Goblin Squad Member
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The challenge I don't dispute, but its magnitude may not be so great.
The way I see it we should all go about the world as our characters and respond to activities as we would were we really there and our characters. The characters I know, whom I have interacted with in some meaningful way I can see their names over their heads as if I recognized them, even though they look like my own twin. Those I don't know have no name over their head. No blue names, red names, not even grey names. So if I see some armed unnamed men attacking a named man I will have a decent idea who's who. I can then meaningfully decide whether to go to my acquaintance' aid or not. If I don't he may have spotted my inaction and would then have a debt to settle with me, but if I aid him I have the chance that those attacking him may well be in the right. I should have to own the responsibility for my actions. If I don't know the named guy from Adam, or he was rude when I met him, I might well leave him to his own devices and be ready with an answer when he comes calling. "Why did you let those unnamed men kill me when you might have stepped in? he might ask. And then since he asked I could tell him that his previous behavior had not left me willing to gamble on his righteousness.
And that would work well, I think.
If I saw an unnamed man alone I might be prone to meet him. If I saw several unnamed men I would be rather cautious, and would certainly be polite, at least until I knew they were not worth a dog's tongue of salt.
Is it perfect? Nothing is. Would it be better? Look at the problems it would solve. Sure Red/Blue becomes who do I know... but that is pretty realistic, isn't it?
It really does deserve its own thread.
My problem with it boils down to the fact that it will make people either be fully RP or not play. Reasoning is that it is never "fun" to be the odd one out in an RP heavy game.
I actually support this idea as an individual, but I don't think it is right for us as a community to force our RP on people who don't want to, as this idea (may or may not) suggests.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a technological exercise, figure out how to keep track of which characters are known to which characters. Estimate how large the database has to be if there are a modest 100,000 total characters available.
Each character gets an ID. 100,000 fits well within a 2 byte short, but we can do a 4 byte integer just because. Each match gets a row when players become familiar, with the lower value ID being in column 1 and the higher being in column 2. If they are not familiar, there is no entry.
For any given two people, you search column 1 for the lower player ID and reference against column 2 for the other player.
Probably easier ways to do it than that, but short answer is... not a very big DB at all - a few megs maybe, since not all 100k users will know all other 100k users.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those that don't wanna RP, maybe there could be an option to exclude them or something. The issue with that would be the "min/maxers" using the "I don't wanna RP" option to gain an advantage so maybe that won't work. That is a tough one. I would guess it is a yes/no option without a "grey" choice.
I almost want to go with the "PF TT is a RP game and you don't start the game knowing every NPC (Depending on the DM maybe even the other PCs) so PFO should follow suit. However, it would lead to the same issue that BrotherZael stated, who says we have the right to force RP "rules" onto the community as a whole?
I really want to support this idea, but in the modern day MMO, I don't see it as a "perk" that it should be (for this style of game IMHO) But then again, maybe it could be one of those "niche" games and would possibly drive those who aren't interested in this style of play away. Not good from a financial position for GW, but those dedicated to the RP aspect would love it, atleast I think we would.
Anyway, anyone else have thoughts? Maybe if one of the devs could give us a "company POV?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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So the idea is that we can't see other character's names until we personally interact with them?
Not sure exactly the ramifications of something like that. It does seem to me like it would push bounty hunter and assassination roles into unplayability unless they had extra perks to make tracking their quarry down easier. I mean, you already have to find one little character amidst thousands of square miles, it'd be even harsher if you had to do that without any idea of whether the guy walking across the street is your mark or not.
What are people's ideas for constituting "interacting" with someone within the game? In other words, what do you think should turn somebody from unnamed into named?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm pretty good at recognizing the names of people I've interacted with before. If I see a group of people fighting I'll instantly recognize the names I've seen before while ignoring the rest and probably not committing the new names to memory.
