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Under the proficiency line of the Monk of the Empty Hand archetype:
Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a Two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff.
So, if a Monk of the Empty Hand has Weapon Focus, in either Light Hammer, Club, or Quarterstaff, does it apply to any weapon of corresponding size, or only to the actual weapon?
Only the actual weapon. The ability is telling you specifically what weapon is closest match per this sentence of the Improvised Weapon rules. "To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match." That is all.
No. Weapon Focus(Longsword) applies when fighting with a longsword AS a longsword, not when fighting with a longsword as an improvised weapon.
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Related: If a Monk of the Empty Hand has Weapon Focus(Quarterstaff) and uses a Quarterstaff, is he using it as a normal quarterstaff or as an improvised quarterstaff? Is the damage increased with Improvised weapon mastery? Can he take Quarterstaff Master to take Weapon Specialization in his "Improvised" quarterstaff?
Actually, weapon focus has weapon proficiency as a prerequisite.
Related: If a Monk of the Empty Hand has Weapon Focus(Quarterstaff) and uses a Quarterstaff, is he using it as a normal quarterstaff or as an improvised quarterstaff? Is the damage increased with Improvised weapon mastery? Can he take Quarterstaff Master to take Weapon Specialization in his "Improvised" quarterstaff?
Since the description of the MotEH doesn't say the monk MAY treat, this implies that it's not optional. The MotEH [implied 'always'] treats normal weapons as improvised weapons. If this is true, then he doesn't have the option to wield the quarterstaff as a quarterstaff. That might not be RAI, but it seems to be what it says.
For other characters that could wield a particular weapon as intended or as an improvised weapon, it's one or the other but not both at the same time. If you're wielding it properly, you get to use all the stuff like WF and WS. If you're wielding it in an improvised manner, you get to use Catch Off Guard or IWM. They don't mix.
Because you're not wielding it as intended, so the fact that you're really good at wielding it as intended is irrelevant. It's not Weapon Focus (Improvised Weapon that happens to be shaped like a longsword). You can't double-dip the improvised feats AND the Weapon Focus/Weapon Specializations.
In fact, some claim that a weapon can't be wielded as an improvised weapon AT ALL (without something like MotEH that clearly states you do). I don't believe that, but there it is.
When throwing a dagger as a dagger, you grip it properly for the technique you're using. Being well practiced in this technique (having weapon focus) helps.
When you throw a dagger as an improvised weapon, you just wing it, maybe like you'd throw a baseball. Maybe it hits point first, maybe it hits hilt first, maybe it hits sideways.
Improvised weapons do not usually use proficiencies (things like MotEH are specific exceptions and follow whatever rules are present in the class feature). Rules Quote: "... any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it". Since proficiency is a prerequisite for Weapon Focus, doesn't that indicate that WF doesn't function for that weapon when used in an improvised manner ?
I believe that the answers to both 1 and 2 are no.
1) Throw Anything and Catch Off Guard eliminate a penalty, but say nothing about granting proficiency. Thusly, you can't take WF or WS in improvised weapons.
2) I don't believe that +4 flaming bastard sword is a +4 flaming club when used as an improvised weapon. Those handy weapon enhancements are use activated, and you're not using the weapon as designed, so they don't activate.
I am not sure there is any "wielding it as intended" clause anywhere in the rules regarding Weapon Focus.
If so, then anything that alters how you wield something, makes Weapon Focus invalid.
For Example: Titan Mauler using Jotungrip.
Titan Mauler is using a specific class feature. Specific overrides General. The reason you generally can't get weapon focus when wielding as improvised weapon is that you are considered non-proficient when doing so.
This is not true when wielding an inappropriately sized weapon. You're still proficient, but the size mismatch imposes a penalty.
If you can ignore the prerequisites for Weapon Focus, what then?
Probably, you'd be RAW but not RAI (since I can't claim to know intent). At the least, you'd be stretching things. Don't try it in PFS. In a home game ? Bribe the GM. That might not even work.
