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It is only effective until Fickle Winds starts to turn up at which time it becomes terrible.Yes, archery is THE most effective way to be a fighter. Why? Because it's the most feat-dependent fighting style, catering to fighters; It doesn't get a 1.5 bonus for Power Attack or Str like melee does, which caters to non-fighters; and it doesn't force you to move to attack an enemy, which lends itself to full attacks.
Unless you are a Zen Archer, in which case you trick shoot your arrows around the wall of wind.
Fickle Winds is not Wind Wall. Go read the spell. It's considerably more dangerous to enemy archers. Basically, you can shoot at your enemies, and they can't shoot at you.
That said, it's not core and so it's accordingly rare. Just pheer the well-equipped wizard procuring it to shut down your archer.
==Aelryinth
Does it say how high the cylinder is? Because if not, it's effectively out of range.
If we have a range for the top, we're talking about indirect fire, which is actually an official form of archery fire. You'd have an interesting range penalty, however...distance to top and then bottom of the cylinder.
==Aelryinth
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Because the cylinder effect functions as wind wall, which is wall of air two feet thick a 5 feet per level high. There is nothing in Fickle winds that modifies the area of wind wall, except changing it into a mobile cylinder surrounding each target. Unless you are indoor and there is a ceiling at or below the maximum wall height, then a Zen Archer can shoot above the effect and down into the eye.
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The o.p. had a creative idea on how to plug a glaring weakness with the Fighter that gave several bonuses to boot. What a rube he is. He clearly shouldn't waste his time on solutions, but instead:
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The o.p. had a creative idea on how to plug a glaring weakness with the Fighter that gave several bonuses to boot. What a rube he is. He clearly shouldn't waste his time on solutions, but instead:
i clearly stated how the fighter does not need to be fixed. i proved how at level 20 a 22+ will save is easily attainable with a 10 starting stat. i also proved how dwarves are hands down the best fighter race for non archery/skill point builds.
i also debunked the situations that are disadvantageous on a case by case basis showing how a fighter can, when built well, adapt to conditions of combat.
you post was clearly needed, EpicFail
Of course when Fighters dedicate two feats, a trait, choose a specific race,and have gold to spare to get a +5 magic item save booster AND reach level 20 they can have a Will save of whatever. Enemy casters will respect that of course and never target their will saves before our intrepid Fighter will get all those goodies, just like obtaining that won't get in the way of other, important things. I'll just ignore my experience and the vast experience of others and not try to fix the historical problem of the Fighter getting possessed. Thanks.
P.S. Word on the street is that Wizards have a poor Fort save, so it would be unfair for the Fighter to address the possession problem anyway. That would make the Fighters even more overpowered, esp. as they reach higher levels.
Spread effects won't bypass walls. And it's called a Force Sphere, not a dome, so it extends 360.
==Aelryinth
Emergency Force Sphere
School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
CASTINGCasting Time 1 immediate action
Components V
EFFECTRange 5 ft.
Effect 5-ft.-radius hemisphere of force centered on you
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw None; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
As wall of force, except you create a hemispherical of force with hardness 20 and a number of hit points equal to 10 per caster level. The bottom edge of the dome forms a relatively watertight space if you are standing on a reasonably flat surface. The dome shape means that falling debris (such as rocks from a collapsing ceiling) tend to tumble to the side and pile up around the base of the dome. If you make a DC 20 Craft (stonemasonry), Knowledge (engineering), or Profession (architect or engineer) check, the debris is stable enough that it retains its dome-like configuration when the spell ends, otherwise it collapses.
ANd so they call a dome a sphere (rolls eyes). Forgive me for relying on the accuracy of the spell's name.
The point still stands. It's a solid barrier and interrupts line of effect. A Spread is not going to get through it anymore then it will get through a stone wall...which is much softer, actually.
==Aelryinth
If you are on the ground then no. But what scrodinger wizard is on the ground? every one of them is flying, always. and the the spread can ge them.
Other melee classes? Damage does not change when you shift weapon styles. Barbs can get a bow that gives them full Str bonus; rangers still get FE; Paladins can still smite.==Aelryinth
Seriously barbarians? So they are doing +15/+10/+5 1d8+10 at level 11 and that is not a hit for their damage?
Fix for fighters.
1) Give them more skill points.
2) Any weapon specific feat works for the entire weapon group.
3) Replace bravery with an actual class feature and not a bad joke. That lcass feature should be vanilla (as fighter are) so the fighter should choose what kind of effect he is more stronger against.
