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I'm running the Shattered Star Adventure Path, and one of the players has just come back do the game (after having his archer die) with a Synthesis Summoner.
We're at level 10. He's got 35 AC, so nothing hits him. He's got 5 attacks doing about 90 HP of damage a round. He's got all good saves, so it's iffy to land a spell on him.
I'm reading through the rest of this book in the Adventure Path, and there's basically nothing in the book that has any serious chance of affecting him.
Are my only options to tell him to roll a different character, rewrite the entire Adventure Path specifically around his character, or cancel the game?
I trusted that Paizo playtested and balanced their rules; I'm really disappointed at how badly designed most of this stuff is.
With a synthesist it is hard not to seem obcene at level 10. I suggest you ask him to reroll if it is problematic.
Might try just taking your concern to the player the same way you've laid it out here.
Unless s/he is completely unwilling to take your concerns onboard and work with you on a redesign that makes the character less of a scenario breaker, then a new character may be the way to go.
If my DM came to me with the concern that my character was going to unbalance the game so much that they could solo a module and make the other players characters into useless sidekicks, I'd be happy to nerf a build in the name of group fun.
Rewriting the AP just trades one problem for another, as it then leaves the rest of the party underpowered. Just my 2cp.
The way I see it, there is no character that a DM can't handle. You have the ability to spawn infinite balors. He doesn't.
Usually the real issue at hand in these situations is the rest of the party. Are they even close to his power? This is a problem because if you balance an adventure to challenge the god-tier character than the rest will be flattened or feel worthless. That's no bueno.
Ask him to make a character that fits the power level of the party as a whole. That will create a more enjoyable play experience for everyone.
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Can we see the stats for your player's character?
Most summoner issues actually come from misunderstandings of how the rules work. It's easy to make powerful characters when you use illegal builds.
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This is not obscene by any stretch. This is a synthesis summoner. Also, if the player was pulling punches in their previous build then they may equate that with the reason that character died.
It kind of difficult to kill a character and then be upset that the one which replaced it is better.
You don't need to change anything.
Working as intended.
If the Synthesist is too much to kill then kill his allies, attack while he is asleep.
Remember, Synthesists MUST spend 10 rounds--unless otherwise specified--to summon the eidolon fursuit.
It's not unreasonable that you expected a balanced class from the main books. It's unfortunate though that you didn't check the forums first on this class, because as I'm sure you're aware now, its a "what the hell where they thinking?" class. Same goes for the Master Summoner and maybe other summoner archetypes. My guess is he's likely cheesed this class for all its worth and now you have a monster on your hands.
If he's loving he has a super character as many players do, I'd talk to him and direct him to the forums where he can see that you aren't being mean to him and it is indeed a problem class. Also tell him its going to severely affect the game for you and the other players as he breezes through encounters. My suggestion is switch him to a standard Summoner (let him adjust his stats as needed) and he gets his Cha (not 3+ Cha) for summons. This should bring balance back to the game
Depending on your confidence in game balance you could just try to tweak his Synth Summoner with him so its less monstrous
Really? Cheesed out? 90dpr and 35ac at 10th level? God help us all if someone plays a power-attacking two-handed crit-fishing fighter with a falchion. God really help us at 11th when he gets that 3rd attack.
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That 35 AC is a little higher than usual, but the DPR seems right around normal to me. I'm pretty sure I could build a vanilla paladin who could match it and have better saves to boot. A barbarian would have a lower AC, but deal more damage and probably have comparable saves.
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You don't need to change anything.
Working as intended.
If the Synthesist is too much to kill then kill his allies, attack while he is asleep.
Remember, Synthesists MUST spend 10 rounds--unless otherwise specified--to summon the eidolon fursuit.
Worst suggestion ever. Don't punish a problem player by actually punishing everyone else and making him feel smart for playing an OP char and being the only one surviving.
Worst suggestion ever. Don't punish a problem player by actually punishing everyone else and making him feel smart for playing an OP char and being the only one surviving.You don't need to change anything.
Working as intended.
If the Synthesist is too much to kill then kill his allies, attack while he is asleep.
Remember, Synthesists MUST spend 10 rounds--unless otherwise specified--to summon the eidolon fursuit.
Incorrect. The party gets attacked by monsters. The monsters all attack the closest person. If the Synth doesn't take damage due to having super-high AC then the monsters would naturally go after easier prey.
Animals go after the weakest target, and therefore monsters would as well.Sentient enemies, such as humans, might send summoned monsters in first or lackys. They are going to do everything they can to avoid the one who massacres everything and go after the weak members so they can force the party to surrender or watch one of their allies die.
Imagine if your Wizard was quickly knocked out and the party was given a choice: Throw down your weapons, or your friend dies.
What do the other players do?
As a GM you should N-E-V-E-R only go after the super-duper-mega-tank-of-DOOM. If you attack while the party is asleep then when the call goes out that they're under attack we find out what the rest of the party is like. You, as a DM, get to see what the party is like without their SDMToDoom. It isn't the "worst suggestion ever" it is the best suggestion ever.