You can be the best shot in the world, but if you use your (regular) bow as a club, all those WF(bow)/WS(bow) feats don't help. (yes, I'm aware that there's a special bow that is designed to be used as a club, that's another case of specific over general).
Sadly, this JJ thread doesn't address weapon focus.
I am not sure there is any "wielding it as intended" clause anywhere in the rules regarding Weapon Focus.
If so, then anything that alters how you wield something, makes Weapon Focus invalid.
For Example: Titan Mauler using Jotungrip.
It's the same argument as using a polearm as an improvised weapon to attack adjacent. A long spear wielded as an improvised weapon isn't a long spear and doesn't get any of the benefits of a long spear, feats, enchantments, class abilities, etc.
The only WF feats the MotEH can benefit from is Unarmed Strike and Shuriken.
The upswing of this is that the Monk can apply Catch-Off Guard and Improvised Weapon Mastery to any weapon the Monk uses, not to mention his Ki weapons.
2. Do the magical enhancements on improvised weapons apply when they are used improvisationally? Is that +4 flaming bastard sword now a +4 flaming club?
Someone else found this thread that addresses this.
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Also, abilities like Flaming apply, since they physically [magically, whatever], modifies the weapon.
As to RAW, you can't take Weapon Focus(Frying Pan) because Frying Pan isn't a Weapon. You can, if you take Equipment Trick(Frying Pan), however.
So, something like Weapon Focus(Frying Pan) can be used by the MoEH?
No, because there's no Weapon Proficiency (Frying Pan) and if you use a frying pan as an improvised weapon, you are not proficient with it. Proficiency is a prerequisite for Weapon Focus. Not proficient => No Weapon Focus.
What about the Combat Scabbard?
It is both a weapon, and an improvised weapon.
Do you mean this ?
You can use it as a weapon, with the stats shown in the table. OR you can use it as an improvised weapon. Not both at the same time.
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So, something like Weapon Focus(Frying Pan) can be used by the MoEH?No, because there's no Weapon Proficiency (Frying Pan) and if you use a frying pan as an improvised weapon, you are not proficient with it. Proficiency is a prerequisite for Weapon Focus. Not proficient => No Weapon Focus.
As I said, there are ways to get Weapon Focus without proficiency.
As I said, there are ways to get Weapon Focus without proficiency.
So what ? The fact remains that unless that way specifically works for (a particular) improvised weapon(s), you can't take Weapon Focus in that particular improvised weapon. You can't generalize that specific (probably not-RAI) loophole.
Unless you have some way of getting proficiency, you can't take Weapon Focus without one of those specific, exceptional ways of gaining WF that you mention.
Are you driving at something in particular ?
As I said, there are ways to get Weapon Focus without proficiency.So what ? The fact remains that unless that way specifically works for (a particular) improvised weapon(s), you can't take Weapon Focus in that particular improvised weapon. You can't generalize that specific (probably not-RAI) loophole.
Unless you have some way of getting proficiency, you can't take Weapon Focus without one of those specific, exceptional ways of gaining WF that you mention.
Are you driving at something in particular ?
I don't mean to be rude... but what did any of this mean?
There are ways to gain Weapon Focus without needing to meet the requirements for it...
So...
What is your contention to that? It looks like you are trying to contend his point... but... then... just lots of words that don't actually contend it.
Are you driving at something in particular?
I'm driving at the fact that Weapon Focus (some particular weapon), having a usual prerequisite of proficiency with that particular weapon, generally doesn't apply when using (that particular weapon) as an improvised weapon BECAUSE "any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it" UNLESS you've somehow managed to get proficiency with that particular weapon AS an improvised weapon.
The fact that there are ways to get Weapon Focus without having the prerequisite proficiency in specific cases doesn't change that, nor does it generalize into "you can use weapon focus when using the weapon you have focus for as an improvised weapon".
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Why not?
If there is a RAW reason behind the restriction you created, I do not know of it.
If you just don't like it, and just believe it is not RAI, then why not say so.
