For fun, I googled over to an older article on an African anarchist page about EU imperialism in Greece.
I don't really think the USSR was a very good example of communism, at all.USSR actually was socialist country,but there never was a communism.
Also,even as socialist country for the last half of it's existence it was not...very good.
Except for scientists and their families^^
Socialist, sure. But the USSR failed as a communist entity - there was never a dictatorship of the proletariat, for example. It's brought up as a failed communist experiment but in reality it's communist pretentions never got beyond a revolutionary seizure of power.
there was never a dictatorship of the proletariat, for example.
Except it was.Proletariat up to the rise of Nomenclatura was literally
ONLY REMAINING CLASS!Brezhnev,for gods's sake,majored in agriculture,he was not some kind of hereditary politician.
communist pretensions
Define your terms.
The same is true of every other communist country isn't it? Or are there actual examples you could point to where communist pretensions got beyond the revolutionary seizure of power?Socialist, sure. But the USSR failed as a communist entity - there was never a dictatorship of the proletariat, for example. It's brought up as a failed communist experiment but in reality it's communist pretentions never got beyond a revolutionary seizure of power.
I don't really think the USSR was a very good example of communism, at all.USSR actually was socialist country,but there never was a communism.
Also,even as socialist country for the last half of it's existence it was not...very good.
Except for scientists and their families^^
Every communist experiment I've seen has turned out to be a socialistic enterprise with communist pretensions. Real communism is going to require a fundamental shift in how people view property, their relations to others, and themselves.
It's like trying to find a free market, anywhere, in history. It's never yet existed, so it's virtues cannot be adequately quantified.
communist pretensionsDefine your terms.
Jeff was using my term, Vlad. I used it because the USSR - which championed itself as the torchbearer for international communism - did not reflect what I believe communism is, nor was it an example of the benefits I believe it would bring to humanity.
nor was it an example of the benefits I believe it would bring to humanity.
It was pretty good as far as a socialist country go.But when they declined the idea of world revolution...it's basically lost the right to hold the torch.Either you conquer capitalism or it finishes you.Sooner or later.
Mao thought the same.And he was a pretty smart guy.
I'm certainly willing to agree that the USSR didn't practice "capitalist imperialism". I'm just not convinced that "communist imperialism" is really that much different for those being taken over by it. If we make an exception for the USSR not really being communist, I suppose we can make one for China too (imperialist takeover of Tibet and attempts at influence elsewhere.) In fact it seems that, kind of like non-communist nations powerful communist ones tend to try to extend that power and influence in basically the same ways. Weaker nations, both communist and otherwise aren't as imperialist, but that's due to lack of ability as much as anything.
I'd imagine that in some ways you are right. Sense of national humiliation, frustration at lack of democracy, etc., etc., I'd imagine are, indeed, pretty similar.
The maintenance of a higher standard of living, for example, among the Polish working class in the seventies and eighties--if that is actually true--compared with impoverishment lived in by, say Latin American peasants, during the same time period points to the differences.
Near as I can tell, the basic pattern goes back well before capitalism, though the term came along later. "Imperial" Rome, anyone?
Sure. There are other definitions.
Colonial policy and imperialism existed before the latest stage of capitalism, and even before capitalism. Rome, founded on slavery, pursued a colonial policy and practised imperialism. But “general” disquisitions on imperialism, which ignore, or put into the background, the fundamental difference between socio-economic formations, inevitably turn into the most vapid banality or bragging, like the comparison: “Greater Rome and Greater Britain.”
Lead us and our legions from ignorance, Goblin!
For fun, I googled over to an older article on an African anarchist page about EU imperialism in Greece.
Is that imperialism?
For 30 years we gave to Greece billions of euros to modernize itself. I mean giving and not lending.
And at the end they told us they don't want to taxe part of their people and they need more money.
Yes, investment abroad and then getting repaid through the slashing of the living standards of workers and pensioners is pretty much a standard imperialist tool at this point.
If this is imperialism then imperialism is "good" for people who benefit from others' money!
Austerity in Greece caused more than 500 male suicides, say researchers
How are unemployed numbers in 18-30 age range in Greece these days?
Lead us and our legions from ignorance, Goblin!
There's a sentence you don't often see.
How are unemployed numbers in 18-30 age range in Greece these days?
Oh gee, I can't understand why any one in Eastern Ukraine might not want to get closer to the EU, nah, nevermind, they must be pro-Putin terrorists!
Lead us and our legions from ignorance, Goblin!There's a sentence you don't often see.
Google says it isn't actually existed till now.
How's that for your goblin soul?