I already have this system in place in my wormhole of a brain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Feydred
The names won't appear UNLESS you interacted with
i.e.
talked to personally (whispering/letters IC, PM being OOC
listened to (in same zone when that person talked)
fought with or against (I'm assuming, this can easily be no, because it could be some random rogue or a nameless soldier. in fact, this shouldn't constitute unless it is in a tournament or duel)
joined a party or guild with. maybe even settlement (when signing you looked at that group's roster, or "mark of phrasma holders" list in settlements, cause NPCs don't matter here... or do they?)
Being in the same area, or even looking at someone, will not pull up their names. you can't recognize random peoples names with this system because they don't appear automatically. Though if it is on a bounty or assassination mark you have, I guess that counts as interaction for your side.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about what some MUDs used to use in the day, where you have a /introduce command, or something like that so it would introduce yourself. Actually I think it was /greet but the point is it would be a commando that would intro yourself to nearby people.
@Shane, that was the idea that bounty hunters and assassins would have a rough time, even with names given, of finding your mark. That is where skills like knowledge local come in. In EVE there is a way to talk to specific contacts (NPC agents) that would give you the system a particular player was in. Maybe PFO could work something similar in. Make a knowledge local check to try to gain info. Based on the check you could get the hex, POI, or maybe wrong info in you roll a "1" lol. that could be fun.
the more I think about it, the more I hope there is a way to implement it without making everyone be hardcore RP or not want to play. This would add a lot of challenge and fun to the game IMHO. Expecially as an assassin, I really want the challenge of tracking down my mark. More than just chasing the character, but to use my skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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dig dig dig:
Knowledge(Local) skill used to transcribe "intelligence" of the locale onto paper, can be done by anyone with high enough transcribe/writing skill, knowledge, and proper materials (quill/ink and paper).
General Stores, Town kiosks, City centers, etc. can sell these scrolls to people for relatively cheap. gives info of everyone who belongs to that settlement, associated guilds and members, and whatever. Price based on information. basic: settlement members & buildings, better: all guilds a part of that settlement and their members (this includes owned PoIs in the vicinity, better: all the types of PoIs in the area, all PoIs controlled by the settlement, and so on.
Boom. Basic info can be cheap, easy to access.
Two systems implemented AND have reason for implementation
Hard intel can be bought (good for invasion forces' scouts eh?) for a high(er) price.
win-win-win
lose for the poor sob on the other end of the 'sin's blade...
dig?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Copied from another thread...
Personally I tend to agree with your suggestion. Though if someone has a criminal flag in a hex then I'd rather that be obvious and visible.
Another way of handling this would be to have a local bounties board, which has information of the top most wanted (repeat offenders) and perhaps those that have committed a recent crime. Characters would then to check the board and see a picture which would allow the criminal to be recognized. Once the criminal flag wears off the wanted poster is removed. You could also do something similar with bounties placed on a character, and assume it includes a picture of the target.
it looks like a good idea.
it will make things more realistic and i like that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea that Knowledge (Local) would automatically reveal the names of characters associated with the PC's (Local) settlement.
I also like the idea that a character's name (and associated information) wouldn't be available until the character is interacted with. However, what form that interaction takes is more tricky. You shouldn't need to Chat or PM a character to learn a little about them. What about asking another character about someone? That seems to me to be the classic information gathering exercise, but could be difficult to pull off in an MMORPG. How do you identify the character you are asking about, given that the point of the exercise is to learn who they are? Maybe tag them and then request information about that tag?
Probably more programming involved than is warranted for the end result, but it would be nice to see in an ideal world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea. This is what came to mind when I heard it:
- People go around using a name (by default their true name) and may change it at will from a list of created aliases.
- Whenever Character A interacts with Character B, Character A's name is broadcast around a certain size radius around him. Should Character B respond in a meaningful way his name is broadcast as well along the same radius.
