The Ukraine thingy


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For fun, I googled over to an older article on an African anarchist page about EU imperialism in Greece.

Class War and Imperialism in Greece


Vlad Koroboff wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:


I don't really think the USSR was a very good example of communism, at all.

USSR actually was socialist country,but there never was a communism.

Also,even as socialist country for the last half of it's existence it was not...very good.
Except for scientists and their families^^

Socialist, sure. But the USSR failed as a communist entity - there was never a dictatorship of the proletariat, for example. It's brought up as a failed communist experiment but in reality it's communist pretentions never got beyond a revolutionary seizure of power.


JohnLocke wrote:
there was never a dictatorship of the proletariat, for example.

Except it was.Proletariat up to the rise of Nomenclatura was literally

ONLY REMAINING CLASS!
Brezhnev,for gods's sake,majored in agriculture,he was not some kind of hereditary politician.


JohnLocke wrote:
Vlad Koroboff wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:


I don't really think the USSR was a very good example of communism, at all.

USSR actually was socialist country,but there never was a communism.

Also,even as socialist country for the last half of it's existence it was not...very good.
Except for scientists and their families^^
Socialist, sure. But the USSR failed as a communist entity - there was never a dictatorship of the proletariat, for example. It's brought up as a failed communist experiment but in reality it's communist pretentions never got beyond a revolutionary seizure of power.

The same is true of every other communist country isn't it? Or are there actual examples you could point to where communist pretensions got beyond the revolutionary seizure of power?


thejeff wrote:
communist pretensions

Define your terms.


thejeff wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:
Vlad Koroboff wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:


I don't really think the USSR was a very good example of communism, at all.

USSR actually was socialist country,but there never was a communism.

Also,even as socialist country for the last half of it's existence it was not...very good.
Except for scientists and their families^^
Socialist, sure. But the USSR failed as a communist entity - there was never a dictatorship of the proletariat, for example. It's brought up as a failed communist experiment but in reality it's communist pretentions never got beyond a revolutionary seizure of power.
The same is true of every other communist country isn't it? Or are there actual examples you could point to where communist pretensions got beyond the revolutionary seizure of power?

Every communist experiment I've seen has turned out to be a socialistic enterprise with communist pretensions. Real communism is going to require a fundamental shift in how people view property, their relations to others, and themselves.

It's like trying to find a free market, anywhere, in history. It's never yet existed, so it's virtues cannot be adequately quantified.


Vlad Koroboff wrote:
thejeff wrote:
communist pretensions

Define your terms.

Ask JohnLocke, I was referencing his post, that I quoted.


Vlad Koroboff wrote:
thejeff wrote:
communist pretensions

Define your terms.

Jeff was using my term, Vlad. I used it because the USSR - which championed itself as the torchbearer for international communism - did not reflect what I believe communism is, nor was it an example of the benefits I believe it would bring to humanity.


JohnLocke wrote:
nor was it an example of the benefits I believe it would bring to humanity.

It was pretty good as far as a socialist country go.But when they declined the idea of world revolution...it's basically lost the right to hold the torch.Either you conquer capitalism or it finishes you.Sooner or later.

Mao thought the same.And he was a pretty smart guy.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

For fun, I googled over to an older article on an African anarchist page about EU imperialism in Greece.

Class War and Imperialism in Greece

Is that imperialism?

For 30 years we gave to Greece billions of euros to modernize itself. I mean giving and not lending.
And at the end they told us they don't want to taxe part of their people and they need more money.

If this is imperialism then imperialism is "good" for people who benefit from others' money!


thejeff wrote:
I'm certainly willing to agree that the USSR didn't practice "capitalist imperialism". I'm just not convinced that "communist imperialism" is really that much different for those being taken over by it. If we make an exception for the USSR not really being communist, I suppose we can make one for China too (imperialist takeover of Tibet and attempts at influence elsewhere.) In fact it seems that, kind of like non-communist nations powerful communist ones tend to try to extend that power and influence in basically the same ways. Weaker nations, both communist and otherwise aren't as imperialist, but that's due to lack of ability as much as anything.

I'd imagine that in some ways you are right. Sense of national humiliation, frustration at lack of democracy, etc., etc., I'd imagine are, indeed, pretty similar.

