PFS Advice for not-yet-wildshaping wildshaper


Advice


Hey guys,

I would like to play a wildshaping-focused druid in PFS, but that is a 4th level ability. I want to focus on the physical ability scores, and less on spells. But what could I do before 4th level? I was thinking of just going into melee with shelai... You know that +1, 2d6 quarterstaff spell. Another thing I was wondering about; as human, is the extra bonus feat really important for such a bit, or can I switch it for +2 on 2 ability scores? Without it could be like:
STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 10
Or with that:
STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 10

Feats I'd like are natural spells at 5th level, and powerattack at some stage.

Thanks!


Pathfinder Society Primer has a trait that will double the time that you can remain wild shaped.

Maybe consider taking Magical Knack, and dipping two levels in to fighter, barbarian, or ranger. But that will delay your Wild Shape, and your animal companion. Though I now must muse about the possibility of raging while transformed... Or you could skip the Magical Knack trait, since you are specifically NOT focusing on spells.

Best advice for Wild Shaper, or any Shape changer, is to have you're wild shaped forms done up on paper ahead of time. Make sure you've read the ability and the spell it's based on carefully.

The Concordance

This is my PFS Druid Alias. Feel free to see how I did things.

Check out the various Shaman archetypes. They don't get Wildshape until 6th level, but you do gain a Totem Transformation ability at 2nd, which I used to great effect at low levels.

I also used Shillelagh fairly often, and still used it up until 10th level in combination with Vital Strike when we were too cramped underground for me to Wildshape. I took the Heirloom Weapon trait to gain proficiency with a Composite Longbow, but I never really used it after low levels.

I started with a 14 Wisdom, but in retrospect I really wish I had gone with a 16. Those bonus spells at higher levels are so worth it.


Start as a Human Saurian Shaman with IUS and Improved Grapple. The 2nd lvl totemic transformation will let you bite / claw / claw and rake. Use this option until you have wildshape, then retrain the above feats.

Also, make sure to take Combat Reflexes at 5th lvl, so by six lvl, when you can wildshape into a Huge Allosaurus, you can make a lot of attack of opportunities.

Take Improved Initiative at 3rd lvl, Power Attack as your 9th lvl bonus feat. Natural Spell at 7th lvl. Also, Powerful Form at lvl 9.

Start with an Allosaurus animal companion, then change it with a Deinonychus at 7th lvl, as you can increase size with buffs like animal growth and you want it to have as many natural attacks as possible.


Thanks for the advice guys!

Right now, I'm thinking something like:

Race: Human (Dual Talent racial trait)
Class: Druid (Saurian Shaman)

Ability Scores:
STR 14+2
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 14+2
CHA 10

1: Improved Initiative, animal companion (Allosaurus)
2: -
3: Toughness
4: +1 STR
5: Dodge
6: -
7: Natural Spell
8: +1 STR
9: Powerful Shape, Power Attack
10: -
11: Planar Wildshape

I'm not sure about traits. The wildshaping one is only for small/medium animals, which dinosaurs aren't most of the time.
I'll probably wear leather or hide armor, and that spell-quarterstaff when I don't have totem powers/they run out. After 6th level, I'll be rampaging as a dinosaur ;)


Solid build, but check the following:

Your totemic transformation at lvl 2 is powerful. You can have 3 attacks at lvl 2, and with Improved grapple you can grapple someone + make him two attacks per round, which is something even the Tetori monk will be jealous for at low lvls. After you you aquire wildshape, these feats are almost useless, but until then they are a great investmnet and you can easily retrain them for something more useful.

Speaking of which, you should definately have Combat Reflexes in your feat list by the time you have wildshape. You will be Huge when you change to Allosaurus, half your attacks in a fight could potentially be AoOs.