I mean, you seem to have presented a ruling, that you still must meet the prerequisites for a feat for it to function, even if you have an ability that specifically allows you to ignore the prerequisites.
That does not jive with a lot of class features.
Also, it is not a dang loophole, and it is quite rude, to put forth such implications.
So, Weapon Focus never applies, no matter what the chosen weapon is, or what they are currently wielding?
This is truly troubling, if a Monk of the Empty Hand can never benefit from said feat.
It's a monk, what do you expect, parity with other classes?
Weapon focus (improvised weapon)
No such weapon as "improvised weapon", sadly.
Like many other monk archetypes, the monk of the empty hand is a great concept poorly thought out and badly implemented.
I mean, you seem to have presented a ruling, that you still must meet the prerequisites for a feat for it to function, even if you have an ability that specifically allows you to ignore the prerequisites.
I did no such thing. In fact, I included an UNLESS in my restatement just for that situation.
Monk of the Empty Hand has no language in it granting proficiency with improvised weapons. In fact, it has language stating that the monk is proficient ONLY with Shiruken.
Any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it. Weapon Focus has a prerequisite of proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
So the only way for you to take Weapon Focus in a weapon that you don't have proficiency in is to get it without that prerequisite. That's possible in a limited number of cases. I can't make a blanket statement without examining each of those on a case by case basis. I do suspect that most wouldn't apply.
MotEH isn't granting Weapon Focus without prerequisites. Unless there's something else at work, the answer to the original question "So, if a Monk of the Empty Hand has Weapon Focus, in either Light Hammer, Club, or Quarterstaff, does it apply to any weapon of corresponding size, or only to the actual weapon? " is "Neither, weapon focus does not apply to improvised weapons wielded without proficiency."
There *MIGHT* be an "UNLESS", that is, if the monk has those WF feats granted in such a way that they function without prerequisites.
Even if the MotEH has those WF feats granted so that they function without proficiency in LH, C, or Quarterstaff, that's not what the monk is wielding. He's wielding some other weapon as an improvised weapon. He IS "substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon" but that is all.
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So, does Weapon Focus [Rope] work if you have, say, Equipment Trick? What about Weapon Focus [Spiked Chain] if you have the Knotted Rope trick? Does it not work since you are wielding it as a Spiked Chain instead of wielding a Spiked Chain?
Even if the MotEH has those WF feats granted so that they function without proficiency in LH, C, or Quarterstaff, that's not what the monk is wielding. He's wielding some other weapon as an improvised weapon. He IS "substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon" but that is all.
For sake of argument, let us say that the MotEH acquires Weapon Focus without need of the prerequisites. He chooses Club. He then acquires a club, and uses it as an improvised weapon that acts like a club.
Does Weapon Focus then apply?
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I find it odd that with all the training represented by Weapon Focus that you only learn to use it in the "intended way". Heck, wouldn't most skilled warriors consider the other ways to wield his weapons? Would a warrior ask himself, in the midst of his training, if he needed to throw his Katana how would he do it? I see many fictional cases were people "throw" their weapons effectively. This is an fantasy, why not allow someone to focus in learning how to wield a weapon in the unattended way?
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So, a 4th level fighter, with Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization, takes a level in Monk of the Empty Hand, and suddenly neither apply, no matter what his chosen weapon is?
Or, a 2nd level Ranger, takes Weapon Focus as one of his Combat Style feats, then takes a level in Monk of the Empty Hand, and it doesn't apply, no matter what weapon he chooses?
By the way, the Combat Scabbard, is different that the Sharpened Combat Scabbard:
Combat Scabbard
Statistics
Cost 1 gp Weight 1 lb.
Damage 1d4 (small), 1d6 (medium); Critical x2; Range —; Type B; Special improvised, see text
Description
This scabbard is an improvised weapon designed to allow you to remove it from your belt as a swift action when drawing the weapon it contains. Taking the Equipment Trick feat for a scabbard gives you additional combat options for using a scabbard. For the purpose of fighter weapon groups, a scabbard for a heavy blade is considered a hammer, and a scabbard for a light blade is considered a close weapon.