The maintenance of a higher standard of living, for example, among the Polish working class in the seventies and eighties--if that is actually true--compared with impoverishment lived in by, say Latin American peasants, during the same time period points to the differences.

Comrade Jeff wrote:
Near as I can tell, the basic pattern goes back well before capitalism, though the term came along later. "Imperial" Rome, anyone?

Sure. There are other definitions.

Comrade Lenin wrote:
Colonial policy and imperialism existed before the latest stage of capitalism, and even before capitalism. Rome, founded on slavery, pursued a colonial policy and practised imperialism. But “general” disquisitions on imperialism, which ignore, or put into the background, the fundamental difference between socio-economic formations, inevitably turn into the most vapid banality or bragging, like the comparison: “Greater Rome and Greater Britain.”


Lead us and our legions from ignorance, Goblin!


Angstspawn wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

For fun, I googled over to an older article on an African anarchist page about EU imperialism in Greece.

Class War and Imperialism in Greece

Is that imperialism?

For 30 years we gave to Greece billions of euros to modernize itself. I mean giving and not lending.
And at the end they told us they don't want to taxe part of their people and they need more money.

Yes, investment abroad and then getting repaid through the slashing of the living standards of workers and pensioners is pretty much a standard imperialist tool at this point.

Quote:
If this is imperialism then imperialism is "good" for people who benefit from others' money!

Austerity in Greece caused more than 500 male suicides, say researchers


How are unemployed numbers in 18-30 age range in Greece these days?


JohnLocke wrote:
Lead us and our legions from ignorance, Goblin!

There's a sentence you don't often see.


Vlad Koroboff wrote:

How are unemployed numbers in 18-30 age range in Greece these days?

Oh gee, I can't understand why any one in Eastern Ukraine might not want to get closer to the EU, nah, nevermind, they must be pro-Putin terrorists!


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:
Lead us and our legions from ignorance, Goblin!
There's a sentence you don't often see.

Google says it isn't actually existed till now.

How's that for your goblin soul?


Makes me feel all vanguard-y inside.


A useful article for understanding how the IMF and other banks act as a projection of Imperialist power.


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Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Makes me feel all vanguard-y inside.

Let him lead from the front, Vlad! We'll have a clear shot at his back ... I mean, we can support him better from back here!!!


This seems pretty simple to me, though nobody actually has the self-control to follow through with it.

1. Ukrainians of different social backgrounds and languages should not commit violence against one another. If they absolutely, positively cannot stand each other, create a semi-autonomous region in the Eastern Ukraine, without outright splitting into separate nations, which is more trouble than it's worth.

2. Since the first sentence in number 1 is supposed to go without saying, the pretext for Russia's troop movements should no longer hold, and they should withdraw, and cease funding or supplying separatist movements in the Ukraine.

Of course, given the facts on the ground—that a violent separatist movement is actively working against a unified East and West Ukraine, that Russia desperately wants a naval base on the Black Sea, that Russia depends on the pipelines running through Ukraine to maintain the leverage over Western Europe their natural gas supplies give them—nobody is going to listen.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
If they absolutely, positively cannot stand each other, create a semi-autonomous region in the Eastern Ukraine, without outright splitting into separate nations, which is more trouble than it's worth.

Funny. I thought that was what the "pro-Russian separatists" (and Sexy Putin, for that matter) were arguing for the entire time.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
create a semi-autonomous region in the Eastern Ukraine, without outright splitting into separate nations, which is more trouble than it's worth.

Unacceptable.Giving east any degree of autonomy(and taxes!)will sink Ukraine faster than Roma after being struck by 2 ASM.

Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Russia desperately wants a naval base on the Black Sea

Russia had this base even before reunification.That would be Novorossiysk Naval Base.Sevastopol,while symbolically important,was not essential.

Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Russia depends on the pipelines running through Ukraine

And this is why south stream and north stream exists.


Who said semi-autonomy meant taxes?


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Who said semi-autonomy meant taxes?

What can you possibly offer these people,then?

