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In a recent game, a character was affected by a Harpy's Captivating Song, walked towards the Harpy and the Harpy then performed a coup-de-grace the next turn, killing the character.
Is this the correct interpretation? Does a character affected by a Harpy's Captivating Song count as helpless for a coup-de-grace? If it does, it seems a very powerful ability for a CR 4 monster.
The Kelpie (and possibly others) have a similar ability.
Rules:
Captivating Song (Su) A harpy's song has the power to infect the minds of those that hear it, calling them to the harpy's side. When a harpy sings, all creatures aside from other harpies within a 300-foot spread must succeed on a DC 16 Will saving throw or become captivated. A creature that successfully saves is not subject to the same harpy's song for 24 hours. A victim under the effects of the captivating song moves toward the harpy using the most direct means available. If the path leads them into a dangerous area such as through fire or off a cliff, that creature receives a second saving throw to end the effect before moving into peril. Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend themselves. A victim within 5 feet of the harpy simply stands and offers no resistance to the harpy's attacks. This effect continues for as long as the harpy sings and for 1 round thereafter. This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Captivating Lure (Su) Once per day, a kelpie can use a powerful mental attack to lure in a single creature within 60 feet. The target must make a DC 16 Will saving throw or become captivated by the kelpie, thinking it is a desirable woman in mortal danger or (if in hippocampus or horse form) a valuable steed. A victim under the effects of the captivating lure moves toward the kelpie using the most direct means available. If the path leads it into a dangerous area such as through fire or off a cliff, that creature receives a second saving throw to end the effect before moving into peril; the victim does not consider water a dangerous area, and will enter the water even if it cannot swim or breathe. A captivated creature can take no actions other than to move toward the kelpie and defend itself, even if it is drowning. A victim within 5 feet of the kelpie simply stands and offers no resistance to its attacks. This effect continues as long as the kelpie is alive and the victim is within 1 mile of the kelpie. This is a mind-affecting charm effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
Thanks for your help!
If something does not specifically call out that it makes you helpless, it does not. Same with any other effect really.
If you sneak up behind a guard and bury a dagger in his neck, you cant coup de grace him, because he isn't helpless. Its sorta dumb, but in a game with magic you need it to prevent exploitative shenanigans.
So no, the harpy could not coup de grace. She would have to attack the character to death.
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Hi Phosphorus,
The thing about Harpy Song is that it's a bit poorly worded and there has been numerous topics debating this same question. Maybe you should check them out first.
I would say that harpy can coup de grace person, but I would feel inclined to grant person another Will Save at least. This is personal opinion and I can't really say if it's supposed to work like that.
Malag
To elaborate, another indication that the character clearly isn't Helpless, is the Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend themselves. line. If you can defend yourself, you are not Helpless.
At the A victim within 5 feet of the harpy simply stands and offers no resistance to the harpy's attacks. line, the victim is no worse off than the guard the rogue sneaks up behind. He isn't helpless, and so cannot be Coup de Graced.
Its pretty clear cut, I'm not sure why there are a lot of threads about it.
Had this situation come up in my AoW campaign a couple weeks ago. I ruled in favor of the Coup-De-Grace working, but only for that one round. Druid got hit by low damage and rolled well on the Fortitude save, Rogue failed. I gave everyone one mythic tier (there are only 3 of them) to help balance out the group just a bit. So the cleric was able to go use Relentless Healing on her and save her life. They then beat the harpies to death, only to die a couple hours later at the "hands" of:
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Hi Phosphorus,
The thing about Harpy Song is that it's a bit poorly worded and there has been numerous topics debating this same question. Maybe you should check them out first.
I would say that harpy can coup de grace person, but I would feel inclined to grant person another Will Save at least. This is personal opinion and I can't really say if it's supposed to work like that.
Malag
Thanks for the replies from everyone. I have read previous threads, but they don't really seem to reach a conclusion or consensus, so I thought it might be worth bringing up again.
It seems that for every person who says you can perform a coup-de-grace, there is another who says you can't.
Captivated creatures are not Helpless. clear cut,
Captivated creatures are not Helpless. clear cut,
Agreed.
It's often mis-run and mis-understood, but objectively you have got to be *helpless* to be coup-de-graced. Reading the ability and running it wrong is forgivable. Knowingly ignoring the coup-de-grace rules is much less forgivable.
That said, for home games like Sindalla's with special rules, that's a table issue.
What's the definition of Helpless according to RAW?
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
What does a harpy's song do according to RAW?