4) Armor mastery now stacks with adamantine
5) armor training 3 and 4 does something more than reducing ACP.
There's also one more question you should ask yourself; if the super-powerful, "end-gamey" playstyles are "horribly flawed" and the game being supposedly "not built around it" (even though there are rules for such gameplay), what becomes the absolute perfectly reasonable, flawless playstyle that one must judge the value from? There is no one right answer to this question, because it varies from gameplay to gameplay, and expecting a "One Size Fits All" answer from a game that comes as varied and different as this one is only wishful thinking.
There is a right answer to that question. Go pick up any AP, you'll note very few of them advanced to the highest levels of the game. You'll should also note the intended 15 point stat buy and the encounters designed within each. That is the base line for the game. That is the basis on which any design element should be judged. It could also be argued that it could be judged from PFS play. The entirety of Pathfinder is built 100% by the designers around what you find in the APs and PFS play. ANY other playstyle (yours, mine, anyones) that deviates from that is not a basis on which to make value judgements of class design or any other element.
Everything has its flaws; even the precious PFS (which has been badly mouthed at thanks to PFS being the #1 reason Crane Style became useless, another point going towards "Wizards automatically win the game" side), or Adventure Paths that Paizo publishes has issues that stems from its design.
I'll also like to point out, that if the PFS or APs assume 20 and 15 Point Buys, respectively, why are there options for players to have 10 or 25 Point Buys to start (assuming GM approves), if doing so is a "horribly flawed" concept? The game wasn't built around having 10 Point Buy or 25 Point Buy characters. There's even rules for not using Point Buys! Are those games horribly flawed and Pathfinder wasn't built to accomodate such things?
Simply because it's different, and not "baseline," yet allowable according to what's written, is no reason to discredit a table's capabilities, which is exactly what you're doing, and most people of which would most certainly find offensive.
It is as I've said; there is no perfectly reasonable or flawless playstyle. Each system has its issues; why do you think there are 4 different editions of D&D, with the rules changed drastically for each edition? Not to mention the increased splatbooks of both D&D and now currently Pathfinder, which, as more content is added, more loopholes and flaws are being created.
It's basic physics. The only difference is that this issue has been spawned since the creation of the game from Mr. Gygax, and has not been addressed, or even (hardly) changed from edition to edition, or even from game to game if we want to get real technical.
Here's a Fighter fix: End the class at level 6 and give them various gish-type prestige classes to take afterward.
Also, low point buys hurt martials more than casters because they're reliant on more stats.
Fix for fighters.
1) Give them more skill points.
2) Any weapon specific feat works for the entire weapon group.
3) Replace bravery with an actual class feature and not a bad joke. That lcass feature should be vanilla (as fighter are) so the fighter should choose what kind of effect he is more stronger against.
4) Armor mastery now stacks with adamantine
5) armor training 3 and 4 does something more than reducing ACP.Changes to the fighter?
Strong Will Save progression. Simples.
Skill points? Not hugely significant, just look at what skills do for the rogue compared to spells.
That aside I'm pretty much in agreement.
Strong will save is simple but is not as vanilla as I personally would like.
Skill point is not for power but for to have a more rounded character.
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Strong will save is simple but is not as vanilla as I personally would like.
Skill point is not for power but for to have a more rounded character.
both lore warden and tactician give aditional skill points, they also have feats that gain you aditional skill points, and traits can give you class skills your fighter is lacking for your concept.
the fighter is fine.
Strong will save is simple but is not as vanilla as I personally would like.
Skill point is not for power but for to have a more rounded character.
both lore warden and tactician give aditional skill points, they also have feats that gain you aditional skill points, and traits can give you class skills your fighter is lacking for your concept.
the fighter is fine.
Skills are a problem, but by far not the most glaring.
Your head is firmly in the sand.
Strong will save is simple but is not as vanilla as I personally would like.
Skill point is not for power but for to have a more rounded character.
both lore warden and tactician give aditional skill points, they also have feats that gain you aditional skill points, and traits can give you class skills your fighter is lacking for your concept.
the fighter is fine.
It is a matter of opinion, but No it does not. The lore warden and tactician replace other class features.
Why woudl 4 +int skil per level as a base and 6+int skill per level be bad?
Skills are a problem, but by far not the most glaring.