Makes me feel all vanguard-y inside.
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Makes me feel all vanguard-y inside.
Let him lead from the front, Vlad! We'll have a clear shot at his back ... I mean, we can support him better from back here!!!
This seems pretty simple to me, though nobody actually has the self-control to follow through with it.
1. Ukrainians of different social backgrounds and languages should not commit violence against one another. If they absolutely, positively cannot stand each other, create a semi-autonomous region in the Eastern Ukraine, without outright splitting into separate nations, which is more trouble than it's worth.
2. Since the first sentence in number 1 is supposed to go without saying, the pretext for Russia's troop movements should no longer hold, and they should withdraw, and cease funding or supplying separatist movements in the Ukraine.
Of course, given the facts on the ground—that a violent separatist movement is actively working against a unified East and West Ukraine, that Russia desperately wants a naval base on the Black Sea, that Russia depends on the pipelines running through Ukraine to maintain the leverage over Western Europe their natural gas supplies give them—nobody is going to listen.
If they absolutely, positively cannot stand each other, create a semi-autonomous region in the Eastern Ukraine, without outright splitting into separate nations, which is more trouble than it's worth.
Funny. I thought that was what the "pro-Russian separatists" (and Sexy Putin, for that matter) were arguing for the entire time.
create a semi-autonomous region in the Eastern Ukraine, without outright splitting into separate nations, which is more trouble than it's worth.
Unacceptable.Giving east any degree of autonomy(and taxes!)will sink Ukraine faster than Roma after being struck by 2 ASM.
Russia desperately wants a naval base on the Black Sea
Russia had this base even before reunification.That would be Novorossiysk Naval Base.Sevastopol,while symbolically important,was not essential.
Russia depends on the pipelines running through Ukraine
And this is why south stream and north stream exists.
Who said semi-autonomy meant taxes?
Who said semi-autonomy meant taxes?
What can you possibly offer these people,then?
Also,and it's important,in the beginning the only requirement was russian language as a state language.No autonomy,no federalization,none of this (censored).Then came Odessa.And then there was airstrike at Lugansk.
After that...what's to negotiate?This is full-blown civil war,and it can end ONLY in total defeat of one side.
Which is why i kinda....not understand why Poroshenko even went to Minsk.
Rebels want independence,Ukraine is not willing to grant it.
Negotiations are literally impossible.
In other news,according to russian ultranationalist leader Eduard Limonov,
his organization now has a unit fighting for DPR and LPR.
So,nazis on both sides!
[Laughs politely at Citizen K(e)rensky's exhibition of wit]
Btw, Alex, I was wondering if you'd like to explain to Citoyen Spawn why you let him down so badly back in '17?
[Directs K(e)rensky's attention over to Spawn; leans back and motions for the Gray Gardeners to remove K(e)rensky from the thread]
Notice the change in rhetoric.
Now it's russian-backed separatists.Before it were pro-russian separatists.
I think in a month or two they will become Putin's personal guard.
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Which investment? It was just for the country to raise to the level of others, we asked them back nothing in exchange but to modernize their country. After 30 years they still can't raise taxes in their own country!
I'm always a little unsure of who you mean when you say "we". The entire continent of Europe minus Russia? All of Europe minus Greece? Or are you speaking on behalf of the banks of Europe?
Anyway, here's an interesting paragraph from the African anarchist (admittedly, years-old) article:
"The fact that continued self-interest is driving the French and German ruling classes’ position towards Greece, can be seen in the fact that while demanding that the Greek state cut social spending, no demands have been made for it to cut its military spending. The central reason why is that the Greek state is the largest purchaser of weapons from Germany’s arms industry and the third largest customer of French military exports. Consequently, the French and German states have placed no brakes on the level of the Greek state’s military spending. Thus, the Greek state has continued with high levels of military spending: in 2010 alone it spent 7.1 billion Euros on its military."
I don't have the knowledge or interest to go digging around in the financial press about the arrangements of French and German capitalism but if the French and German arms manufacturers aren't in some way connected to the French and German banks (a la Comrade Lenin's pamphlet), I'll stop posting in this thread.
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"We asked them back nothing in exchange except to dictate their politics, remove the elected government and replace it with an undemocratic puppet regime!"
Everyone knows Russia was supporting the separatists if not spawning them.
What are your sources?
To me,it seems,these guys,for example,doesn't know that.You see,i studied,among other things,scientific theory of communism and scientific atheism.You can't just throw propaganda at me and expect me to buy it.
All this for 7.1 billions euros
...and dismantling their elected government for a hand-picked set of anti-democratic ideologoues.
