Goblin Squad Member
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@Being
The reason I say that is because a game where full-immersion in RP is almost mandatory is the same line of spirit as a game devolving into a murdersim in-so-much-as if you don't like that style of play, but almost everyone is doing it, and it makes it harder for you to play in that game (and being the odd one out in an RP-heavy area generally does make it harder to play), why would you play that game, especially when you are paying for it? There would be plenty of other mmos that you can try
It was nothing you said specifically, and it is not directly about the system you proposed.
@Kobold
You troll you ;D
@Nihimon
Hello, Bludd is right in that bringing up year-old posts as fact is slightly outa order.
@Bludd
Is it that time of month again?
Never forget to pay this guy. Never
Forks over large amounts of gold in sacks labeled "For the purpose of easing tension among the lands" from a semi-trailer in the back-lot of Tony's Bakery
The things I do for this community
/sigh
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
Hello, Bludd is right in that bringing up year-old posts as fact is slightly outa order.
Fine. Let Bluddwolf and Xeen off the hook for being jerks to a guy who just came here to express his concerns about PvP and try to find out more about the game, and for being jerks to those of us who were actually trying to engage the guy and give him a more accurate picture of the game. Water under the bridge, no apology necessary.
Any complaints about the three posts I linked from last month? Here, here, and here? Or is it somehow rude of me to actually point out that Bluddwolf does consistently misrepresent the way the game works, and what Ryan and the devs have said? I mean, those posts were all made after I had identified this pattern enough to start labeling it a pattern, and they were all in the span of a single month.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
Hello, Bludd is right in that bringing up year-old posts as fact is slightly outa order.
When establishing a pattern, historical data is important. When told to back up a claim that someone has been consistent about something for a long time, one most provide evidence that it has indeed been so for a long time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Before this thread becomes worse, maybe it needs to be locked. It was an inadvisable thread to begin with.
For what it is worth, I'll disagree.
As long as it stays within bounds it should remain (Though if it does go out of those bounds, yes lock it)
The fact remains clearly people have problems. It is better to have those problems here in an isolated location rather than polluting the other threads (too much). If people start arguing personally in other threads, just link them here and have them continue their tangent where it won't affect other peoples debates.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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In the meta-discussion, I would prefer that these derailments get shunted here when they come up rather than simmering in the threads that ignite them. I think it's very unlikely that it will be any more productive, but at least it's out of the way of productive discussion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the meta-discussion, I would prefer that these derailments get shunted here when they come up rather than simmering in the threads that ignite them. I think it's very unlikely that it will be any more productive, but at least it's out of the way of productive discussion.
exactly!
Thanks for the vote Decius
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bottom line, the presentation of the game mechanics have changed so much since last July, that this argument beng rehashed out is ridiculous.
Yes there are still many details TBD and we will know nothing for sure until sometime during EE, and even then some things will be changed.
I can not represent or misrepresent how the game works, because I am not playing the game. Unless Nihimon has some super secret advance copy of the game, neither can he. This really is so pointless to argue about what anyone's intentions are, including Ryan's.
PFO will be what it is, and we won't know that until OE. Why OE and not late EE? Because OE will vastly outnumber the EE population and they will largely impact the culture that PFO will end up with.
Now we of the UNC have offered to make our best attempt to guide as many of the would-be bandits in the direction of conducting banditry and other nefarious deeds within the rules of the game. But rest assured, not all will follow our example and fewer will conduct themselves better than us.
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I think you mean "three combat rounds."Please for the love of god, don't let this thread fall into a 10 page rage fest between UNC and Nihimon & Co. It's part of the reason why I (and probably many others) are loath to post as much on the forums. So please no finger pointing or dredging up old history. To be clear from my reading of this thread Nihimon threw the first punch in this thread so don't take this as a rant against UNC.HE STARTED IT
Agreed - except the part about the last day or so. I'd hope that any flagged timer that the robbers might get from using SAD would expire a whole lot faster than that. If I recall correctly, the Criminal flag expires in 10 minutes.Kobolds have an average life span of three hours. Our concept of time is kinda wonky.
Nah, it gets balanced out by the kobolds at the back of the dungeon.
/sighI strongly suggest you re-read the thread closely,
For the record, I wouldn't have had this problem if you'd linked it instead of posts discussing it. ;P
And having reread, I still don't see too much "calling out" at first. More along the lines of, "Guys, don't bother, he said he hates PvP." Things only got more aggressive when the argument kicked off.