Another great combination of feats is the spell focus: conj, augment summoing and superior summoning. You can summon dinosaurs as a standard action, meaning that you can use the Reach Cleric tactic: wildshape into a huge allosaurus with combat reflexes, summon a dinosaur and take potition just outside of their reach. Now, in order to attack you or someone else, they need to walk through your threatening area, eating an AoO and ending up potentially flanked by your summons. Great tactic against melee enemies.

It is easy enough to fit all these feats without disturbing your "core feats (natural spell, powerful form and planar wildshape). Just retrain IUS and Improved Grapple for Spell Focus: Conj. and Augment Summoning, take superior summoning at 3rd lvl and Combat Reflexes at 5th lvl. You need to drop the Dual Talent racial trait, but opening up such tactics is easily worth the small loss of some Wisdom.

Finally, consider a stat array like this:

STR 15+2 (+1 at 4th, 8th and 12th lvls)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 8

Starting with 17 Str will let use scale it to 18 in 4th lvl, a trick greatly used for maximising your stat efficiency for PFS play. Dropping Cha to 8 will not affect your handle animal score if you keep it at max ranks as you should, given that as a Human with 10 Int you will have 5 skill point per lvl.

Have you considered your traits? I also suggest against the wildshape related one, as you also noticed is useless for combat, and you already excel as a scout out of it. Good ones are the ones that give +2 Initiative like Reactionary, the Lessons of Chaldira, as is touch of divinity for accessing Arcane Strike (take it in place of Superior Summoning) and of course Finding Haleen. I do not know which of these are PFS legal though. Dirty Fighter is another trait you can take full advantage of.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As far as I can tell, Shillelagh is your best bet for doing damage before you can wildshape. You don't need to use it on easy fights, since it's limited. Your normal attack of +3 (1d6+4) is quite respectable by itself even before turning it into a +4 (2d6+5). At leve1 1, anyways. And it's still okay for level 2. If it seems lower than the fighter's damage, that's okay! You also have your animal companion doing stuff.


Thanks for the response, but I have a few sidenotes.
That grappling build might be cool, but I don't know how PFS handles retraining; additional resources refers to the guide for organized play, page 10, when it comes to retraining. page 10 only lists 1st level retraining.
For combat reflexes: the DEX of this character is 14, -4 for wildshaping into a huge animal means no extra AoO. Without it, I can keep dual talent, taking the summoning feats at 1, 3 and 5. Normally, I'm not that comfortable dumping stats, but this time it the concept I have in mind ;) This way, I can keep Wisdom at 16, which was what Sithis recommended.


I've also been looking at traits, and reactionary and second chance seem good and character-fitting ones.


Arcturus24 wrote:

Thanks for the response, but I have a few sidenotes.

That grappling build might be cool, but I don't know how PFS handles retraining; additional resources refers to the guide for organized play, page 10, when it comes to retraining. page 10 only lists 1st level retraining.
For combat reflexes: the DEX of this character is 14, -4 for wildshaping into a huge animal means no extra AoO. Without it, I can keep dual talent, taking the summoning feats at 1, 3 and 5. Normally, I'm not that comfortable dumping stats, but this time it the concept I have in mind ;) This way, I can keep Wisdom at 16, which was what Sithis recommended.

Retraining is allowed in PFS, but requires that you own the Ultimate Campaign source, and costs Prestige Points in addition to the gold cost. I can look up the exact rules later if no one responds sooner


Arcturus24 wrote:

Thanks for the response, but I have a few sidenotes.

That grappling build might be cool, but I don't know how PFS handles retraining; additional resources refers to the guide for organized play, page 10, when it comes to retraining. page 10 only lists 1st level retraining.
For combat reflexes: the DEX of this character is 14, -4 for wildshaping into a huge animal means no extra AoO. Without it, I can keep dual talent, taking the summoning feats at 1, 3 and 5. Normally, I'm not that comfortable dumping stats, but this time it the concept I have in mind ;) This way, I can keep Wisdom at 16, which was what Sithis recommended.

About retraining, Wolfspirit answered what I knew.

I am sure that by this time you will be able to afford a belt of dex, so you can still make this kind of tactic happen, if you wish so.