Your head is firmly in the sand.
my head is in the sand, because i showed someone who wants a fighter to have more skills... an archtype that has more skills?
your head is somewhere but it ain't the sand lol
Don't be obtuse. You said the fighter is fine, and I'm saying you're in denial if you really think that.
Skills are a problem, but by far not the most glaring.
Your head is firmly in the sand.
my head is in the sand, because i showed someone who wants a fighter to have more skills... an archtype that has more skills?
your head is somewhere but it ain't the sand lol
So, the corer fighter is not fine then?
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I'll actually be releasing a Fighter arcehtype (hopefully next week) as part of the Magic of Incarna project for Dreamscarred Press. It's intended to plug a lot of the Fighter's gaps without changing a lot of his overall chassis.
For anyone not familiar with the project, Incarna characters gain a pool of Essence that they can invest into various class abilities and even special Incarna feats. The amount they can invest scales by level, and some of the feats include versions of classics made to scale better (for example, Will of the Daeva grants a +1 bonus to Will saves, +1 per point of Essence invested. For most characters this scales up to a plus +5, but some can raise it a bit higher).
The Fighter archetype gains all of the normal features (Weapon Training, Armor Training, Bravery), but can also choose the Incarna feats for his bonus feats, and instead of the features scaling up directly by level, he gains a pool of Essence he can invest into the class features, moving his Essence around as a swift action each round to either shore up his attacks, his defenses, or his mobility as needed. Since he gets the Essence pool, he can also dip into some of the of other mechanical options introduced in the materials, like taking a Veil to give himself access to a special movement mode or bonuses to one or two particular skills that can be raised by investing Essence.
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Don't be obtuse. You said the fighter is fine, and I'm saying you're in denial if you really think that.
i do.
the only thing i want to see would be better anti caster fighter only feat choices. things that give the fighter an advantage against magic in later levels. fighter saves are fine, you might not be able to max focus your dps in order to achieve high enough saves, but you can achieve them non the less. a +22 ,and a reroll, on a 10 starting stat is more then enough.
to the point of the OP you can achieve this without needing to dip into anything.
Simply because it's different, and not "baseline," yet allowable according to what's written, is no reason to discredit a table's capabilities, which is exactly what you're doing, and most people of which would most certainly find offensive.
You seem to have misunderstood. That's not at all what I am doing. I don't care what anyone's table capabilities are. But if someone states "the fighter is broken", and they aren't basing the argument on the baseline game, the argument has no weight. Play however you want, use whatever portion of the rules you want, invalidate the fighter as often as you want with your casters or the encounters you create as a DM.
I will however ignore any argument that claims the fighter is going to be hit with a will save EVERY OTHER FIGHT. I will ignore any argument that claims at high levels, the Fighter is just a sock puppet for every caster that comes along. These things don't happen in the normal game. As I said, if anyone is playing in a game where the Fighter is *routinely* hit with a will-save effect, you're not playing in a normal game and you should NEVER, EVER play a Fighter in such a game. In no way, at no time, does this equate to the Fighter being poorly designed *because he has a bad will save*. It's just not the case, no matter how many times someone says so, or how many examples of outlier gameplay someone offers.
But hey, if we want to continue the massive arms race that is occuring in the rules, by all means, beef up the Fighter. (But only after dealing with the Rogue first who is in FAR worse shape). Let's make sure every class has a method for covering all of their weaknesses whenever they need to. They won't actually be weaknesses then, and there won't be any risk, danger, or fear in the game at that point. (Obviously there isn't any for the full casters already). Once that is done we can start arguing over how bad it is to then have a poor Reflex save and how unfair it is that Rogues, Barbarians, Paladins and Rangers don't suffer from that, and how they get all the cool toys on top of it. I know, lets replace the Fighter class' armor ability with one that allows a Ref save bonus based on the type of armor worn.
There shouldn't be trade offs, you should always have the tools you need to handle whatever the game throws at you, just like all these perfectly prepared, walking scroll library, meta-magic rod equipped, omniscient spell casters that know exactly what to memorize, exactly what they will face, and exactly what the opponent will be throwing at them all day every day. Because every part of the game needs to be measured against *that* apparently.
*and now for a commercial break*
When you play a Fighter you get Charmed or Dominated
When you get Charmed or Dominated, you attack your own party
When you attack your own party you wind up bleeding out in a ditch
Don't wind up bleeding out in a ditch, play a caster and win
You seem to have misunderstood. That's not at all what I am doing. I don't care what anyone's table capabilities are. But if someone states "the fighter is broken", and they aren't basing the argument on the baseline game, the argument has no weight. Play however you want, use whatever portion of the rules you want, invalidate the fighter as often as you want with your casters or the encounters you create as a DM.