Yeah, I'm notorious for attacking anyone who supports anything you say...
You are? Huh. I didn't notice. Then again, I get attacked a lot. Other forumites keep mistaking me for a random encounter.
I'm withdrawing from this argument, because I don't feel arguments about people's moral compasses are beneficial to anything. I think most can agree that Bluddwolf's post wasn't helpful, and while I think "unhelpful" is the worst it should be called...
...I really think that just as people used to put up with my obnoxious behavior in the OTD and PbPs a few years ago, people should be able to put aside their dislikes here. This isn't the sort of argument we need to "get out of our system", this is a deeply personal argument that makes people very angry.
So, yeah. I say we do not argue about Bluddwolf anymore, and I seriously apologize for kicking it off again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I should probably make this clear:
This is not to personally attack Bludd or anyone. This is because people don't agree with UNC.
If you do bring your wolf problems here, I'm telling you to go shove it right now.
If you fail to shove it I will spend the rest of my out-of-game time before EE sending all sorts of semi-annoying private messages starting at the philosophies of Socrates, through to Agrippa, and on til modern times ending with wack-job theories from both atheists, scientologists, and creationists.
I do not, nor shall I ever, tolerate personal attacks. I've been a bit slack on this recently due to a lot of real life things I've been doing and this has been my "fun time" if you will. That has cleared up for now, so I am going to divert more control on this.
So please kindly keep your pants on, and your assumptions private.
As a "note":
Most of these arguments are started because we take each other out of context. I mostly do it as a joke (though there are cases to the contrary I assure you). In addition it seems that in particular Being and Bludd like to take comments of certain nature(s) and extend them to their fullest. Nihimon and Steelwing are also good examples, with myself and Kobold representing the worst of the "trolls", I'm sure.
The point being: learn to accept the differences. A lot of the issues being talked about are stupid to be talked about anyway, almost nobody will change their opinion on these subjects, or at least I don't think I will and it sure sounds like the UNC and TEO won't. In fact this entire thread existing is stupid (and I am the one who made it.)
So if you got a problem with the policies of the UNC take it here, don't have it cluttering up the other threads. I get that, and there are certain things that may come up.
If you plan on rehashing the same old road, save it for PMs or after EE.
I'm sure I've just said a lot of incorrect things but I don't care, it is how I, and others probably, feel. That is the spirit of this post.
/anyone who drives away the kobold makes me grumpy. I like him, he is my comedic relief here. jerks ;-;
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Goblin Squad Member
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Per that request, I'm bowing out. I cannot at this point differentiate between the unstated policies of the UNC and the apparent intention of the autocrat of the UNC.
"Unstated Policies"???
"The Autocrat of the UNC"???
What part of "We want to steal your stuff" has been left unstated?
Who is this Autocrat of the UNC? I'd like for our Council to meet him or her.
How could you make presumptions of what you do not know and, at the same time, not see what has been plainly presented?
Two Derps in one thread! Brilliance!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually this is exactly supposed to be a 10+ page long (civilized) rage fest between UNC and its "allies" and everyone else who has a problem with UNC.
I got tired of people getting into it on other threads, and being recommended making a thread for it that wasn't promoting UNC's policy thread. So I made this.
My mistake. TBH I'd rather this sort of finger pointing (from both sides) remains in a thread like this, than crowd other threads. Now I know the purpose of this thread I'll bow out of it.
@Being
I feel your suggestion of not automatically seeing flags or peoples names my be best put in a thread of it's own, as it's probably getting lost here. Personally I tend to agree with you. Though if someone has a criminal flag in a hex then I'd rather that be obvious and visible.
Another way of handling this would be to have a local bounties board, which has information of the top most wanted (repeat offenders) and perhaps those that have committed a recent crime. Characters would then to check the board and see a picture which would allow the criminal to be recognized. Once the criminal flag wears off the wanted poster is removed. You could also do something similar with bounties placed on a character, and assume it includes a picture of the target.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I guess I can't even leave without being called out. Congratulations, you've identified a way to manipulate me into engaging with you.
There is always one person in charge, no matter how the game is setup. One charismatic person will be in control... How he handles that control is going to vary. No matter how high you go, you will always end at one man.Per that request, I'm bowing out. I cannot at this point differentiate between the unstated policies of the UNC and the apparent intention of the autocrat of the UNC."Unstated Policies"???
"The Autocrat of the UNC"???
What part of "We want to steal your stuff" has been left unstated?