Captivating Song (Su) A harpy's song has the power to infect the minds of those that hear it, calling them to the harpy's side. When a harpy sings, all creatures aside from other harpies within a 300-foot spread must succeed on a DC 16 Will saving throw or become captivated. A creature that successfully saves is not subject to the same harpy's song for 24 hours. A victim under the effects of the captivating song moves toward the harpy using the most direct means available. If the path leads them into a dangerous area such as through fire or off a cliff, that creature receives a second saving throw to end the effect before moving into peril. Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend themselves. A victim within 5 feet of the harpy simply stands and offers no resistance to the harpy's attacks. This effect continues for as long as the harpy sings and for 1 round thereafter. This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Also @Deliverance, where is it clear cut? If it was so "clear cut" as you say it is, there wouldn't be a need for these types of forums.
Find me a quote saying captivated creatures aren't helpless to the harpy and I will immediately agree with you. Until then, I believe harpy's get at least one coup de grace.
Quote: "defend themselves" - there isn't a clearer way of saying 'not helpless' than saying that they defend themselves.
Harpy songis really simple. You fail, you walk towards her. You get to her, you stand there. All the while, you defend yourself, as much as any dazed creature does.
Again, it sounded like a fair ruling for your table Sindalla, but it's not how it normally works.
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Quote: "defend themselves" - there isn't a clearer way of saying 'not helpless' than saying that they defend themselves.
Harpy songis really simple. You fail, you walk towards her. You get to her, you stand there. All the while, you defend yourself, as much as any dazed creature does.
Again, it sounded like a fair ruling for your table Sindalla, but it's not how it normally works.
You are focusing on the wrong part of the ability, Majuba. The captivated character explicitly does NOT defend herself against the happy she is captivated by.
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@Majuba & Deliverance
The two sentences in Harpy Song completely contradict themselves and you can argue it both way until the end of time which is correct interpretation. This is still perfect FAQ question if you ask me since there is not consensus about how the ability works. What's clear for you, might not be clear for others, and even if you are correct, question will still pop up eventually again.
Malag
I don't think the sentences contradict one another. One is general - if attacked, you can defend yourself - and one is more specific - if you are attacked by the harpy while it's adjacent, you can't offer resistance. Specific trumps general when both apply.
But are the phrases 'defend yourself' and 'offer resistance' defined anywhere? Defending yourself could mean attacking enemies, or just not being flat-footed to them. Not offering resistance could mean not attacking, or it could mean being flat-footed, or it could mean helplessness. Seems FAQ-worthy to me.
"Defend yourself" is well understood from the "Dazed" condition.
"No resistance" is not defined in game, however it *is* well defined in general, particularly in the context of offering resistance to arrest:
Resistance may sound like a defensive act, but it is offensive - an attack in response to another. See also a "Resistance Fighter".
Al Hasan was the only top-order batsman to offer resistance, scoring 56 off 73 balls with six fours.
Legal Dictionary: RESISTANCE. The opposition of force to force.
Resistance is either lawful or unlawful. 1. It is lawful ... See self defence [Majuba: where one may *attack* someone else, not simply avoid attack]...
3.-2. Resistance is unlawful ... if the party guilty of such resistance, or others assisting him, be killed in the struggle, such homicide is justifiable; while on the other hand, if the officer be killed, it will, at common law, be murder in those who resist.
I'll FAQ it, as I have before, but the ability clear, if legitimately confusing. You defend yourself and walk to the harpy, then you stop, and you never attack back. If it did anything more, it would say so in clear terms.
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"Defend yourself" is well understood from the "Dazed" condition.
"No resistance" is not defined in game, however it *is* well defined in general, particularly in the context of offering resistance to arrest:
resisting arrest n. the crime of using physical force (no matter how slight in the eyes of most law enforcement officers) to prevent arrest. Resistance may sound like a defensive act, but it is offensive - an attack in response to another.
So, running away from a police officer who is trying to arrest you isn't considered resisting arrest? How about dodging his attempts to cuff you?
To me a more pressing question about Captivating Song is what sort of action the harpy needs to use to maintain it. If it is a free action then a few failed saves can result in a TPK, which seems bad. This is how I've seem most GMs rule it, but I'm not sure if it is correct.
If maintaining the song is a standard action then the average harpy only gets 1 round of free attacks on 1 victim, which seems pretty weak without coup de grace. Of course victims who fail 2 saves might walk off a cliff, so the monster could still have its uses.
