there's not much call for them (remember that unless you have PC classes, you need to spend a feat to use them effectively. There will be no more people out there who can use a greatsword than who have Skill Focus.)
In fact, a sword would typically be a masterwork item for a historical smith.
Normal npcs get an ability spread of 13 12 11 10 9 8. Lets say Joe has a friend Bill who is also an apprentice blacksmith. Bill has a 13 intelligence. He can make a DC15 at 1st level.
So can Joe. Bill can take 10 to make a DC 15 item at first level. That means that he can now reliably act as a professional smith.
Does his master look at the first thing Bill makes and say done, you've graduated, you're now a journeyman?
Historically, yes. Or more accurately, Bill can approach the rest of the guild to force the master to do that. At the point where Bill can start working on his own, making items of "professional" quality, he's now a journeyman. That's the point at which Bill can demand to be paid a salary for his work instead of just working for bed and board. If the master craftsman he's working for doesn't like that,... well, traditionally Bill would submit a piece of his own workmanship to the guild as a `prentice piece and the masters as a whole could judge whether it was of professional quality. (For a carpenter, a typical 'prentice piece would be an intricately carved wooden chest.)
The guild for political reasons would probably support the master. But at this point we're no longer talking about skill levels.
No, that's usually not how those things play out. Ok great, he's more talented than Joe, but there's still things the master can teach him.
Of course there are -- that's why Bill should be a journeyman instead of a master.
Traditionally, Bill will remain a journeyman until he can produce a piece -- that's a single piece -- of "masterwork quality." That's where the term "masterwork" came from, in fact. Historically, even guildmasters couldn't, or didn't, turn out masterwork quality all the time. (Partly, there's no market. If you just want a sea chest, why pay extra for masterwork? But also, it's a very high standard.)
So Bill could easily make four or five pieces, wait until he rolls a 20, and submit that specific piece as a masterwork and qualify technically, as a master.
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In my mind, Life = 1 XP/day for your average non-heroic person. So, assuming that your average commoner works just about every day, he or she is going to earn about 350 XP/year. At the medium rate of advancement, it's going take him/her about 6 years to go from level 1 to level 2. Sounds like a good length for an apprenticeship, especially if most commoners start doing their thing around 15 or 16.
It's going to take another 8-9 years to get from level 2 to level 3. Nice early career. You're going to see a lot of these around, plenty of 2nd-level folks. Maybe some of them, through luck or skill, have achieved some Major Success in the careers, earned some XP awards, and moved a little faster.
It'll be 11-12 years from 3rd to 4th, mid career. Still plenty of these around, but not as many as level 2's because not everyone has the same ability scores and some of may never ever have anything like a Major Success, so they're just plodding along 1 XP at a time, falling behind their more skilled counterparts, plus death/disease/random accidents/wandering monsters start to take their toll.
Late careers is going to last over 17 years until he/she reaches 5th level. So our guy/gal started at age 15 + 6 + 8 + 11 + 17 = 57 years old at this point. For your average dirt-poor medieval commoner, he/she is near (or past) the end of his/her productive years, especially with physical ability scores dropping. If he/she is engaged in non-physical work, he she might be able to last a little longer. But it's another 23 years to 6th level (age 70), so most non-heroics just aren't going to get there.
Recap - In my mind, the norm is going to be something like:
- age 15-20 = level 1
- age 21-28 = level 2
- age 29-39 = level 3
- age 40-56 = level 4
- age 57-69 = level 5
- age 70-103 = level 6
Obviously, there will be variations depending on if the individual has any extraordinary adventures - solving a mystery, major success in craft or business, helping defend the town from bandits or roving beasts, etc. And I'm not sure what to do with non-humans. Maybe that's why dwarven craftsmanship is so good - they just have longer to get better on it. And maybe super long-lived races like elves gain Life XP at a slower rate because they're so laid-back - why rush when you've got 700 years to finish a project.
Anyway, no hard and fast rule, an NPC should be as good at something as you want her to be, but if I have to guesstimate, that's about how I do it.