- If after this broadcasting of names, a player finds a mismatch between identities, the offending character's name is added to a personal list of "Suspicious Characters". Player's may present names on the list to guards as proof, to other players (bounty hunters) as a verified source of info on people's identity, or they may broadcast (yell) it around as they see fit.
- Certain interactions (entering a settlement, buying weapons, etc.)
may demand proof of identity, i.e. papers. On failure of providing proper documentation the interaction is aborted. Every character has papers for their true name automatically and may never be taken away.
This forgery check is only done by the opposing character, not by everyone around them. Note that presenting papers should be automatic depending on the alias you are currently using.
- If people want to try, for example, to enter a settlement with a fake name they may provide false papers under that name (created by a forger). Their quality and the character involved's skill in detecting forgeries determine the rate of success of this. Subsequent aliases should increase in cost to acquire (XP or money). Destroying an alias should be costly as well.
-Having two or more known identities may be classified as a crime, depending on settlement.
That's more or less the gist of it. One of my main concerns is how to deal with bounties. Do you get to know the assassin's real name before you die or his alias? And of course there needs to be listed which interactions reveal names, which demand papers and those that can be done without revealing anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally like the idea of not being able to see all that much information about a character until you actually interact with them.
The only information that we will publically see, that we know for sure, is the Reputation of the character.
It is however very safe to assume that the character's (displayed) name, company and settlement will also be viewable by default.
I would hope that we will be able to toggle on or off what information we choose to make public, at a glance.
*Displayed Name: Remember the Disguise skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am going to go against most here and say that I am not in favor of it. Not that it is a bad idea or anything. Just that it would only work if it was done from the start, and in that case knowledge skills would need to be part of the MVP. Heraldry, local, etc... would be great, but there has not been much about them mentioned by the Devs yet.
The criminal, hostile, and heinous flags and systems were not designed for this (as far as I know). They were designed so that we can spot viable targets easier. This seems like it would be contrary to the balance that GW is trying to craft. It will be important for any less interested in PVP to spot "bad guys" or other "hostiles" as early in an encounter as possible. This either fosters a great deal more paranoia in the game, gives the advantage to those flagged, or both.
Names and affiliations are important for those reasons too. I am sure that there are MMOs that have such systems and they may be alright. I can't think of any, though, so I am not sure that it is a popular choice (on average). Not to say that because it is not done often, that it couldn't be done here. It would have to be done right and require a good deal of work and change to what is already being plotted out.
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I'm with Brings here--I think this idea is just a tad too extreme. People will end up just using hacks to see the names anyways (kind of like how GW was initially concerned about Stealth mechanics), and it makes things impractical for new players trying to hail people for assistance. And how do you handle chatting?
Newbie8765 Johnson: Help! I'm confused!
Nihimon: Here, follow me.
Nwbie8765 Johnson: Oh, okay! Thanks!
*Follows someone walking out of the city*
Nihimon: No, wait! Come back! That's not me!
Bluddwolf: >:D
;)
It's a nice idea, it just ain't practical.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is totally practical. The amount of data that has to be displayed and tracked is less. This is why in DAoC we would turn off names in battle to bring the frame rate back up instead of locking your system up. In chat you chat with people you've met instead of gold spammers. Your circle grows with your experience at a manageable rate. Employing hacks to see the names of strangers would be an absurd waste of time and effort. Let 'em.
Assassins and Bounty Hunters SHOULD be challenged. And of course it should begin at the start. Affiliations should be discernible when they have meaning and not before. And a hail would work no differently than it would otherwise.
The confusion you pretend to describe, KC, would not happen unless Newbie8765 Johnson had already met Nwbie8765 (If I have rightly figured out your scenario, which I am not terribly sure I have. How is Bluddwolf showing up as Nihimon?)
Oh yeah! Nihimon IS Bloodwolf, I forgot. Working As Intended (WAI) then.
Allow me to clarify the flaw in this idea, since my "pretense" has been "exposed".