Shadow Lodge

Xot wrote:


Maybe consider taking Magical Knack, and dipping two levels in to fighter, barbarian, or ranger.

Magical Knack is banned from PFS, you can not get this trait for legal play.


XMorsX wrote:

Start as a Human Saurian Shaman with IUS and Improved Grapple. The 2nd lvl totemic transformation will let you bite / claw / claw and rake. Use this option until you have wildshape, then retrain the above feats.

Also, make sure to take Combat Reflexes at 5th lvl, so by six lvl, when you can wildshape into a Huge Allosaurus, you can make a lot of attack of opportunities.

Take Improved Initiative at 3rd lvl, Power Attack as your 9th lvl bonus feat. Natural Spell at 7th lvl. Also, Powerful Form at lvl 9.

Start with an Allosaurus animal companion, then change it with a Deinonychus at 7th lvl, as you can increase size with buffs like animal growth and you want it to have as many natural attacks as possible.

I have to disagree on almost all points here. IUS for wildshape is not legal for PFS. Improved grapple is not optimal as a lot of the better wildshape options will give you grab for free, particularly if you go Shaman.

Combat reflexes is not great in that as you are able to wildshape into huge creatures that have reach and potentially a lot of AOOs, you get hit with a dex penalty limiting combat reflexes utility.

If you are waiting until level 9 for power attack you are seriously hamstring your character. Take it at 3.

As I see it you have the AC recommendations backwards. At early levels the Deinonychus/Raptor is better, when the Allosauras hits level 7 it gets reach, pounce and grab making it the better choice. I think it can even take narrow frame feat to eliminate the squeeze penalty in 5ft areas.

You shoukd take natural spell as soon as you can.

Sczarni

Merck wrote:
Xot wrote:


Maybe consider taking Magical Knack, and dipping two levels in to fighter, barbarian, or ranger.
Magical Knack is banned from PFS, you can not get this trait for legal play.

Magical Knack was made legal last year.


pogie wrote:
XMorsX wrote:

Start as a Human Saurian Shaman with IUS and Improved Grapple. The 2nd lvl totemic transformation will let you bite / claw / claw and rake. Use this option until you have wildshape, then retrain the above feats.

Also, make sure to take Combat Reflexes at 5th lvl, so by six lvl, when you can wildshape into a Huge Allosaurus, you can make a lot of attack of opportunities.

Take Improved Initiative at 3rd lvl, Power Attack as your 9th lvl bonus feat. Natural Spell at 7th lvl. Also, Powerful Form at lvl 9.

Start with an Allosaurus animal companion, then change it with a Deinonychus at 7th lvl, as you can increase size with buffs like animal growth and you want it to have as many natural attacks as possible.

I have to disagree on almost all points here. IUS for wildshape is not legal for PFS. Improved grapple is not optimal as a lot of the better wildshape options will give you grab for free, particularly if you go Shaman.

Combat reflexes is not great in that as you are able to wildshape into huge creatures that have reach and potentially a lot of AOOs, you get hit with a dex penalty limiting combat reflexes utility.

If you are waiting until level 9 for power attack you are seriously hamstring your character. Take it at 3.

As I see it you have the AC recommendations backwards. At early levels the Deinonychus/Raptor is better, when the Allosauras hits level 7 it gets reach, pounce and grab making it the better choice. I think it can even take narrow frame feat to eliminate the squeeze penalty in 5ft areas.

You shoukd take natural spell as soon as you can.

What are you talking about? Improved Unarmed Strike is a feat totally legal in PFS. It is a feat tax for improved grapple, so that you can take advantage of the rakes of your totemic transformation. Of course and it drops in usefulness when you take wildshape, and this is why I suggested to retrain both of them at that time.

No matter your reach, if you do not have combat reflexes you cannot do more than one AoO. A druid with 1 starting dex and a belt of dex still has 12 Dex as a huge allosaurus, meaning one more AoO with Combat reflexes. It potentially doubles your attacks, so it is totally worth it.