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To me a more pressing question about Captivating Song is what sort of action the harpy needs to use to maintain it. If it is a free action then a few failed saves can result in a TPK, which seems bad. This is how I've seem most GMs rule it, but I'm not sure if it is correct.
This has been answered before, but it does no harm to restate what I believe is the correct answer. It is a standard action, because there is no text that states otherwise.
The reason for the confusion is that people think that the Captivating Song should be treated like a bardic performance, but the Captivating Song does not contain any text that overrules the fact a supernatural ability is a standard action.
Rules:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
This pertains only to the bard:
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action.
I hope that helps. :-)
I think it would be fun using harpies to lure victims off cliffs, into pits, and through trapped areas.
@Phosphorus - The text you quoted also says that using a supernatural ability "does not require concentration", so it seems to me like there could still be room for confusion since concentration can refer to maintaining an effect once it is active as well as to casting a spell while distracted. I think it is being used in the latter sense here, but as I'd said before, I've seen multiple DMs rule that the harpy can keep on singing during a full attack.
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It's a somewhat dick move, because Harpies don't usually play that way. They prefer slow tormenting kills, they play with their food,... There's also the issue of other characters being involved. Performing coup de gras is a full round action which leaves you open to attack from anyone else who can intervene during that round.In a recent game, a character was affected by a Harpy's Captivating Song, walked towards the Harpy and the Harpy then performed a coup-de-grace the next turn, killing the character.
Is this the correct interpretation? Does a character affected by a Harpy's Captivating Song count as helpless for a coup-de-grace? If it does, it seems a very powerful ability for a CR 4 monster.
It don't think it's a dick move if you are following what you believe to be the rules. Not all Harpies will want a slow, tormenting kill. In fact, what better way to torment the allies of the coup-de-grace victim than to kill their friend?
In any case, Kelpies also have a very similar ability.
In the game in question, I think the entire party fell prey to the Captivating Song, so there was nobody to prevent the coup-de-grace.
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I think it would be fun using harpies to lure victims off cliffs, into pits, and through trapped areas.
@Phosphorus - The text you quoted also says that using a supernatural ability "does not require concentration", so it seems to me like there could still be room for confusion since concentration can refer to maintaining an effect once it is active as well as to casting a spell while distracted. I think it is being used in the latter sense here, but as I'd said before, I've seen multiple DMs rule that the harpy can keep on singing during a full attack.
I agree, the rules can be confusing as they are often quite Byzantine.
Concentration is required cast spells, not supernatural abilities:
From the Core Rulebook:
"Concentration Check: When a creature is casting a spell, but is disrupted during the casting, he must make a concentration check or fail to cast the spell (see Chapter 9)."
"To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you're casting, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell. When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type."
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So what? What Harpies do is pretty much identical form to a Bardic performance. It's rather hard to argue that they are less adept at that than a Bard is.Because a Harpy is not a bard.I've seen multiple DMs rule that the harpy can keep on singing during a full attack.Why not? Bards can, after all, and Harpies are essentially natural highly specialised bards.
"They're conceptually similar, therefore they work the same mechanically despite the rules saying otherwise" doesn't really belong in the Rules Questions forum.
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So what? What Harpies do is pretty much identical form to a Bardic performance. It's rather hard to argue that they are less adept at that than a Bard is.Because a Harpy is not a bard.I've seen multiple DMs rule that the harpy can keep on singing during a full attack.Why not? Bards can, after all, and Harpies are essentially natural highly specialised bards.
A Harpy is not a Bard, nor is their Captivating Song a Bardic Performance.
It seems like folks disagree pretty strongly. I think it would be interesting to know the official answers to these questions.
If the harpy doesn't need to use a standard action to maintain the captivating song it is a very dangerous monster. If it does need to maintain the song with a standard but can perform a coup de grace on a captivated foe it is a fairly dangerous monster. If it needs to maintain as a standard action and can't perform a coup de grace on a captivated foe it is kind of a goofy monster which might be fun around natural hazards. I think the version which doesn't need to maintain seems pretty dangerous for CR4, especially in groups.
What's the definition of Helpless according to RAW?
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
Helpless is Helpless. If something doesn't say it renders you Helpless, it doesn't, pure and simple. Just look at my previous example. If you sneak up behind a guard and sink a knife into him, you don't get to Coup him, because he isn't Helpless. Helpless isn't something you are to one person, its a general condition. The guard in the example is no less Helpless against the rogue in the shadows behind him, than he is against the rogue coming right at him.