Who is this Autocrat of the UNC? I'd like for our Council to meet him or her.
How could you make presumptions of what you do not know and, at the same time, not see what has been plainly presented?
Two Derps in one thread! Brilliance!!
And your stated goal of "We want to steal your stuff" isn't problematic. Your almost unstated goal of "We will make it hard for players who have already precommitted to courses of action that make it hard for us" is irrational, but not unreasonable. But neither of these goals are furthered by misrepresenting the SAD as a way that anybody can circumvent the Reputation system. I'm not sure what goals and patterns of behavior are furthered by that, or I'd have called them out more specifically.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Brotherzael
What is the purpose of this thread? I am pretty sure that everyone here accepts that there will be bandits and bad guys. The only issues that most have with the UNC are in some of the things that they post. Much more in the past than recently. I feel like it will all sort itself through gameplay and GW's mechanics and oversight. UNC nor anyone else will get away with anything that GW doesn't want for long, so it doesn't matter if we have issues with their approaches to things.
All we can do is point out what we feel are assumptions and incorrect interpretations of Dev statements. This is done to keep all of us on close to the same page. It is also done (religiously sometimes) so that casual browsers do not get incorrect ideas from what they read of what we post.
Anything else is pretty much personal dislike between individuals. It can't be solved because it is based on opposing philosophies.
So, what is this thread really for?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bludd there was no call for that, calm it down please.
I guess you have failed to see what I was responding to. I guess I should have just called him a liar as he had done to me, that had gone without the same call to calm down.
But then maybe I'm over reacting, because it's plain as day, this thread is not encouraging an attack on me or my company.
You think my response was hostile, Xeen hasn't even shown up yet.
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A WHOLE THREAD TO BAG ON UNC?? QALLZ THE INSATIABLE DEMANDS MOAR PVP!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Who is this Autocrat of the UNC? I'd like for our Council to meet him or her.Ironic, considering how many times you've said that only one person can lead any given group.
That's not what I said. I was talking about having administrative rights to a company, settlement or website forum. That to my knowledge always comes down to one person, who starts the in-game organization or outside of a game, the credit card holder that pays for the website or team speak, etc...
The UNC being run in an autocratic way is quite simply a lie. Both the Goodfellow and Xeen can tell you, major decisions are run by them. There have also been ideas run by the officers as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Who is this Autocrat of the UNC? I'd like for our Council to meet him or her.Ironic, considering how many times you've said that only one person can lead any given group.
Statements of absolutes are very difficult to defend sometimes. Not to answer for Xeen or Bluddwolf here but what I got out of it, after further clarification (or backing down from absolute, YMMV), was that One Person pushes the button in the end.
I may have understood badly, but that was my final takeaway from the back and forth. That is a matter of hair splitting if the "One Person" pushes only buttons that the group has a consensus about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Who is this Autocrat of the UNC? I'd like for our Council to meet him or her.Ironic, considering how many times you've said that only one person can lead any given group.Statements of absolutes are very difficult to defend sometimes. Not to answer for Xeen or Bluddwolf here but what I got out of it, after further clarification (or backing down from absolute, YMMV), was that One Person pushes the button in the end.
I may have understood badly, but that was my final takeaway from the back and forth. That is a matter of hair splitting if the "One Person" pushes only buttons that the group has a consensus about.
One person does push the botton if that person is a forum administrator, or owns the TS server. In all of the MMOs I have played, one person holds the power as an administrator of the group, guild, settlement, alliance, etc.
If PFO is going to be different, it woukd be yet another thing that remains to be seen. We will have to wait until EE to find out.
Per that request, I'm bowing out. I cannot at this point differentiate between the unstated policies of the UNC and the apparent intention of the autocrat of the UNC.
Bludd there was no call for that, calm it down please.
I'm gonna come down on Bluddwolf's side again, because I'm a meddling fool. DeciusBrutus's departure was handled very passive-aggressively. He might want to take cues from Nihimon's minimalist approach.
Takes a few deep breaths, counts to ten, and walks away
This is how you pull out of a thread. You don't leave any comments, don't make any further remarks. If you're bowing out, it is time to stop talking. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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bringslite this is basically to take all the troubles revolving around UNC that invariably pop up in every thread...
and push them here.
and yes I was watching spongebob at the time.