Also,and it's important,in the beginning the only requirement was russian language as a state language.No autonomy,no federalization,none of this (censored).
Then came Odessa.And then there was airstrike at Lugansk.
After that...what's to negotiate?This is full-blown civil war,and it can end ONLY in total defeat of one side.
Which is why i kinda....not understand why Poroshenko even went to Minsk.
Rebels want independence,Ukraine is not willing to grant it.
Negotiations are literally impossible.

In other news,according to russian ultranationalist leader Eduard Limonov,
his organization now has a unit fighting for DPR and LPR.
So,nazis on both sides!


So Russia's retaliatory sanctions on imports are insignificant, huh?

The extent to which foreign agents dominate American politics and media continues to stun me.

Typical media hypocrisy.

Liberty's Edge

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:
Lead us and our legions from ignorance, Goblin!
There's a sentence you don't often see.

Surprising since almost by definition goblin leadership would be leadership from ignorance.


[Laughs politely at Citizen K(e)rensky's exhibition of wit]

Btw, Alex, I was wondering if you'd like to explain to Citoyen Spawn why you let him down so badly back in '17?

[Directs K(e)rensky's attention over to Spawn; leans back and motions for the Gray Gardeners to remove K(e)rensky from the thread]


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Yes, investment abroad and then getting repaid through the slashing of the living standards of workers and pensioners is pretty much a standard imperialist tool at this point.

[...]

Austerity in Greece caused more than 500 male suicides, say researchers

Which investment? It was just for the country to raise to the level of others, we asked them back nothing in exchange but to modernize their country. After 30 years they still can't raise taxes in their own country!

500 suicides? Maybe, but who's fault? They contracted debts to raise the salaries of people and, when they said they can't pay their debts we told them we pay part of them but they'll have to manage to pay the rest. Definitely it's hard but instead of building useless airports and organizing Olympic games they had to use the money we gave them to restructure the country. They used their EU membership to get more debts and now we should pay them? I don't think so!
They have big companies they refuse to tax, they have rich orthodox churches they refuse to tax, they have people cheating all kind of taxes, and we should pay? Why? Because they're Greek? We also have people who suicide, we also have poor people, still we use a small part of our money to help them not forgetting we gave garanties to banks over our own assets for them not to bankrupt.

Imperialism? No, a minimum sense of reality! When you're cheating your country, at the end it's you you're cheating.


Notice the change in rhetoric.
Now it's russian-backed separatists.Before it were pro-russian separatists.
I think in a month or two they will become Putin's personal guard.


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Angstspawn wrote:
Which investment? It was just for the country to raise to the level of others, we asked them back nothing in exchange but to modernize their country. After 30 years they still can't raise taxes in their own country!

I'm always a little unsure of who you mean when you say "we". The entire continent of Europe minus Russia? All of Europe minus Greece? Or are you speaking on behalf of the banks of Europe?

Anyway, here's an interesting paragraph from the African anarchist (admittedly, years-old) article:

"The fact that continued self-interest is driving the French and German ruling classes’ position towards Greece, can be seen in the fact that while demanding that the Greek state cut social spending, no demands have been made for it to cut its military spending. The central reason why is that the Greek state is the largest purchaser of weapons from Germany’s arms industry and the third largest customer of French military exports. Consequently, the French and German states have placed no brakes on the level of the Greek state’s military spending. Thus, the Greek state has continued with high levels of military spending: in 2010 alone it spent 7.1 billion Euros on its military."

I don't have the knowledge or interest to go digging around in the financial press about the arrangements of French and German capitalism but if the French and German arms manufacturers aren't in some way connected to the French and German banks (a la Comrade Lenin's pamphlet), I'll stop posting in this thread.


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"We asked them back nothing in exchange except to dictate their politics, remove the elected government and replace it with an undemocratic puppet regime!"


Everyone knows Russia was supporting the separatists if not spawning them.
Providing them weapons and special forces counselors was supporting separatists, engaging regular troops is backing them.

Now Ukraine's government officially asks for NATO support (strongly supported by Poland and the Baltic states).
Accepting NATO will be indirectly confronting Russia for the first time since the end of Cold War.
Refusing, NATO accept a forthcoming full invasion of Ukraine by Russia.
Both reaction might end with a new Cold War or at least a Very Fresh War.