Ok, then, exactly what arbitrary measure we will use to designate what games are baselines?
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Don't be obtuse. You said the fighter is fine, and I'm saying you're in denial if you really think that.i do.
the only thing i want to see would be better anti caster fighter only feat choices. things that give the fighter an advantage against magic in later levels. fighter saves are fine, you might not be able to max focus your dps in order to achieve high enough saves, but you can achieve them non the less. a +22 ,and a reroll, on a 10 starting stat is more then enough.
to the point of the OP you can achieve this without needing to dip into anything.
The Fighter does not gain a +22 Will save.
The fighter gains a +6 from class features. That's it. Everything else you stated is non-fighter and requires an investment of general non-combat (and underpowered)feats, traits, race, and magic items, none of which have anything to do with being a Fighter.
As for Barbs doing d8+11 with the Bow, that's the same they'd be doing with any other one-handed weapon, so how are they suffering?
What you're trying to say is a 'fighters are fine' is a 'mandatory fighter tax', covering every single aspect other then being a fighter. Including that all fighters must now be dwarves.
It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
==Aelryinth
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As for Barbs doing d8+11 with the Bow, that's the same they'd be doing with any other one-handed weapon, so how are they suffering?
You are forgetting the lack of +4 to +6 (+8?) points in attack.
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it makes perfect sense actually, and that +22 is with a non dwarf, its +26 as a dwarf.
basically: if you want build a house and you choose not to use a hammer but a wrench to hammer nails... you're an idiot. you use the tool or tools that are best for you need to do. and the fighter has a massive bag of tools (called feats and archetypes).
3.0 is based on the acquisition of magic items and wealth. so why would you exclude magic items from your characters build?!?! sounds mor to me like you hate 3.0 and it has nothing to do with the fighter class its self.
all classes use magic to make up for things their class lacks, in this case fighters use magic items and feats. iron will and improved iron will are excellent choices for fighter, they are not sub-par as you stated. just because you don't like the idea of "fix the weaknesses" of a class with magic and feats doesn't mean those options are not available.
your arguments are irrational and nonsensical.
it makes perfect sense actually, and that +22 is with a non dwarf, its +26 as a dwarf.
basically: if you want build a house and you choose not to use a hammer but a wrench to hammer nails... you're an idiot. you use the tool or tools that are best for you need to do. and the fighter has a massive bag of tools (called feats and archetypes).
3.0 is based on the acquisition of magic items and wealth. so why would you exclude magic items from your characters build?!?! sounds mor to me like you hate 3.0 and it has nothing to do with the fighter class its self.
all classes use magic to make up for things their class lacks, in this case fighters use magic items and feats. iron will and improved iron will are excellent choices for fighter, they are not sub-par as you stated. just because you don't like the idea of "fix the weaknesses" of a class with magic and feats doesn't mean those options are not available.
your arguments are irrational and nonsensical.
Having to be a single race for a class to even be viable is a bunch of garbage and designing of urinary levels.
And guess what? Every Class has Feats and Archetypes. Nice try on the analogy, but how about you use something that the Fighter has that the other classes can't replicate. Oh wait...
You don't seem to understand his argument; there are a lot of 3.X items that greatly enhance a Martial's offensive capabilities, even more-so than what's been published so far in Pathfinder. There are Power Attack Bracers that are even better than any pair of bracers that's been published in Pathfinder so far. And guess what? The Fighter, who has to spend over half of the slots those items encompass, to help (that's right, it's not a guarantee) make sure he doesn't become a drooling bag of pus, becomes an overall weaker character, and when you throw in the 'cookie cutter' gameplay of 3.X, which has changed very little in Pathfinder, it ruins the entire class as a result.
And yet having to play a class, which has to take these same items and these same feats all the time in order for it to even be viable (and that's stretching it) is where the problem really lies.
@ Darkbridger: Your argument about Reflex Saves being the next go-to is highly incorrect, assuming you even fix the issue regarding the Fighter's Will Saves. What Reflex Save spells are going to instantly take you out of the fight nigh-permanently, or turn you against your own comrades? None of them. Because Reflex Save spells generally only deal with damage, and slight debuffs, such as Grease, etc. Fighters don't have to worry about this as much when they take Dexterity, a secondary-usefulness statistic, and add it to that saving throw.