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All this for 7.1 billions euros, are you serious? Do you mean France and Germany gave Greece several dozen of billions to get 7.1 billions? Do you mean two countries whose economy represents 6,000 billions are risking to see their economies crash for 7.1 billions? Really??
That's 7.1 billion euros in one field in one year, Citoyen Banker's Mouthpiece. I wonder, but don't know, how many billions they spent on French and German armaments in previous years.
If you're so much supportive my dear Anklebiter maybe you can give me a bit of money, or accept to back me up for a loan. I'll pay back with smiles.
Earlier this year, I lent $300 to a co-worker that I'm never going to get back, so I'm afraid I can't lend you billions of euros for you to spend on my products, Citoyen BM. It's true, though, I am quite supportive of Greece cancelling their debt...and other things.
A bit old--and possibly out-of-date, I wouldn't know--but Forbes, the Capitalist's Tool on Ukraine:
Ukraine Welcomes IMF Austerity Regime
“The preconditions of the IMF’s stand-by agreement appear to have yoked the new government to an austerian death march. At the least, we hope a forthcoming European agreement might facilitate Ukrainian emigration to Western Europe to keep this geopolitical pressure cooker from exploding.”
says the awesomely-named Vlad Signorelli, who, despite his given-name, works for the Bretton Woods Research in Mt. Tabor, New Jersey which I doubt (but could be wrong) is a hotbed of Putinesque propaganda.
How long ago was it that the Portuguese government advised young people that if they wanted a future they should leave?
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Earlier this year, I lent $300 to a co-worker that I'm never going to get back, so I'm afraid I can't lend you billions of euros for you to spend on my products, Citoyen BM. It's true, though, I am quite supportive of Greece cancelling their debt...and other things.How generous from you Anklebiter, but you're still very greedy for a communist, you had to give him (and not lend) half your salary to your friend. How much money you spend in RPG and egoistic leisures and activities while people all around the world need money just to survive.
Yes, you enjoy your confort. You support if it doesn't cost you too much... Soft belly communism is nothing but hypocrite capitalism. How many time you decided to purchase a colorful game book knowing (or purposefully ignoring) $30 is a monthly income for many people on that planet.
$300 is someway what I gave to Greece through my taxes, what about you? How much did you give to the country beyond empty words of support?
It's not enough to get dress like a rebel to be one...
That's the most ridiculous bullshiznit I've seen in quite a while, Citoyen Banker's Mouthpiece. How old are you?
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How long ago was it that the Portuguese government advised young people that if they wanted a future they should leave?It's an option Portuguese use from time to time. Most of people from Portuguese origin we have in France came during the 70s and 80s. It's the way they do, more so considering the rate of development of some of their former colonies (still Portuguese-speaking) it would be stupid for them not to get advantage of the situation.
But considering Portugal, I'm sure you directly experienced how was the life there before entering the EU and how it is now.
No, I've never been to Portugal, but I am wondering how wise a choice it is to join the EU when so many of their member-states' populations are being given the choice of emigrate or starve.
But you may be right. International financial capitalism, or, imperialism in V.I's phrasing, doesn't really leave many options for weaker, client countries. IIRC, he covers that in Chapter 5: Division of the World Among Capitalist Associations.
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That's the most ridiculous bullshiznit I've seen in quite a while, Citoyen Banker's Mouthpiece. How old are?I'm 45 Anklebiter and paying taxes for the last 25 years.
Well, your "soft-bellied communist" screed sounded like the letters by 15-year-olds I used to read in punk rock magazines complaining about Rage Against the Machine's major label record contract.
Anyway, I don't buy $30 RPG books, but if I did, I'd make sure they were printed in the People's Republic of China.
No, I've never been to Portugal, but I am wondering how wise a choice it is to join the EU when so many of their member-states' populations are being given the choice of emigrate or starve.It's just ridiculous, no one starves anymore in the EU. Ask our grandparents they know what starving was! A study shows that, in average, we throw away 15% of our food still unpacked!
"Nobody starves in EU!" crows Citoyen Banker's Mouthpiece.
"More children in Greece go hungry" reports the New York Times
"The hunger line now starts in Spain and Portugal" sez Portuguese philanthropist reports The Guardian
EDIT: Woops, fixed second link.
Anyway, I don't buy $30 RPG books, but if I did, I'd make sure they were printed in the People's Republic of China.I agree with you, I also support slavery and children labor. If not happy about it they can still sell their organs.
For the record, I also don't have a mobile phone even though the comrades keep telling me to get one. Apparently, it's easier to plan picket lines and paper sales with one. I prefer e-mail.