A medium BAB pc that does not use two-handed weapons neitehr has absurpt Strenght does not benefit from power attack so badly. I would rather have Power Attack over dodge or Toughness, but not over augment summoning and combat reflexes when you eventually become Huge. I could see taking it earlier and retraining it when he can get it as a bonus feat at lvl 9, becuase it is very useful as soon as you can increase your Strengh with wildshape.

I will agree though that Deinonychus is better at low lvls, with weapon finesse it is very accurate and durable, and Allosaurus has secondary attacks at this lvl.

However, despite the fact that Allosaurus is stronger by itself after the 7th lvl, the Deinonychus with his 5 attacks makes much better use of your buffs. The more attacks you have, the more damage they add, as with your buffs you can add static damage to your attacks but not more natural attacks. Allosaurus has the benefit of having grab, but in the end the Deinonychus is going to be utilised better.


XMorsX wrote:
pogie wrote:
XMorsX wrote:

Start as a Human Saurian Shaman with IUS and Improved Grapple. The 2nd lvl totemic transformation will let you bite / claw / claw and rake. Use this option until you have wildshape, then retrain the above feats.

Also, make sure to take Combat Reflexes at 5th lvl, so by six lvl, when you can wildshape into a Huge Allosaurus, you can make a lot of attack of opportunities.

Take Improved Initiative at 3rd lvl, Power Attack as your 9th lvl bonus feat. Natural Spell at 7th lvl. Also, Powerful Form at lvl 9.

Start with an Allosaurus animal companion, then change it with a Deinonychus at 7th lvl, as you can increase size with buffs like animal growth and you want it to have as many natural attacks as possible.

I have to disagree on almost all points here. IUS for wildshape is not legal for PFS. Improved grapple is not optimal as a lot of the better wildshape options will give you grab for free, particularly if you go Shaman.

Combat reflexes is not great in that as you are able to wildshape into huge creatures that have reach and potentially a lot of AOOs, you get hit with a dex penalty limiting combat reflexes utility.

If you are waiting until level 9 for power attack you are seriously hamstring your character. Take it at 3.

As I see it you have the AC recommendations backwards. At early levels the Deinonychus/Raptor is better, when the Allosauras hits level 7 it gets reach, pounce and grab making it the better choice. I think it can even take narrow frame feat to eliminate the squeeze penalty in 5ft areas.

You shoukd take natural spell as soon as you can.

What are you talking about? Improved Unarmed Strike is a feat totally legal in PFS. It is a feat tax for improved grapple, so that you can take advantage of the rakes of your totemic transformation. Of course and it drops in usefulness when you take wildshape, and this is why I suggested to retrain both of them at that time.

No matter your reach, if you do not have combat...

IIRC IUC is an approved feat in PFS but does not work with natural attacks.

A wildshape druid should be focusing on strength, not dex to get more aoos. Rescources are limited in PFS and between equipping your AC, saving for wild armor, belt for strength etc, a +dex belt is pretty low on the shopping list. You may be able to afford a str/dex bely but not until much later 9-10ish.

AOO are great but situational, Power attack is going to add damage to every attack you do, and with some shapes offering 5 primary attacks per round to suggest waiting until level 9 for it is incorrect in my opinion.


Here's the PFS retraining rules:

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, p. 10 wrote:
After 1st level, if you own a copy of Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Campaign, you may use the retraining rules that begin on page 188 to alter your character. Such changes must be made in the presence of a Pathfinder Society GM, the GM must initial each change, and each change must be noted on an official Pathfinder Society Chronicle sheet. If the GM wishes to audit your character before the changes are made, you must present the character to the GM. If time is a limiting factor, the GM may choose not to allow retraining during that session. When utilizing these retraining rules, you must expend wealth as outlined in the Retraining section of Ultimate Campaign, as well as 1 Prestige Point per day of retraining since time between scenarios is undefined.