If we do not see usernames in-game, what will you do with the chat? Have the text appear above people's heads like it's Runescape?
And you call me confusing? How does
unless Newbie8765 Johnson had already met Nwbie8765
make any sense at all? Is this just a cute jab at the typo?
EDIT: Also...
Employing hacks to see the names of strangers would be an absurd waste of time and effort. Let 'em.
If names have such small consequence, it's clearly not worth adding this feature to the game. I think you're overestimating the difficulty of the task. :P
EDITx2: At the risk of making this post awful large, I'm gonna have to draw attention to this.
The amount of data that has to be displayed and tracked is less.
I'm no computer expert, but I'm pretty sure that the data is still being tracked. Like with the original idea of Stealth, the data for the name still exists. You just have the extra variable of "Have these players associated enough to be able to see the names?"
Ultimately, I've gotta agree with Brother. The system is interesting, but messy for players and messy for the system. There's nothing wrong with being able to see usernames, and it can help avoid known troublemakers of the barely-legal variety.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The names feature already has to be added in your global schema. This filter has only to add them to your screen incrementally, according to how social you deign to be.
If it is as easy to hack as you say, then what does that say about any objection that it would be difficult to implement?
No, it was your typo after all. I didn't know it was a typo and tried to make it make sense because, well, you are KC and would not allow a typo to mislead me. I thought the typo was intentional and was thus mystified (read: confused per usual). I imagined it was the very problem you were pointing out. And I still don't think I get your objection there.
I understand, though, that for your own inscrutable Koboldean reasons you want to be greeted by a sea of names superimposed over one another in any crowd.
The names feature already has to be added in your global schema. This filter has only to add them to your screen incrementally, according to how social you deign to be.
If it is as easy to hack as you say, then what does that say about any objection that it would be difficult to implement?
No, it was your typo after all. I didn't know it was a typo and tried to make it make sense because, well, you are KC and would not allow a typo to mislead me. I thought the typo was intentional and was thus mystified (read: confused per usual). I imagined it was the very problem you were pointing out. And I still don't think I get your objection there.
I understand, though, that for your own inscrutable Koboldean reasons you want to be greeted by a sea of names superimposed over one another in any crowd.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand, though, that for your own inscrutable Koboldean reasons you want to be greeted by a sea of names superimposed over one another in any crowd.
Some games show name, guild, etc... when you hover your cursor over the toon. There are no "sea of names" issues there. No idea if the client requests the info, in that case, or if it is already there waiting to be shown by the action. If the latter, that would only barely lessen the draw on the system overall, but certainly lessen it on the video. I wonder if PfO will do something similar.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The names and personal information subject has been in debate for quite some time. A lot of good ideas have been thrown around that could work. I personally would love to see it limited to interaction. Deciding on the interaction is the tough part. But there has been several threads on this subject and a little input by GW. I am hoping that with Alpha and EE coming up that maybe one of the devs can tell us what is planned for this. <Looks around for Ryan or Lee>.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm with Brings here--I think this idea is just a tad too extreme. People will end up just using hacks to see the names anyways (kind of like how GW was initially concerned about Stealth mechanics), and it makes things impractical for new players trying to hail people for assistance. And how do you handle chatting?
Newbie8765 Johnson: Help! I'm confused!
Nihimon: Here, follow me.
Nwbie8765 Johnson: Oh, okay! Thanks!
*Follows someone walking out of the city*
Nihimon: No, wait! Come back! That's not me!
Bluddwolf: >:D;)
It's a nice idea, it just ain't practical.
I applaud your creativity, quite funny.
Sadly for Bluddwolf and his gang I'll be around also. And this nice guy not only knows how to fight back, but enjoys it.
Newbie8765 Johnson: Help! I'm confused!
Nihimon: Here, follow me.
Nwbie8765 Johnson: Oh, okay! Thanks!
*Follows someone walking out of the city*
Nihimon: No, wait! Come back! That's not me!