This new decision of Putin is the proof divorce between the Western world and Russia is almost acted. There's too much to loose for both sides in a direct confrontation but both parties are thinking their future separately.

The crisis started with the "extra-marital affair" with Georgia and no side will now accept "being cheated" with Ukraine. As "the threesome" or "friend with benefit" option is not accepted by Russia, there's no issue but divorce.
Like in all divorce there'll be a division of assets that will affect each side.
Russia is still beautiful but West has the money, so China will most probably date Russia as long as at it'll keep its ressources attractive while keeping a business relationship with Western countries to secure its own development.

As I said before, the post-Craig James Bond will see Russians coming back. If the scenario and director are as good as in Skyfall, it might be the best James Bond movie ever!
Besides this I see nothing good coming out from the Ukraine crisis for anyone...


Angstspawn wrote:
Everyone knows Russia was supporting the separatists if not spawning them.

What are your sources?

To me,it seems,these guys,for example,doesn't know that.
You see,i studied,among other things,scientific theory of communism and scientific atheism.You can't just throw propaganda at me and expect me to buy it.

Spoilers:
Yes,these are really real sciences that were actually existed.I have my textbooks to this day


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

"The fact that continued self-interest is driving the French and German ruling classes’ position towards Greece, can be seen in the fact that while demanding that the Greek state cut social spending, no demands have been made for it to cut its military spending. The central reason why is that the Greek state is the largest purchaser of weapons from Germany’s arms industry and the third largest customer of French military exports. Consequently, the French and German states have placed no brakes on the level of the Greek state’s military spending. Thus, the Greek state has continued with high levels of military spending: in 2010 alone it spent 7.1 billion Euros on its military."

I don't have the knowledge or interest to go digging around in the financial press about the arrangements of French and German capitalism but if the French and German arms manufacturers aren't in some way connected to the French and German banks (a la Comrade Lenin's pamphlet), I'll stop posting in this thread.

All this for 7.1 billions euros, are you serious? Do you mean France and Germany gave Greece several dozen of billions to get 7.1 billions? Do you mean two countries whose economy represents 6,000 billions are risking to see their economies crash for 7.1 billions? Really??

Greek are refusing military expenses limitation because of an ages-old feud with Turkey.
Now France and Germany are not telling to Greece to make social cut, they just ask it to be able to pay the debts it willingly contracted from banks.
If you're so much supportive my dear Anklebiter maybe you can give me a bit of money, or accept to back me up for a loan. I'll pay back with smiles.


Angstspawn wrote:
All this for 7.1 billions euros

...and dismantling their elected government for a hand-picked set of anti-democratic ideologoues.


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Angstspawn wrote:

All this for 7.1 billions euros, are you serious? Do you mean France and Germany gave Greece several dozen of billions to get 7.1 billions? Do you mean two countries whose economy represents 6,000 billions are risking to see their economies crash for 7.1 billions? Really??

That's 7.1 billion euros in one field in one year, Citoyen Banker's Mouthpiece. I wonder, but don't know, how many billions they spent on French and German armaments in previous years.

Citoyen Banker's Mouthpiece wrote:
If you're so much supportive my dear Anklebiter maybe you can give me a bit of money, or accept to back me up for a loan. I'll pay back with smiles.

Earlier this year, I lent $300 to a co-worker that I'm never going to get back, so I'm afraid I can't lend you billions of euros for you to spend on my products, Citoyen BM. It's true, though, I am quite supportive of Greece cancelling their debt...and other things.


Gaberlunzie wrote:
"We asked them back nothing in exchange except to dictate their politics, remove the elected government and replace it with an undemocratic puppet regime!"

No one dictates Greece what they have to do, but so far I know only two ways to come out of debt: either you get more money or, you reduce your expenses (most of time you've to do both).

If you know another way my dear Gaberlunzie I'm the first to be interested in your solution.

So for sure when your options become that reduced you feel extremely limited, it's the reason my mother always told me don't contract debts. I think it's a bit extreme but definitely when you start taking a loan to pay your taxes or to buy food for the month you've to understand you're in a serious situation.
If you do nothing it'll turn critical, it's what happened to Greece.
I understand people need and deserve their retirement or social help but they had to feel more concerned about it ten years ago.

