That's in error though. The monk offers a set increase to the monks unaltered unarmed strike, starting at a 2 size increase and then 1 afterwards. When used with a natural attack + FCT you aren't doing that, but are in fact making a substitution/replacement for what's on the chart ignoring the natural weapons base damage.
if you choose to apply the effect then the effect applies exactly in the same way it augments a normal unarmed strike, that is all i was suggesting.
are you? I don't see why, you're simply applying the monk's unarmed strike class feature to your Natural weapon, as far as I can see.
The FAQ should only make it so that FCT is effected by Monk's unarmed strike.
are you? I don't see why, you're simply applying the monk's unarmed strike class feature to your Natural weapon, as far as I can see.The FAQ should only make it so that FCT is effected by Monk's unarmed strike.
It's quite clear you are. EVERY character of the same size unarmed strike deals the exact same damage with the monk chart.
With FCT, the size of the natural weapon has NO effect on the monk chart. It's clear that the effect is different for natural weapons compaired to an unarmed strike.
Let me ask you a question. I know the the monk gets an increase to unarmed damage. I don't need to know anything other than the monks size and level. Lets take a 3rd level monk: they gain 2 sized in damage. Now without knowing the race/natural weapon what size gain do you get with FCT? Right there it the difference.
Why is it "a replacement with a set dice[?]"
So you are saying that MUS applies to the selected natural attack differently than it applies to Unarmed Strikes? That makes no sense to me. It says in FCT that the effect that augments unarmed strikes is applied to natural attack, so why would it be applied differently to natural attacks than it is to the selected natural attack
It's pretty much how I explained it to Bandw2.
Take a monk. Give it a level. I can tell you how much it's unarmed damage increased. You can't do that with FCT. In fact, it's possible that it's a reduction in damage. Clearly different that the normal monk. Monk is a simple increase, FCT is a blind replacement with the chart.
Second, it's an optional effect and not permanent. FCT doesn't cause you to erase your natural weapons damage and put in your unarmed damage. You can still deal normal natural weapon damage. Can you deal 'normal' unarmed damage with a monk? They don't get the option.
are you? I don't see why, you're simply applying the monk's unarmed strike class feature to your Natural weapon, as far as I can see.The FAQ should only make it so that FCT is effected by Monk's unarmed strike.
It's quite clear you are. EVERY character of the same size unarmed strike deals the exact same damage with the monk chart.
With FCT, the size of the natural weapon has NO effect on the monk chart. It's clear that the effect is different for natural weapons compaired to an unarmed strike.
Let me ask you a question. I know the the monk gets an increase to unarmed damage. I don't need to know anything other than the monks size and level. Lets take a 3rd level monk: they gain 2 sized in damage. Now without knowing the race/natural weapon what size gain do you get with FCT? Right there it the difference.
Why is it "a replacement with a set dice[?]"
So you are saying that MUS applies to the selected natural attack differently than it applies to Unarmed Strikes? That makes no sense to me. It says in FCT that the effect that augments unarmed strikes is applied to natural attack, so why would it be applied differently to natural attacks than it is to the selected natural attackIt's pretty much how I explained it to Bandw2.
Take a monk. Give it a level. I can tell you how much it's unarmed damage increased. You can't do that with FCT. In fact, it's possible that it's a reduction in damage. Clearly different that the normal monk. Monk is a simple increase, FCT is a blind replacement with the chart.
Second, it's an optional effect and not permanent. FCT doesn't cause you to erase your natural weapons damage and put in your unarmed damage. You can still deal normal natural weapon damage. Can you deal 'normal' unarmed damage with a monk? They don't get the option.
but that's an interpretation of how the monk's dice work.
I don't see anything about size increases, I see 2 charts showing what the dice should be for various sizes and levels.
also, I see that INA simply moves your damage die up as if you followed the increased size chart.
The weapon's effective size doesn't increase it modifies the weapons set damage, which happens to be what the monk's unarmed strike has changed.
but that's an interpretation of how the monk's dice work.
Isn't everything we're doing an interpretation of the rules?
I don't see anything about size increases, I see 2 charts showing what the dice should be for various sizes and levels.
That's what a size increase is, an increase to a set dice on a chart. Do you do something else when you increase size?
also, I see that INA simply moves your damage die up as if you followed the increased size chart.