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@Orfamay: I gave my thoughts on the way I do things, by all means ignore it and do it your way. I guess I made the mistake in thinking you wanted explanation and weren't just trolling for an argument.
@Mosaic: never thought of the life is 1XP a day thing, I like that.
As for the longer lived races, how do you account for their delayed learning as written in the rules? It always seemed weird to me that it takes an elf or a dwarf so much longer to learn what is necessary to be a first level character than it takes a human. So do elves really end up level 12 when they're really old, or does it just take them a lot longer to get to level 6? Or does it take an elf 15 years to learn to walk, 30 to get potty trained, and they don't finish puberty until they're 100? After which they suddenly start learning as fast as a human. Cause that still seems really silly. I've yet to come up with a good explanation as to why a first level elf is 110 years old.
Sorry, total thread derail.
When it comes to the arcane (i.e. being a wizard), here's the system I used to use. It's based on terms from 1E Forgotten Realms, Dreams of the Red Wizards, so it doesn't apply to more mundane professions.
Level 1-4: Apprentice. You can handle only the simplest of spells. You'll get them to go off, but you won't have many of them.
Level 5-8: Journeyman. Here, the benchmark is dispel magic. Your understanding of magic has grown to the point you can now unravel it...sometimes. In time, you'll begin to understand how to imbue items with it, leading to....
Level 9-12: Master. Now you can begin to truly grasp the intricacies of magic, as you can craft at least basic magical items and later on more complex items. Another benchmark: you can now travel the planes a bit, or at least through them via teleport.
Level 13-17: Senior Master. Reality is starting to bend to your whims via limited wish. Sure you got it done before, but now you're much more flexible about it. Fiends are available for your needs as well (old cacodemon spell). Then, in the end, you attain maximum power:
Level 18+: Archmage. You can cast wish. Enough said. Though in the Realms, now you're barely competent compared to Mystra's Chosen :)
Note that I would still use this today, more or less, as the measure of power here is based on your spellcasting and to a lesser extent item-crafting abilities. With item creation feats available much sooner to us, I'd stick with the spells as guidelines. It can also be retooled for specialists. For example, a necromancer attains mastery at level 9 because he can (finally!) animate dead. A conjurer is an archmage when any creature is at his beck and call (gate) and so on.
As for the longer lived races, how do you account for their delayed learning as written in the rules?
Change the rules. All the longer-lived-than-human races hit puberty at about the same time; after that, their 'immortality factor' kicks in and slows their aging.
I run higher numbers than I've seen from everyone in this thread. The issue is that if it's that hard to get to levels that high, why are there 9-class-level NPCs that barely matter in Adventure Paths and why is every character of notable level trying to kill you?
Also, because of how fast PCs level it just breaks my belief a little too much when they surpass most 500-year-old Elven mages in 3 months. My PCs are still truly exceptional, especially at winning where they have no right to, but they understand that they're not the biggest bads around.
Do most of you run primarily monsters for combat? I like having high-level NPCs with class levels because the enemies get to be characters. Some monsters can as well, but it's much harder.
I run higher numbers than I've seen from everyone in this thread. The issue is that if it's that hard to get to levels that high, why are there 9-class-level NPCs that barely matter in Adventure Paths and why is every character of notable level trying to kill you?
The other side of that is that, if it's that easy to get to levels that high, why are there any bugbears left? If 4th level is a senior apprentice, the world would be full of drunken apprentice cobblers strangling bugbears with their bare hands after closing time.
I run higher numbers than I've seen from everyone in this thread. The issue is that if it's that hard to get to levels that high, why are there 9-class-level NPCs that barely matter in Adventure Paths and why is every character of notable level trying to kill you?The other side of that is that, if it's that easy to get to levels that high, why are there any bugbears left? If 4th level is a senior apprentice, the world would be full of drunken apprentice cobblers strangling bugbears with their bare hands after closing time.
Right, which is why I got for a more Skyrim-esque model. Non-combat NPCs are trivial to kill, but they are often knowledgeable, resourceful, or a plot point. NPCs who specialize in combat are typically competent and experienced. It is uncommon but not exceedingly rare to meet mid-level characters in leadership roles, and you better believe that every country has at least a few 18th+ level characters.