Now, you can consider not paying your debt but if you still need to lend money to finish the month, and the next one, and the next one, I'm afraid it's not an option either...


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Angstspawn wrote:
Gaberlunzie wrote:
"We asked them back nothing in exchange except to dictate their politics, remove the elected government and replace it with an undemocratic puppet regime!"

No one dictates Greece what they have to do, but so far I know only two ways to come out of debt: either you get more money or, you reduce your expenses (most of time you've to do both).

If you know another way my dear Gaberlunzie I'm the first to be interested in your solution.

So for sure when your options become that reduced you feel extremely limited, it's the reason my mother always told me don't contract debts. I think it's a bit extreme but definitely when you start taking a loan to pay your taxes or to buy food for the month you've to understand you're in a serious situation.
If you do nothing it'll turn critical, it's what happened to Greece.
I understand people need and deserve their retirement or social help but they had to feel more concerned about it ten years ago.

Now, you can consider not paying your debt but if you still need to lend money to finish the month, and the next one, and the next one, I'm afraid it's not an option either...

Sadly national economies don't work like personal finance. Whether or not Greece should have gotten in debt (or spent the money as it did) is a valid question.

In general the best way for a country to get more money is to grow the economy. Cutting spending definitely counters that and raising taxes on the general population does so as well. And increases instability and requires more security.
Austerity is a vicious cycle.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Earlier this year, I lent $300 to a co-worker that I'm never going to get back, so I'm afraid I can't lend you billions of euros for you to spend on my products, Citoyen BM. It's true, though, I am quite supportive of Greece cancelling their debt...and other things.

How generous from you Anklebiter, but you're still very greedy for a communist, you had to give him (and not lend) half your salary to your friend. How much money you spend in RPG and egoistic leisures and activities while people all around the world need money just to survive.

Yes, you enjoy your confort. You support if it doesn't cost you too much... Soft belly communism is nothing but hypocrite capitalism. How many time you decided to purchase a colorful game book knowing (or purposefully ignoring) $30 is a monthly income for many people on that planet.

$300 is someway what I gave to Greece through my taxes, what about you? How much did you give to the country beyond empty words of support?
It's not enough to get dress like a rebel to be one...


A bit old--and possibly out-of-date, I wouldn't know--but Forbes, the Capitalist's Tool on Ukraine:

Ukraine Welcomes IMF Austerity Regime

“The preconditions of the IMF’s stand-by agreement appear to have yoked the new government to an austerian death march. At the least, we hope a forthcoming European agreement might facilitate Ukrainian emigration to Western Europe to keep this geopolitical pressure cooker from exploding.”

says the awesomely-named Vlad Signorelli, who, despite his given-name, works for the Bretton Woods Research in Mt. Tabor, New Jersey which I doubt (but could be wrong) is a hotbed of Putinesque propaganda.

How long ago was it that the Portuguese government advised young people that if they wanted a future they should leave?


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Angstspawn wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Earlier this year, I lent $300 to a co-worker that I'm never going to get back, so I'm afraid I can't lend you billions of euros for you to spend on my products, Citoyen BM. It's true, though, I am quite supportive of Greece cancelling their debt...and other things.

How generous from you Anklebiter, but you're still very greedy for a communist, you had to give him (and not lend) half your salary to your friend. How much money you spend in RPG and egoistic leisures and activities while people all around the world need money just to survive.

Yes, you enjoy your confort. You support if it doesn't cost you too much... Soft belly communism is nothing but hypocrite capitalism. How many time you decided to purchase a colorful game book knowing (or purposefully ignoring) $30 is a monthly income for many people on that planet.

$300 is someway what I gave to Greece through my taxes, what about you? How much did you give to the country beyond empty words of support?
It's not enough to get dress like a rebel to be one...

That's the most ridiculous bullshiznit I've seen in quite a while, Citoyen Banker's Mouthpiece. How old are you?


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
How long ago was it that the Portuguese government advised young people that if they wanted a future they should leave?

It's an option Portuguese use from time to time. Most of people from Portuguese origin we have in France came during the 70s and 80s. It's the way they do, more so considering the rate of development of some of their former colonies (still Portuguese-speaking) it would be stupid for them not to get advantage of the situation.