Sczarni

pogie wrote:
IIRC IUC is an approved feat in PFS but does not work with natural attacks.

Huh? That's like saying "IUS is legal, but it does not work with longswords".

Every creature and every form is capable of making an unarmed strike. Every. Creature. That. Exists.

A Tengu Monk can even Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite.

The Improved Unarmed Strike feat simply gets rid of the Attack of Opportunity that you would normally accrue otherwise.

If you're a Druid, in T-Rex form, with Improved Unarmed Strike, you can absolutely punch, kick, shoulder slam, or headbutt to your heart's content. You can even Punch/Bite, or Punch/Punch/Bite.

Would anyone DO that? Probably not. The penalties are huge. But it's perfectly legal within the Pathfinder rules set. And PFS has no stipulations against it, either.


Nefreet wrote:
pogie wrote:
IIRC IUC is an approved feat in PFS but does not work with natural attacks.

Huh? That's like saying "IUS is legal, but it does not work with longswords".

Every creature and every form is capable of making an unarmed strike. Every. Creature. That. Exists.

A Tengu Monk can even Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite.

The Improved Unarmed Strike feat simply gets rid of the Attack of Opportunity that you would normally accrue otherwise.

If you're a Druid, in T-Rex form, with Improved Unarmed Strike, you can absolutely punch, kick, shoulder slam, or headbutt to your heart's content. You can even Punch/Bite, or Punch/Punch/Bite.

Would anyone DO that? Probably not. The penalties are huge. But it's perfectly legal within the Pathfinder rules set. And PFS has no stipulations against it, either.

Ahh you are correct. I was think of improved natural attack which is not PFS legal. I wasnt reading too closely. I was still trying to wrap my head around a melee oriented Druid waiting til 9 to pick up power attack.

Sczarni

My melee-focused Druid will not be picking up Power Attack. I Wildshape into a Celestial Stegosaurus and Smite/Vital Strike. I can't afford the -3 to hit that Power Attack gives me at 11th level. If that one hit misses, I'm screwed.

Now my Spinosaurus Animal Companion with a 30 Strength unbuffed? Yeah, I gave him Power Attack as soon as I could.


Nefreet wrote:

My melee-focused Druid will not be picking up Power Attack. I Wildshape into a Celestial Stegosaurus and Smite/Vital Strike. I can't afford the -3 to hit that Power Attack gives me at 11th level. If that one hit misses, I'm screwed.

Now my Spinosaurus Animal Companion with a 30 Strength unbuffed? Yeah, I gave him Power Attack as soon as I could.

I see what you mean by not wanting to take the minus on to hit on a vital strike. For me though, with a pfs character, I would rather get power attack for roughly 90% of the characters life instead of getting the most out a feat I won't see until level 8. Personal preference I guess.

Shadow Lodge

Nefreet wrote:


Magical Knack was made legal last year.

Really? That is sweet!


Thanks for the advices everyone, you have been really helpful. I'll be going with the summoning feats, with dual talent and power attack at 9th, dropping combat reflexes. My animal companion will be an allosaurus, probably for my entire carreer, as he has a nice number of attacks, good strength and good AC (compared to the deinonychus). Again, thanks so much for all the help!


Oh wait, forgot to say: I don't own Ultimate Campaign, so I can't retrain :(

Scarab Sages

Arcturus24 wrote:
Oh wait, forgot to say: I don't own Ultimate Campaign, so I can't retrain :(

The PDF is cheap, and it has some fantastic traits.


Arcturus24 wrote:
Thanks for the advices everyone, you have been really helpful. I'll be going with the summoning feats, with dual talent and power attack at 9th, dropping combat reflexes. My animal companion will be an allosaurus, probably for my entire carreer, as he has a nice number of attacks, good strength and good AC (compared to the deinonychus). Again, thanks so much for all the help!

You are welcome, but bear in mind that Allosaurus has secondary claw attacks in contrast to the Deinonychus, meaning that he will probably deal less DPR. Also he has much lower Con.

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