Bluddwolf: >:D
Nevy: /tell Nihimon Don't worry friend, I've got this.
:-)
I don't actually think Bluddwolf, or anybody on this forum, would deliberately abuse a system miscommunication to gank a newbie, for the record. ;D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I leave for two days
TWO DAYS
and already the amount of hatred is dying down (haven't checked "that thread", nor will I, but there are a lot of new posts so I assume it is working)
Anyway. I really do support this idea, but another thunk occurred to me just now: it might be "easy" with just some simple coding, but considering where we are right now, and considering how much "simple coding" has no doubt piled up... I can see why this may not be implemented any time soon (and thus ever)...
I hope it, or a variant, does.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i will borrow some arguments from an expert here.
Regarding people who don´t want to be frced to rp, well will they really have to? I would presume that they will find or start with a group of people they know and stick to playing with them mostly.
...most of those players will be spending their time in 4-6 person instances
– it’s irrelevant to them how many other players there are in the wider
game. There’s no need for an MMO to be able to support 10,000 simultaneous players per shard;
most players don’t know more than 250 other players anyway.
Imho not knowing people until they introduce themselfes or get introduced would improve immersion a lot?
Ultimately, players are paying to be immersed: immerse them!
--The only problem i see is they flagsystem honestly...
...unless...how about that, victims of crimes can report crimes to the watch or at the city hall.
that produces a wanted poster of the culprit.
players who check the wanted posters can see the criminal flags of players even if they don´t know the names
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Being
Was there still a way in DAoC (with names off) to tell friend from foe? What was it?
I don't recall, somehow. It seems to me there was a way to tell whether they were on my side or not but I'm not recollecting it. Someone will remember.
But DAoC did not use friendly fire rules. Your AoE would not affect friendlies.
Under my 'good' idea you would be able to tell friend from foe because your friends would have names.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I leave for two days
TWO DAYS
and already the amount of hatred is dying down (haven't checked "that thread", nor will I, but there are a lot of new posts so I assume it is working)
Don't worry, it is a very cyclical process. They go back and forth a lot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
--The only problem i see is they flagsystem honestly...
...unless...how about that, victims of crimes can report crimes to the watch or at the city hall.
that produces a wanted poster of the culprit.
players who check the wanted posters can see the criminal flags of players even if they don´t know the names
Sounds similar to another smart suggestion :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps an easy fix to the whole name hovering above our characters head issue, would be to allow players to turn this on and off manually.
Another options is for players to invest in a disguise skill (similar to what is mentioned for assassins) so if you don't want people to know who you are, change your outfit and use disguise to hide your true appearance. This would also be handy for shape-changers to 'disguise themselves as animals and such, or a characters name and flags could be automatically hidden and the name of the creature could replace their character name.
I'd be happy with either solution, though option two would be more fun and would require opposed skills checks and training put into Perception. In relation to shape-changed characters, skills points in the appropriate Knowledge skill would be required.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I think a big part of the issue is that people want to be able to turn their name on or off as well as turn off the nameplates over others.
"Forced Anonymity" is less about de-cluttering the UI and more about immersion. If I do not know you, how do I know your name, class, etc...and vice versa. Some have claimed such a system would reduce social interaction, I think it will increase social interaction...and require the interaction that does occur, to be more meaningful.
I also think a high "local" score should automatically populate your "Rolodex" for extremely high and low Rep individuals (PC or NPC).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps an easy fix to the whole name hovering above our characters head issue, would be to allow players to turn this on and off manually.
Another options is for players to invest in a disguise skill (similar to what is mentioned for assassins) so if you don't want people to know who you are, change your outfit and use disguise to hide your true appearance. This would also be handy for shape-changers to 'disguise themselves as animals and such, or a characters name and flags could be automatically hidden and the name of the creature could replace their character name.