So, unique to this one weapon, it is both an improvised weapon, and a weapon.
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Now, the Sharpened Combat Scabbard:
Combat Scabbard, Sharpened
Statistics
Cost 10 gp Weight 1 lb.
Damage 1d4 (small), 1d6 (medium); Critical x2; Range —; Type S; Special see text
Description
This combat scabbard has a sharp blade on the outer edge, allowing you to use it as a weapon.
Different than the other Combat Scabbard, it is not an improvised weapon.
I find it odd that with all the training represented by Weapon Focus that you only learn to use it in the "intended way". Heck, wouldn't most skilled warriors consider the other ways to wield his weapons? Would a warrior ask himself, in the midst of his training, if he needed to throw his Katana how would he do it? I see many fictional cases were people "throw" their weapons effectively. This is an fantasy, why not allow someone to focus in learning how to wield a weapon in the unattended way?
Because this is the rules forum, and that's not RAW. In your own game, knock yourself out.
There are already rules for throwing weapons not intended to be thrown, you don't need to resort to the improvised weapon rules for that case.
It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on the following weapon tables), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
In general, Weapon Focus (particular weapon) does NOT apply to using that weapon as an improvised weapon, for the rules reasons I've already pointed out. It is possible there are some cases where focus applies because you've gotten around the proficiency requirement or there's some special class ability. But please stop trying to generalize such cases.
No matter how good you are with that bow as a bow, it's not going to help you bash somebody over the head with it.
So, a 4th level fighter, with Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization, takes a level in Monk of the Empty Hand, and suddenly neither apply, no matter what his chosen weapon is?
True. Because the Monk treats normal weapons as improvised weapons. As written, he doesn't appear to have the choice to wield weapons normally. If not intended, this would be a flaw in the way MotEH is written.
Or, a 2nd level Ranger, takes Weapon Focus as one of his Combat Style feats, then takes a level in Monk of the Empty Hand, and it doesn't apply, no matter what weapon he chooses?
Depends on exactly what weapon the ranger has focus in and what weapon he's wielding. You *might* get to keep the focus when wielding that particular weapon as an improvised weapon despite not doing so proficiently IF you took the focus in such a was as to not need the proficiency. I would content that, if true, this is a case of RAW over RAI but I can't say for sure.
This scabbard is an improvised weapon designed to allow you to remove it from your belt as a swift action when drawing the weapon it contains.
That's odd. My PDF of Adventurer's Armory reads "This scabbard is designed to allow you to remove it from your belt as a swift action when drawing the weapon it contains." No mention of "is an improvised weapon". I'll re-download to be sure I've got the latest version and check again.
I've re-downloaded Adventurer's Armory. I still don't see that text. Here's what I do see.
Combat Scabbard: This scabbard is designed to allow you to remove it from your belt as a swift action when drawing the weapon it contains. Taking the Equipment Trick feat (see page 22) for a scabbard gives you additional combat options for using a scabbard. For the purpose of fighter weapon groups, a scabbard for a heavy blade is considered a hammer, and a scabbard for a light blade is considered a close weapon.
I do see that the "Combat Scabbard, Sharpened" is listed in the Weapons Table inside the front and back covers, while the plain "Combat Scabbard" is not. In the inside text, the plain "Combat Scabbard" is first found in the "Adventuring Gear" section, not the "Weapons" section. It is also found in the "Equipment Tricks" part of the Combat chapter.
Is there any sort of source note ? Perhaps there was something in a blog or a FAQ or something about the Combat Scabbard ? It's certainly some sort of special case.
Is there any sort of source note ? Perhaps there was something in a blog or a FAQ or something about the Combat Scabbard ? It's certainly some sort of special case.As interesting and unique as this item is, no general rule should be extrapolated from a specific exception.
I agree. But I still want to know more about this specific item and where this specific exception comes from.