Not to mention, almost all classes who are good at Reflex Saves also get Evasion (and Improved Evasion), trivializing Reflex Save spells even more-so.
Though by all means, I definitely agree with the Rogue needing a fix. I'm considering doing entire re-writes for the original class features anyway, for both Fighters and Rogues so as to keep them in line with the strength of the other classes.
I hate to say it, but by the end-game, that's what you'll end up fighting. The APs and PFS don't exactly cover those scenarios, and it's for that same exact reason; because the casters will dominate that level of gameplay and it's highly unfair.
this is where i stopped reading because you missed my post by a thousand light years. reading comprehension is a wonderful thing they teach at school.
Having to be a single race for a class to even be viable is a bunch of garbage and designing of urinary levels
You can sit there and polish a turd, but it's still a turd.
Also, "+22 Will Saves" by level 20 becomes a joke when most classes can have Saves in the low-mid 30's, or have immunities. No specific race is going to fix that.
Spread effects won't bypass walls. And it's called a Force Sphere, not a dome, so it extends 360.
==Aelryinth
Emergency Force Sphere
School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
CASTINGCasting Time 1 immediate action
Components V
EFFECTRange 5 ft.
Effect 5-ft.-radius hemisphere of force centered on you
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw None; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
As wall of force, except you create a hemispherical of force with hardness 20 and a number of hit points equal to 10 per caster level. The bottom edge of the dome forms a relatively watertight space if you are standing on a reasonably flat surface. The dome shape means that falling debris (such as rocks from a collapsing ceiling) tend to tumble to the side and pile up around the base of the dome. If you make a DC 20 Craft (stonemasonry), Knowledge (engineering), or Profession (architect or engineer) check, the debris is stable enough that it retains its dome-like configuration when the spell ends, otherwise it collapses.
ANd so they call a dome a sphere (rolls eyes). Forgive me for relying on the accuracy of the spell's name.
The point still stands. It's a solid barrier and interrupts line of effect. A Spread is not going to get through it anymore then it will get through a stone wall...which is much softer, actually.
==Aelryinth
Blind bats the lot of you!
it makes perfect sense actually, and that +22 is with a non dwarf, its +26 as a dwarf.
basically: if you want build a house and you choose not to use a hammer but a wrench to hammer nails... you're an idiot. you use the tool or tools that are best for you need to do. and the fighter has a massive bag of tools (called feats and archetypes).
3.0 is based on the acquisition of magic items and wealth. so why would you exclude magic items from your characters build?!?! sounds mor to me like you hate 3.0 and it has nothing to do with the fighter class its self.
all classes use magic to make up for things their class lacks, in this case fighters use magic items and feats. iron will and improved iron will are excellent choices for fighter, they are not sub-par as you stated. just because you don't like the idea of "fix the weaknesses" of a class with magic and feats doesn't mean those options are not available.
your arguments are irrational and nonsensical.
That +22 again has nothing to do with being a fighter. It has everything to do with being anything, especially NOT being a fighter.
If it was a barbarian? The Will save would be, what, +31? 37 raging? Paladin? +34 all the time? Even a Ranger, since they'll have a higher Wisdom to cast spells, will be at +2 higher, while also not having to be a dwarf, take a trait, and take two subpar feats.
And why is that? Because Pals and barbs have class features that directly impact will saves, and Rangers indirectly.
Fighters have nothing. So, SideKick, your argument isn't a fighter argument. It's an 'everybody including a Fighter who only build their characters a certain way' argument.
And what you basically did there is state that anyone who didn't build (I.e. is forced to ) their character the same way you did sucks. Glad to know everyone has to play the same cookie cutter fighter.
==Aelryinth
As for Barbs doing d8+11 with the Bow, that's the same they'd be doing with any other one-handed weapon, so how are they suffering?You are forgetting the lack of +4 to +6 (+8?) points in attack.
The difference in attack is the difference between dex and Strength.
Which is exactly the same spread of any other melee character using a bow. He gives up nothing.
Granted, he doesn't get a rage bonus 'To-Hit'. But if he DOES want to get his str bonus, he can always switch to javelins or other thrown weapons, and he gets it all back.
==Aelryinth
Spread effects won't bypass walls. And it's called a Force Sphere, not a dome, so it extends 360.
==Aelryinth
Emergency Force Sphere
School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
CASTINGCasting Time 1 immediate action
Components V
EFFECTRange 5 ft.