Once you start interpreting the rules based on description rather than what the rules actually say, you set yourself up for a whole world of misunderstandings.
A good example is the Pinned condition. In "real life" if I got you pinned on the floor, my friend would have zero trouble standing over you and just driving his greatsword into your head for a clean kill.
But you aren't Helpless while Pinned either.
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By the way, for what it's worth (I realize it's not official), here's James Jacobs' thoughts on the action issue, in response to my having asked about it a year and a half ago:
Correct; if no action is given, it's a standard action. If the harpy wants to sing more than one round, she needs to take additional standard actions in the rounds that follow to keep singing.
The way it's supposed to work is that the harpy lures a victim close, then attacks. It lasts 1 additional round, giving the harpy a free round to attack the foe, essentially, after which she can flee or keep attacking or start singing again or whatever.
What's the definition of Helpless according to RAW?
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
Helpless is Helpless. If something doesn't say it renders you Helpless, it doesn't, pure and simple. Just look at my previous example. If you sneak up behind a guard and sink a knife into him, you don't get to Coup him, because he isn't Helpless. Helpless isn't something you are to one person, its a general condition. The guard in the example is no less Helpless against the rogue in the shadows behind him, than he is against the rogue coming right at him.
Once you start interpreting the rules based on description rather than what the rules actually say, you set yourself up for a whole world of misunderstandings.
A good example is the Pinned condition. In "real life" if I got you pinned on the floor, my friend would have zero trouble standing over you and just driving his greatsword into your head for a clean kill.
But you aren't Helpless while Pinned either.
Hold Person doesn't say that it renders them helpless. However, everyone knows that it does. Why? Because Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
Just like a captivated foe doesn't offer any resistance to a harpy's attacks and is therefore "completely at her mercy" for that round.
Pure and simple.
I also just realized something.
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
What does the description of "held" mean in this case? Would being pinned count as being "held" down?
If so, Deliverence's example of real life vs. pathfinder life would line up better. A friend has someone pinned to the ground, a greataxe is getting dropped on their neck.
A guard that you sneak up on is not helpless because he has the ability to hear, see, smell and feel you. He can react if any of those things happen. He could even just randomly step forward and screw up your attack. THAT is why he is not helpless.
"simply stands and offers no resistance..." sounds a lot like helpless to me.
General - No action but defense.
Exception - (Qualifier 1) When within 5' of Harpy, (Result) simply stands and offers no resistance, (Qualifier 2) to the Harpy's attacks.
Seems helpless to me.
@Jiggy - Unless there's a FAQ I guess JJ's post is probably the closest thing we have to an official ruling. I'll ask the groups I play with to consider it. Of course a group of harpies could still pull a stunt where they all sing and then one stops to go kill the captivated victims. It seems like there should probably be a new saving throw if you get attacked, but the ability doesn't say anything about that.
@Sindalla - I think "held" in this case refers to effects like Hold Person. If you have somebody pinned you can use rope to tie them up though.
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Regarding pinned condition, this is copy-pasted from d20pfsrd.com:
Helpless - Typically paralyzed, held, bound, pinned, sleeping, unconscious, etc. Effective Dex = 0, melee attacks get +4. Allows coup de grace.
Pinned is mentioned under quick reference that character is helpless, but I believe that target keeping character pinned can't coup de grace him since it has to keep him pinned. You need essentially two enemies; one to pin target and another to coup de grace him for this to work.
It's slightly off-topic, but just wanted to point it out.
Malag
The Glossary on the Paizo PRD appears to have a different and longer definition for Helpless. It also has some other rules for Pinned which include losing your Dex bonus but don't seem to include having a Dex of 0.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
If "pinned = helpless" then I guess somebody with Rapid Grappler could pin you as a swift action and CdG you as a full-round action. I don't think that's intended though I couldn't say for sure.
Rapid Grappler (Combat)
You are a quick hand at grappling.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 9th.
Benefit: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check.
Greater Grapple (Combat)
Maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.
Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6, Dex 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
Normal: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action.
You have to coup de grace as a full round action. Rapid Grappler still requires a move action, so you wouldn't be able to. Someone else would have to come up to the guy you've got in a headlock to gut him.
Ok, I hadn't read the feat recently. If being pinned really makes you helpless that still seems like a really deadly situation. I'll probably start another thread all about how pinning works in Pathfinder. I need to know this stuff as I'll be playing a Feral Gnasher with the Grab ability soon.