:I
@bludd I didn't say it was hostile or not. I said to calm it down is all ^^
Honestly, I think Being knocked it...well, if not out of the park, pretty darn far. This thread was good, but it's becoming clear that it's all a matter of personal dislikes. For the same reason we would not post a thread specifically designed to discuss Bluddwolf's merits as a human being, we should not keep up a thread that seems to be focusing on that very issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said, if it gets any more to the point where this is Bludd vs X then this has failed it's purpose.
That said if everyone takes their Bludd issues here instead of other, actually mattering threads, then I guess I cannot complain... I would much rather it be in private, or better yet never happen, but I guess it is better contained than polluting other threads like it was.
Either way, my work is done here. Have fun people...
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are no valid "troubles" about the concept of the UNC. It is a playstyle. Bandits, raiders, gankers, mercs, (whatever). It is all valid if played within "the box" part of the sandbox. GW will put in mechanics and oversight to deal with those that play too far outside of what they want.
The only valid problems are differences of opinion about the info that we have, assumptions about how those will play out or be playable, and either purposeful or unwitting misstatements based on assumptions by individuals. Most of those are best dealt with right in the threads where they occur. I will grant that they could be handled better by some (especially myself), but the fact remains that there are not really any valid problems with the idea of bandits, per se.
All this thread does, then, is give another place for people to bring up old crap and argue about different ways of playing games, that can never be satisfied.
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By the way, good job, Being, on pretending to be Bringslite. You really fooled everyone. Everyone but me.
Honestly, I think Being knocked it...well, if not out of the park, pretty darn far.
Yeah, I noticed.
Being
I know it's you.
I totally didn't just get you guys mixed up because you both have "B_ing" in your name.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said, if it gets any more to the point where this is Bludd vs X then this has failed it's purpose.
That said if everyone takes their Bludd issues here instead of other, actually mattering threads, then I guess I cannot complain... I would much rather it be in private, or better yet never happen, but I guess it is better contained than polluting other threads like it was.
Either way, my work is done here. Have fun people...
When will you be putting up the threads for Andius, Nihimon, Decius, Drakhan, The Goodfellow, Being, Jiminy, Kobold, Qallz, and of course.... Yourself?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I tried not to post here but the subject is worth discussing...................................
too bad the thread became worthless. I say that with respect to every one here because you all have put in good points in a lot of things. Hopefully this subject can be discussed subjectively at some point. done with this thread though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said, if it gets any more to the point where this is Bludd vs X then this has failed it's purpose.
That said if everyone takes their Bludd issues here instead of other, actually mattering threads, then I guess I cannot complain... I would much rather it be in private, or better yet never happen, but I guess it is better contained than polluting other threads like it was.
Either way, my work is done here. Have fun people...
When will you be putting up the threads for Andius, Nihimon, Decius, Drakhan, The Goodfellow, Being, Jiminy, Kobold, Qallz, and of course.... Yourself?
Hey, what about me?! I want my own thread too...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bottom line, the presentation of the game mechanics have changed so much since last July...
And that's about as relevant to this discussion as was your insistence that the word "dealbreaker" warranted you jumping on everyone else's case for trying to tell Realmwalker "Hey, did you know <x>? You might enjoy this PvP game." None of the "game mechanic" questions I see right now are from July, that was all about your behavior as a person.
One person does push the botton if that person is a forum administrator, or owns the TS server.
Just like the IT Administrator is the "one person" in charge of any major company...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kobold Cleaver, you insisted I back up my claim that Bluddwolf and Xeen have a long and sordid history of attacking new posters who express concerns about PvP, and of attacking other forum posters for trying to give those new posters accurate information about the game, and of significantly misrepresenting game mechanics and dev statements.
You've expressed your belief that "I wish you luck in your search for a game that is to your liking" isn't really an attack. (Nobody else considered it an attack either, btw, even though in hindsight I think it was pretty obviously "Don't let the door hit you on the way out", or maybe even "Well, bye")
But you still haven't responded to my second and third claims. So, here, for the last time...
Thankfully, Ryan's definition of griefing does not match your's or those who favorited your post.
He had clearly stated previously that can flipping and decimal scamming is not griefing.
He had clearly stated previously that can flipping and decimal scamming is not griefing.I think those are both griefing tactics. They're horrible.
So, what kind of impression do you think new posters coming here to these forums to find out about PFO would have if Bluddwolf's lies-stated-as-fact were allowed to stand unchallenged?
Feel free to click the other links I've posted if you still have any qualms about my characterization of Bluddwolf.
Like I said, I'm not going to take part in this argument anymore, and I'd rather not prolong things by responding.