Effect 5-ft.-radius hemisphere of force centered on you
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw None; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
As wall of force, except you create a hemispherical of force with hardness 20 and a number of hit points equal to 10 per caster level. The bottom edge of the dome forms a relatively watertight space if you are standing on a reasonably flat surface. The dome shape means that falling debris (such as rocks from a collapsing ceiling) tend to tumble to the side and pile up around the base of the dome. If you make a DC 20 Craft (stonemasonry), Knowledge (engineering), or Profession (architect or engineer) check, the debris is stable enough that it retains its dome-like configuration when the spell ends, otherwise it collapses.
ANd so they call a dome a sphere (rolls eyes). Forgive me for relying on the accuracy of the spell's name.
The point still stands. It's a solid barrier and interrupts line of effect. A Spread is not going to get through it anymore then it will get through a stone wall...which is much softer, actually.
==Aelryinth
Blind bats the lot of you!
A hemisphere is a dome, Rav.
==Aelryinth
As for Barbs doing d8+11 with the Bow, that's the same they'd be doing with any other one-handed weapon, so how are they suffering?You are forgetting the lack of +4 to +6 (+8?) points in attack.The difference in attack is the difference between dex and Strength.
Which is exactly the same spread of any other melee character using a bow. He gives up nothing.
Granted, he doesn't get a rage bonus 'To-Hit'. But if he DOES want to get his str bonus, he can always switch to javelins or other thrown weapons, and he gets it all back.
==Aelryinth
Well, at level 11 the fighter have a +3 to hit due to weapon training and gloves of dueling. And a +3 to damage equivalent to rage. And the fighter acutally have the time to fight a long fight.
Not to mention that deadly aim is just one feat away. And no, the barbarian can not have deadly aim because in paizo forum barbarians only have power attack and improved critical as a true feats and hte rest are exgtra rage powers.
Not sure how the barbarian does not do it worse than the fighter.
As for Barbs doing d8+11 with the Bow, that's the same they'd be doing with any other one-handed weapon, so how are they suffering?You are forgetting the lack of +4 to +6 (+8?) points in attack.The difference in attack is the difference between dex and Strength.
Which is exactly the same spread of any other melee character using a bow. He gives up nothing.
Granted, he doesn't get a rage bonus 'To-Hit'. But if he DOES want to get his str bonus, he can always switch to javelins or other thrown weapons, and he gets it all back.
==Aelryinth
Well, at level 11 the fighter have a +3 to hit due to weapon training and gloves of dueling. And a +3 to damage equivalent to rage. And the fighter acutally have the time to fight a long fight.
Not to mention that deadly aim is just one feat away. And no, the barbarian can not have deadly aim because in paizo forum barbarians only have power attack and improved critical as a true feats and hte rest are exgtra rage powers.
Not sure how the barbarian does not do it worse than the fighter.
Did you just bring magic items into a class discussion again?
Fine, then, the barb has a furious courageous bow or something to equal and surpass the gloves of dueling. We are now back to square 1.
Not that we were arguing damage. We were arguing defenses and adaptability. Barbs and fighters are pretty equal on damage. On defenses and versatility, barbs blow them away.
==Aelryinth
Spread effects won't bypass walls. And it's called a Force Sphere, not a dome, so it extends 360.
==Aelryinth
Emergency Force Sphere
School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
CASTINGCasting Time 1 immediate action
Components V
EFFECTRange 5 ft.
Effect 5-ft.-radius hemisphere of force centered on you
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw None; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
As wall of force, except you create a hemispherical of force with hardness 20 and a number of hit points equal to 10 per caster level. The bottom edge of the dome forms a relatively watertight space if you are standing on a reasonably flat surface. The dome shape means that falling debris (such as rocks from a collapsing ceiling) tend to tumble to the side and pile up around the base of the dome. If you make a DC 20 Craft (stonemasonry), Knowledge (engineering), or Profession (architect or engineer) check, the debris is stable enough that it retains its dome-like configuration when the spell ends, otherwise it collapses.
ANd so they call a dome a sphere (rolls eyes). Forgive me for relying on the accuracy of the spell's name.
The point still stands. It's a solid barrier and interrupts line of effect. A Spread is not going to get through it anymore then it will get through a stone wall...which is much softer, actually.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, you have been mistakne three times in this thread by the sole reason of not bothering reading the book. you did not checked the armor training/armor mastery thing, you did not checked the force sphere/dome thing, and you are not cheking that spread effects do not need line of effect, they can avoid obstacles
Spread: "...The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see...."