But considering Portugal, I'm sure you directly experienced how was the life there before entering the EU and how it is now.


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Angstspawn wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
How long ago was it that the Portuguese government advised young people that if they wanted a future they should leave?

It's an option Portuguese use from time to time. Most of people from Portuguese origin we have in France came during the 70s and 80s. It's the way they do, more so considering the rate of development of some of their former colonies (still Portuguese-speaking) it would be stupid for them not to get advantage of the situation.

But considering Portugal, I'm sure you directly experienced how was the life there before entering the EU and how it is now.

No, I've never been to Portugal, but I am wondering how wise a choice it is to join the EU when so many of their member-states' populations are being given the choice of emigrate or starve.

But you may be right. International financial capitalism, or, imperialism in V.I's phrasing, doesn't really leave many options for weaker, client countries. IIRC, he covers that in Chapter 5: Division of the World Among Capitalist Associations.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
That's the most ridiculous bullshiznit I've seen in quite a while, Citoyen Banker's Mouthpiece. How old are?

I'm 45 Anklebiter and paying taxes for the last 25 years. I do remember these countries entering the EU, I do remember how we were supporting them. I do remember the choices they made, some were good, some weren't (like for anyone). I do remember them begging to enter EU. I do remember us accepting and why. I do remember how much it cost us, which parts of our industry and agriculture we sacrificed.

I do remember and I went to many neighbor or farther countries in Europe. I do remember the way of life from the 80s to now. I do remember the speech of political leaders (even communists). I don't get b$$$&~&!ed by tales, simply because I do remember what I saw and heard.


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Angstspawn wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
That's the most ridiculous bullshiznit I've seen in quite a while, Citoyen Banker's Mouthpiece. How old are?
I'm 45 Anklebiter and paying taxes for the last 25 years.

Well, your "soft-bellied communist" screed sounded like the letters by 15-year-olds I used to read in punk rock magazines complaining about Rage Against the Machine's major label record contract.

Anyway, I don't buy $30 RPG books, but if I did, I'd make sure they were printed in the People's Republic of China.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
No, I've never been to Portugal, but I am wondering how wise a choice it is to join the EU when so many of their member-states' populations are being given the choice of emigrate or starve.

It's just ridiculous, no one starves anymore in the EU. Ask our grandparents they know what starving was! A study shows that, in average, we throw away 15% of our food still unpacked!

Portugal is ranked 41 among all the countries of this planet, Greece is ranked 29. I agree ranking doesn't mean everything but it gives an idea.
Life isn't perfect in the EU, we have a crisis (like many countries), but never forget that the crisis in a very rich country is far beyond the dream of growth of a very poor country.
We can, and should, try to get a better and better life but we have an obligation to be decent. When some people on this planet are confronted to survival we just have to face either paying our mobile phone bill or buying a video game!

We have to be decent in our complain, suffering is something we never saw for most of us. We have no obligation to save this people but the least we can do is to respect them and not to call our spoiled children caprices, suffering. Be decent!


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Anyway, I don't buy $30 RPG books, but if I did, I'd make sure they were printed in the People's Republic of China.

I agree with you, I also support slavery and children labor. If not happy about it they can still sell their organs.


Angstspawn wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
No, I've never been to Portugal, but I am wondering how wise a choice it is to join the EU when so many of their member-states' populations are being given the choice of emigrate or starve.
It's just ridiculous, no one starves anymore in the EU. Ask our grandparents they know what starving was! A study shows that, in average, we throw away 15% of our food still unpacked!

"Nobody starves in EU!" crows Citoyen Banker's Mouthpiece.

"More children in Greece go hungry" reports the New York Times

"The hunger line now starts in Spain and Portugal" sez Portuguese philanthropist reports The Guardian

EDIT: Woops, fixed second link.


Angstspawn wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Anyway, I don't buy $30 RPG books, but if I did, I'd make sure they were printed in the People's Republic of China.
I agree with you, I also support slavery and children labor. If not happy about it they can still sell their organs.

For the record, I also don't have a mobile phone even though the comrades keep telling me to get one. Apparently, it's easier to plan picket lines and paper sales with one. I prefer e-mail.

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