I'd be happy with either solution, though option two would be more fun and would require opposed skills checks and training put into Perception. In relation to shape-changed characters, skills points in the appropriate Knowledge skill would be required.
The problem with #2 is that in a world where everyone has a name, he who has not will stand out like a sore thumb. If everyone has only the names of acquaintances showing then the disguise skill becomes meaningful, and removing your name from the eyes of those who think they know you. When they see you near and ask your name a fictitious 'cover' persona and name of your own design should appear. This may be the simplest solution for disguise, something assassins will very much need.
In my estimation #1 would be an inadequate solution. Who would impose ignorance on themselves that their competitors will not suffer?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another option is for everyone's name tag to start out as a generic title (i.e. "Male Human"). To gain further information you need to interact with them. Each time you encounter/interact with them, a recognition check is rolled to see if you remember their face and name. Interact with them enough or party with them for an hour or so and they get added to your list of acquaintances. After enough time they get added to your list of friends.
This system could also be used to allow you to identity 'famous' characters you've never met.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I really like idea of hiding full info (name, class, biography...) of unknown characters. Criminal posters, posted bounties, assassin contracts and monuments to public figures can serve as means of familiarizing/introduction.
As for problems with speaker identifications, they can be solved by using chat bubbles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hm. So when I interact with a wanted poster then the name/info of the character the poster is about becomes visible, perhaps in an abnormal color to indicate their Outlaw status. Have I got that right?
You should know it's your good idea :)
Yes, something like that.
I've also previously suggested a notice board that has the list of the currently wanted criminals. If you visited your settlements 'Most Wanted' board you would automatically have their identities added to your list of known criminals. Therefore you would automatically recognize them, unless they are disguised.
I imagine the list of criminals would 'appear' on the Most Wanted board as the character is flagged for the crime. Therefore you would need to regularly check the board. If you're one of your settlements guards or marshals then you should automatically be updated with who is currently a criminal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then the info fades away. Grows less populated. Eventually vanishes.
Indeed. Otherwise you have the situation of hunting down criminals that no longer have the criminal flag, which would get you in trouble reputation wise.
I would also imagine that the settlement leadership would have access to the list of characters that have been marked as a criminal. They could then choose to flag that person as an outlaw giving them a permanent criminal status for that community. If Settlements have the ability to share their criminal activity reports (perhaps via an IG item) the settlement leadership (more likely the settlements Sheriff or the equivalent) could choose to place a first time criminal on the outlaw list. Yet another reason for meaningful human interaction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to be on the "most wanted" boards :D
wait... that is for bad guys? ooohhhh....
Indeed. Imagine sneaking into a settlement to view their Most Wanted board, just to see if you're on there. It would also be fun if you could get a 'Notorious' title by being on the Most Wanted list of 3-5 Settlements. This would it much easier for other to identify you, and would be bragging rights in less lawful communities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really like idea of hiding full info (name, class, biography...) of unknown characters. Criminal posters, posted bounties, assassin contracts and monuments to public figures can serve as means of familiarizing/introduction.
As for problems with speaker identifications, they can be solved by using chat bubbles.
Ooooh, another golden goblin. Don't see many of those around these parts. Mostly it's just Decius with the inconvenience (or maybe convenience?) of having people mistake him for staff.
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I really like idea of hiding full info (name, class, biography...) of unknown characters. Criminal posters, posted bounties, assassin contracts and monuments to public figures can serve as means of familiarizing/introduction.
As for problems with speaker identifications, they can be solved by using chat bubbles.
While I don't care either way it is probably worth bearing in mind that there are large contingents in both the
Chat bubbles are a must have feature in game
and the
Chat bubbles are a pox on humanity camp
Personally I never have chat bubbles on if I can turn them off because I find them mildly irritating but there are many who absolutely hate them and wish to have nothing whatsoever to do with them.
From this I take
Chat bubbles should be a togglable option in game.
No feature should rely on chat bubbles being on.