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Did you just bring magic items into a class discussion again?
Why this policy do not apply to mithral celestial full plates? is the armor a class feature of barbarian, apaldins and rangers?
EDIT: and you are already giving the barbarian the magic bow for the str to dmaage.
Aelryinth, you have been mistakne three times in this thread by the sole reason of not bothering reading the book. you did not checked the armor training/armor mastery thing, you did not checked the force sphere/dome thing, and you are not cheking that spread effects do not need line of effect, they can avoid obstacles...Spread effects won't bypass walls. And it's called a Force Sphere, not a dome, so it extends 360.
==Aelryinth
Emergency Force Sphere
School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
CASTINGCasting Time 1 immediate action
Components V
EFFECTRange 5 ft.
Effect 5-ft.-radius hemisphere of force centered on you
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw None; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
As wall of force, except you create a hemispherical of force with hardness 20 and a number of hit points equal to 10 per caster level. The bottom edge of the dome forms a relatively watertight space if you are standing on a reasonably flat surface. The dome shape means that falling debris (such as rocks from a collapsing ceiling) tend to tumble to the side and pile up around the base of the dome. If you make a DC 20 Craft (stonemasonry), Knowledge (engineering), or Profession (architect or engineer) check, the debris is stable enough that it retains its dome-like configuration when the spell ends, otherwise it collapses.
ANd so they call a dome a sphere (rolls eyes). Forgive me for relying on the accuracy of the spell's name.
The point still stands. It's a solid barrier and interrupts line of effect. A Spread is not going to get through it anymore then it will get through a stone wall...which is much softer, actually.
==Aelryinth
Blind bats the lot of you!
A hemisphere is a dome, Rav.
==Aelryinth
It creates a hemispherical wall of force around you, sealing you off from the outside.
A spread effect can indeed spread around corners.
A dome has no corners.
It can't materialize on the other side of a wall.
The Dome is a wall.
The text is posted right there. It creates a sealed dome with you inside. You care to explain how you're going to spread right through something that has no openings in it, nor corners to go around? Because I'm listening, and want to hear this fascinating explanation.
I wasn't wrong on the mechanics of the armor training/mastery thing, I was wrong on the titles. Yay, I called it the wrong name. My argument was totally correct. And I'm still sure they used to be separate abilities at some point...meh.
I was wrong on the name/AoE of the spell effect. Guess what? I am still perfectly correct on the mechanics.
I am absolutely correct on what a spread cannot do vs a sealed dome. I think you need to practice some visualization exercises and get back to me. When you find those corners and ability to spread through solid walls and floors that have no openings, get back to me.
==Aelryinth
It creates a hemispherical wall of force around you, sealing you off from the outside.
A spread effect can indeed spread around corners.
A dome has no corners.
It can't materialize on the other side of a wall.
The Dome is a wall.The text is posted right there. It creates a sealed dome with you inside. You care to explain how you're going to spread right through something that has no openings in it, nor corners to go around? Because I'm listening, and want to hear this fascinating explanation.
I wasn't wrong on the mechanics of the armor training/mastery thing, I was wrong on the titles. Yay, I called it the wrong name. My argument was totally correct. And I'm still sure they used to be separate abilities at some point...meh.
I was wrong on the name/AoE of the spell effect. Guess what? I am still perfectly correct on the mechanics.
I am absolutely correct on what a spread cannot do vs a sealed dome. I think you need to practice some visualization exercises and get back to me. When you find those corners and ability to spread through solid walls and floors that have no openings, get back to me.
The dome is not sealed if hte wizard is flying, there is no ground below his feet.
What high level scrodinger wizard is not flying? oh right, the ones that already know a whail of banshee /whatever another spread effect was in their near future, like every good scrodinger wizard, my bad.
It creates a hemispherical wall of force around you, sealing you off from the outside.
A spread effect can indeed spread around corners.
A dome has no corners.
It can't materialize on the other side of a wall.
The Dome is a wall.The text is posted right there. It creates a sealed dome with you inside. You care to explain how you're going to spread right through something that has no openings in it, nor corners to go around? Because I'm listening, and want to hear this fascinating explanation.
I wasn't wrong on the mechanics of the armor training/mastery thing, I was wrong on the titles. Yay, I called it the wrong name. My argument was totally correct. And I'm still sure they used to be separate abilities at some point...meh.