That's what I was saying. An increase in damage dice. Which FCT isn't. d3, d4, d6 and d8 ALL end up with the same unarmed damage.
The weapon's effective size doesn't increase it modifies the weapons set damage, which happens to be what the monk's unarmed strike has changed.
Correct, but that's different than monks damage. Increase vs replacement.
but that's an interpretation of how the monk's dice work.Isn't everything we're doing an interpretation of the rules?
I don't see anything about size increases, I see 2 charts showing what the dice should be for various sizes and levels.That's what a size increase is, an increase to a set dice on a chart. Do you do something else when you increase size?
also, I see that INA simply moves your damage die up as if you followed the increased size chart.That's what I was saying. An increase in damage dice. Which FCT isn't. d3, d4, d6 and d8 ALL end up with the same unarmed damage.
The weapon's effective size doesn't increase it modifies the weapons set damage, which happens to be what the monk's unarmed strike has changed.Correct, but that's different than monks damage. Increase vs replacement.
I'm saying if the monk's damage was a replacement you wouldn't be able to do something like brawler and use lead blades on your punching dagger which does a 1d6. it isn't a replacement, that is literally not listed anywhere, it is like any other type of change to weapon dice.
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Here's my take on it: They stack. To explain this, lets look at the two feats in question.
Feral Combat Training
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Improved Natural Attack
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, it applies to a different natural attack.
So FCT says that you can augment a natural attack with things that apply to unarmed strikes. Mostly monk unarmed strike damage. SO you use your MUS damage with, say, your bite. Does it change this bite from a natural attack to an unarmed strike? No. It is still a bite. Therefore you can apply INA to the new damage number to this natural attack, bite.
"effects that augment an unarmed strike" ≠ Unarmed Strike/Monk's Unarmed Strike
The Monk's Unarmed Strike isn't an damage augmentation, it IS the damage itself, the Base Unarmed Strike Weapon Damage for a Monk of that level. It's certantly ment to be a replacement.
What the author ment by "effects that augment an unarmed strike" are spells like Magic Fang, Magical Weapon, Strong Jaw, which is pretty great, now you can just enchant your whole body with Magical Weapon both your claws will get enchanted, different from before.
In the first place, Feral Combat Training is just a wrong feat, who ever wrote it opened a BAD pandora's box. But now that it's here, try not to abuse it any more than it already is. Normaly natural weapons have big damages because you attack with them only once every round. FCT already "breaks the rules" allowing you to attack with them several times like a regular weapon. You can still increase your natural weapons in size for a bigger damage. If on top of that you still wanna add the MUS as an enhancement, then the game will be FUBAR.
"effects that augment an unarmed strike" ≠ Unarmed Strike/Monk's Unarmed Strike
The Monk's Unarmed Strike isn't an damage augmentation, it IS the damage itself, the Base Unarmed Strike Weapon Damage for a Monk of that level. It's certantly ment to be a replacement.
What the author ment by "effects that augment an unarmed strike" are spells like Magic Fang, Magical Weapon, Strong Jaw, which is pretty great, now you can just enchant your whole body with Magical Weapon both your claws will get enchanted, different from before.
In the first place, Feral Combat Training is just a wrong feat, who ever wrote it opened a BAD pandora's box. But now that it's here, try not to abuse it any more than it already is. Normaly natural weapons have big damages because you attack with them only once every round. FCT already "breaks the rules" allowing you to attack with them several times like a regular weapon. You can still increase your natural weapons in size for a bigger damage. If on top of that you still wanna add the MUS as an enhancement, then the game will be FUBAR.
it's a replacement as much as a medium greatsword with lead blade on it is always 3d6.
also, I already explained earlier that RAI they don't want the damage to stack, and thus shouldn't be allowed, but RAI is the only thing stopping this, so a GM can do this however they want.
FCT is a significant feat investment compared to a simple INA on a monk's unarmed strike, and thus i also see it can balance out kinda.
also, FCT only applies to multiple attacks when used in a flurry.
ALSO, natural attacks on PCs do not tend to have big dice, they're about normal for one-handed weapons. a wildshape is much different however, but i'm not sure you can get weapon focus with a wildshape's natural attacks.
Well, as long as everybody is happy, all good ^^