However, I will say that I did not respond to those points because I had nothing to say to them. You can interpret that however you like.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have hopes that this thread will soon get locked or completely removed. It has gone wrong and has little to do with Pathfinder Online. Posts with assumptions and misinformation can be pointed out where they occur. We can all do a better job of how we go about that in the future and this could be a lesson that we should try that from now on.
We have seen a difference in how people reply to posters that have concerns, but there is no acknowledgement for it. Little good is achieved by dredging the past up continually. What is the goal for doing that? Do we demand apologies? Do we demand acknowledgment that what they did was wrong? Do they need to be driven off? Well I see many (including myself) going overboard sometimes and very few ever acknowledge that they were wrong or writing that they are sorry.
Maybe the best thing would be to just go on challenging misinformation and perceived rudeness as it occurs, where it occurs. Every bit of misinformation that is posted is a chance to post and educate with the truth if it is done right. It might even be noticed and teach a few people that way. The moderators will remove the stuff that goes too far. It is their job and their prerogative, not ours.
There are many great egos here. You won't get what you want from the biggest of them.
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There are many great egos here.
But mine is the best, right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can flipping / baiting
This refers to the practice of (ab)using the Criminal Flagging System to cause a fight between yourself and an unsuspecting party in high-security space. See main article for more.
Can flipping is officially considered griefing only in Rookie Systems. Some people do it just for fun, without the actual intent to cause the feelings of harassment and frustration in the victim. It is, however, also a typical form of griefing in the classic sense.
I'm curious if there will be activities in PFO that are considered griefing, but only in the starter areas as there are in EVE?
However, as evidenced here, CCP and Ryan Dancey are not on the same page of the issue. I wouldn't expect that Ryan's declarative statement here on these forums would be considered a lie, nor should they be.
I too did not make the proper caveat in my description of can flipping. But, I was clear to say that if there were a similar activity in PFO, and GW declared that it would be defined as griefing, I would not do it.
I also said somewhere that both EVE and PFO will have a different set of rules and obviously a different set of definitions.
/fin
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe the best thing would be to just go on challenging misinformation and perceived rudeness as it occurs, where it occurs. Every bit of misinformation that is posted is a chance to post and educate with the truth if it is done right. It might even be noticed and teach a few people that way. The moderators will remove the stuff that goes too far. It is their job and their prerogative, not ours.
The internet is full of examples of bad behavior hiding behind anonymity and lack of consequences. That goes for forums as well as MMOs.
As a community, we should call it out when it occurs. We should be willing to call out our allies or guildmates as well as others for their missteps.
As posters, we might make an effort to be clear when we write about the way the devs have describes things working as opposed to the way they might work or the way we might like to see them work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have hopes that this thread will soon get locked or completely removed. It has gone wrong and has little to do with Pathfinder Online. Posts with assumptions and misinformation can be pointed out where they occur. We can all do a better job of how we go about that in the future and this could be a lesson that we should try that from now on.
There are many great egos here. You won't get what you want from the biggest of them.
This thread is like Rosemary's baby, it was born evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are many great egos here.But mine is the best, right?
ROTFLOL!
This is the best reply so far in this entire thread. I swore I'd stay away but I can't help myself. I'm curious how the never-ending battle goes.
It would be awesome to see how the first IG encounter of the UNC and Nihimon and his allies goes. I imagine it would be messy, but hopefully cleansing. Actually I'd pay to see a rumble royale arena type battle between these two parties, as they have a few issues to work out. I'd suggest that we record the event but the voice channel might be R18 and not suitable for all audiences.
Pity I won't be there in month one. By month two they'll be best bud's ;-P
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Goblin Squad Member
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This thread is like Rosemary's baby, it was born evil.I have hopes that this thread will soon get locked or completely removed. It has gone wrong and has little to do with Pathfinder Online. Posts with assumptions and misinformation can be pointed out where they occur. We can all do a better job of how we go about that in the future and this could be a lesson that we should try that from now on.
There are many great egos here. You won't get what you want from the biggest of them.
Omg I love this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So can someone please explain how the United Nations Council is a controversial Problem?
Only speaking for myself. It seems to me that at this early stage, some of the largest powers are loath to surrender any of their potential sovereignty. Too few smaller independent planned settlements have come forward or are not presenting much in this forum. Too little is known about things. Too many play philosophies are divergent. I will guess that some ideas are being suss'ed out behind closed doors.