I was wrong on the name/AoE of the spell effect. Guess what? I am still perfectly correct on the mechanics.
I am absolutely correct on what a spread cannot do vs a sealed dome. I think you need to practice some visualization exercises and get back to me. When you find those corners and ability to spread through solid walls and floors that have no openings, get back to me.
The dome is not sealed if hte wizard is flying, there is no ground below his feet.
What high level scrodinger wizard is not flying? oh right, the ones that already know a whail of banshee /whatever another spread effect was in their near future, like every good scrodinger wizard, my bad.
No ground below it, huh? So what? Do Spread effects go vertical as well as horizontal in their travel? Doubtful. In addition, the God Wizard will probably have it either cast twice, becoming a full sphere (and therefore practically impenetrable), or use some other catch-all to have that base covered. So where exactly is the problem of the spell?
Even so, there are better spells to choose from than that which accomplishes the same purposes, so talking about it when we're talking about the God Wizard, AKA Batman, does nothing.
What "Schrodinger's Wizard" isn't using a Copy spell? Or a Simulacrum? Or a Wish? What about Contingency? Globe of Invulnerability? There are so many spells the God Wizard can cast (or even UMD) to get him out of whatever situation comes his way if he apparently can't handle it (which, suffice to say he can).
The only limit of the God Wizard is the player, and when you have a seasoned player who knows what to expect at every turn, he's not going to die, and he's going to walk through whatever encounters you set up for him.
Fighters are good at fighting, and resisting all forms of attacks - that's why they are martial combatants. Except they aren't good at resisting attacks - that's a bug, not a feature.
The feature is that Fighters use absolutely no magic. Except that's a bug, too, because Fighters don't get anything to make up for it.
==Aelryinth
Fighters are good at resisting all forms of attacks? Since when? Maybe we have a very different idea of what a fighter is.
Fighters absolutely get something for not using magic--they get to be good at fighting. Which is kind of the point of being a fighter rather than, say, a wizard.
"I can fight"
"I can rewrite reality"
Yeah, sure, that really seems like a fair trade to me.
A fighter's job is to fight, not rewrite reality. Who said anything about fair trades? If you want to rewrite reality, play a wizard. Better yet, GM. : )
Fighters are good at fighting, and resisting all forms of attacks - that's why they are martial combatants. Except they aren't good at resisting attacks - that's a bug, not a feature.
The feature is that Fighters use absolutely no magic. Except that's a bug, too, because Fighters don't get anything to make up for it.
==Aelryinth
Fighters are good at resisting all forms of attacks? Since when? Maybe we have a very different idea of what a fighter is.
Fighters absolutely get something for not using magic--they get to be good at fighting. Which is kind of the point of being a fighter rather than, say, a wizard.
You're correct on the first point; Fighters have never been good at resisting attacks, so since never have they been able to do that. Wizards always could though...
So for losing magic completely, they get worse features than classes who have similar, superior features, can still cast spells, have just as much if not more survivability than them, and all of the other goodies under the sun? Why have a Fighter class then?
It's the Rogue and the Ninja all over again; no reason to play a Rogue when a Ninja takes everything from the Rogue and then some. Paraphrasing that, no reason to play a Fighter when a Paladin/Barbarian/Ranger/Inquisitor/Cleric/Alchemist/Monk takes everything from the Fighter and then some.
**EDIT**
When you pull that kind of crap designing things, there are only a few options left to fix the problem you create:
1. Remove the problem children. This is a very easy fix for the Rogue, since the Ninja is its superior in every way. Everyone else would still be superior too, so that's not it. This solution also doesn't work so much for the Fighter, since nerf-batting the Paladin/Barbarian/Ranger/Inquisitor/Cleric/Alchemist/Monk/Whatever takes so much more time and game material.
2. Rewrite the class. A much better idea that doesn't mess with nearly as much game material, takes a lot less time, plus allows a player to get creative while at the same time put the problem in a realistic perspective along with the other classes. I've already gotten a fairly solid Fighter rebuild done; I would work on the Rogue next, if I get really irked to do it.
3. Remove the problem adult. That's right, it's a lot easier to simply ban the Rogue or Fighter from the game, because all it requires is ripping the relevant pages out from your book, and crossing out/removing other relevant material. What's so hard about it? And the best part; the game becomes so much more balanced and entertaining, and there won't be hardly any "dead weight" players in the game! Win win!
There are probably other ones that may fit the bill, but I'm lazy to write those up.