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Yeah, I'm more concerned with the PCs finding appropriate and heroically meaningful challenges at low level than running out of things to fight past level 15. Most of the campaigns I've been involved with ended in the 10-15 range anyway. And outsiders, dragons, and intelligent undead make great character enemies in a world where mortals rarely reach high levels.
My level progression for the current campaign was partly designed based on how I saw the PCs progressing in the world. A few levels of puttering about in the wilderness to gain some experience (provoking at least one bigger fish in the process). Now at level 4 they're starting to build a regional reputation, though they're not the most powerful people around either in level or in influence. I expect them to progress into the national and world influence arenas in the course of the campaign, and since there are a few NPCs of opposing viewpoints up to about level 15 they should get into conflict with some of them, whether lethal or just heavy intrigue. If we decide to keep going into levels 15+ they'll probably graduate to interplanar adventures.
I run higher numbers than I've seen from everyone in this thread. The issue is that if it's that hard to get to levels that high, why are there 9-class-level NPCs that barely matter in Adventure Paths and why is every character of notable level trying to kill you?
I don't run APs so I don't have any 9th level PC class NPCs who don't matter.
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I use a scale something along the lines of:
1: Entirely Inexperienced
2-3: Beginner
4-6: Moderately Skilled
7-10: Very Skilled
11-15: Masterful
16-20: Legendary
21+ (mythic or epic): Off the Scale
...This being in reference to proper class levels, or course. NPC classes are a different scale, which is lower since most NPC classes aren't combat specialists. Something like:
1: Fodder
2-4: Mildly Influential
5-9: Influential
10: Very Influential
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I run higher numbers than I've seen from everyone in this thread. The issue is that if it's that hard to get to levels that high, why are there 9-class-level NPCs that barely matter in Adventure Paths and why is every character of notable level trying to kill you?The other side of that is that, if it's that easy to get to levels that high, why are there any bugbears left? If 4th level is a senior apprentice, the world would be full of drunken apprentice cobblers strangling bugbears with their bare hands after closing time.
I think of it as any given area has an average party level. Everything in that area will tend to run in packs equaling that apl. If your group is too low, you get beat up by groups tougher than you, if your group is too high, you start a war.
So bugbear can still live in an apl 10 area, they just have to travel in groups of 16. Simple rule of safety in numbers. Also politics. Two groups of unmatched power can live side by side, depending on their relationship to one another. In the world where the humans are more powerful and plentiful then the nearby bugbear tribe, maybe the tribe is forced to pay taxes to the humans for the right to live on their land.More examples. If you have an area where humans live and they can only travel in groups of 3, and hill giants are common, then the humans must be level 5 to match the cr7 of one giant. If the humans regularly traveled on their own, they must be level7. And they would tend to cap out a few levels above the apl of the area. The idea being that if you are in an area where you fight cr7 encounters, you will quickly level 7 and not much further, having nothing higher level to challenge you.
I think of it as any given area has an average party level. Everything in that area will tend to run in packs equaling that apl. If your group is too low, you get beat up by groups tougher than you, if your group is too high, you start a war.I run higher numbers than I've seen from everyone in this thread. The issue is that if it's that hard to get to levels that high, why are there 9-class-level NPCs that barely matter in Adventure Paths and why is every character of notable level trying to kill you?The other side of that is that, if it's that easy to get to levels that high, why are there any bugbears left? If 4th level is a senior apprentice, the world would be full of drunken apprentice cobblers strangling bugbears with their bare hands after closing time.
That makes some sense, but it also conflicts with a lot of the fluff for various monsters. For bugbears in particular:
They are loners, preferring to live and kill on their own rather than form tribes of their own kind, yet it isn't uncommon to find small bands of bugbears working together, or dwelling in goblin or hobgoblin tribes where they function as elite guards or executioners. Bugbears do not form large warrens like goblins or nations like hobgoblins; they prefer smaller-scale mayhem that lets them keep their favorite acts (murder and torture) on a more personal level.
The idea of a group of 16 bugbears sticking together for safety against the barbaric humans is.... distinctive.