Also, if the rest of the party dies then there is no one to protect the Synthesist. The bandits might just follow him around until he eventually has to go asleep and then BOOM! His summons might work to save him, but I doubt it.
The point of random encounters are to be random. Roll 1d4, 1 night, 2 morning, 3 afternoon, 4 evening. One of the keystones of encounters is to have at least as many monsters as there are PCs. Otherwise you end up with "DPR CLASSES ARE BROKEN SYNDROME."
People complain about this or that class, but the problem is with how they are building their encounters, not the class itself.
Furthermore, once a regular summoner gets a Ring of Invisibility the Synthesist becomes FAR inferior since the summoner can give the Eidolon HP to keep it alive just like the Synth, but worse the regular summoner can spam eidolon healing spells each round to make it so the eidolon will never die. Ever. It can even grapple your big-bad and jump off a cliff. Then, unsummon and your BBEG falls to his death.
Not to mention that there's a spell that lets them summon it in 1 round...
Only 1 summon monster a round. The average synth has poured all his money into making his eidolon the most dangerous and kitted out monster possible. In other words: that one summon monster spell a round is literally all he has. A quick grapple = 1 dead synth.
If that doesn't work for you then make him think he is being attacked so he summons a monster, then run off. When he goes to sleep again rinse and repeat until he has nothing left.Creativity. Intelligent monsters are going to use it.
@Taku Ooku Nin: For a person commenting so confidently about synthesists, you sure do seem to lack knowledge of the puzzle piece that completes their overpowered picture:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/summonEidolon.html#_summ on-eidolon
Also, you can only have an encounter at night so often otherwise the other characters will die.
There's no in game solution. You have to resolve the problem of an overpowered summoner in real life. Personally, if I was running an OP character, is love to hear from the GM that I win, and then is happily roll a new guy.
And--I completely disagree with you. The party only needs 8 hours of sleep a night, and it does not need to be consecutive. Wake up, fight encounter, go to bed.
SUMMON EIDOLON
School conjuration (summoning); Level summoner 2
Components V, S, M (a silver coin)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one eidolon
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon. Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.
So evidently AFTER the surprise round the monsters just stand there for the first round where the Synth can actually act. Oh, lets just stand here. Lets not attack the Summoner with crappy AC so he can complete his spell.
Unless your monsters all decide to go to sleep after the surprise round they summoner should NEVER get this spell off unless he has a few summoned monsters out first.
He can quicken it when he gets level 6 spells, but by that point he should start being marginalized. Sure, he is powerful and stuff, but so is that enemy who spams SAVE OR DIE spells each round.
So, again, what is your point?
The above is so wrong in so many places you might as well have said the sky was green. I don't even know where to start that this is all I can say
What is to say that in some cultures and languages it IS green? In some languages around the world the name for green and blue are the same. Hence, yes, the sky [is] green.
Mwha! MWHAHA!
Ask the player to reroll a regular summoner.
It's technically stronger than Synth summoner, but it creates 2 killable characters instead of one unkillable character.
(Seperated Eidolan has a bad will save, Summoner has bad fort save and lower HP)
Ask the player to reroll a regular summoner.
It's technically stronger than Synth summoner, but it creates 2 killable characters instead of one unkillable character.
(Seperated Eidolan has a bad will save, Summoner has bad fort save and lower HP)
Ahem. Ever heard of a Ring of Invisibility? There is literally nothing to stop him from spamming it to be invisible all day long and healing the eidolon does not remove invisibility. Your advice is literally just making it worse unless the GM sends stuff that can see through invisibility.
You should totally just send an army of harpies at the synth. Harpies everywhere. After the synth is "captivated," whatever the hell that is, the other harpies can just grind against him until the stench, sweat, and eventual non-lethal damage of parts of his body being rubbed too harshly renders him unconscious.
He'll smell so bad the Eidolon will probably refuse to be resummoned because, Oh GOD harpies stink!
Furthermore, just to point this out, the APs are all intended to be beatable by a non-optimized role-playing party of a Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, and Fighter.
The Iconic party, one might say. This means any optimized group will rip it into tiny pieces.
One persons obscene is another persons character concept. That said however,if it is ruining the fun,talk to the player.
As has been mentioned, this is likely a reaction to his Archer dying. Let him have his fun for a few sessions, then he might miss the semblance of challenge. Or he might enjoy curbstomping things. Whatever's fun.
It's no coincidence that synth summoners are banned in PFS. totally broken.
Yep pretty much this. The only option is to tell him to replace the character. This entire class is not worth the headache for not just the DM but the other players as well.
I personally like the synthesist summoner, not for it's power level, but for it's flavor. That being said, it's pretty easy to turn one of them into a behemoth of a tank that can dish out incredible damage with impunity. However, dealing with one is not impossible. Add in more attacks that target touch AC; the armor boosts they get upon level up is their choice of natural or Armor, neither of which add to touch. Chances are, he's also using melee attack to tear enemies to shreds, which means a gunslinger (or a gunslinger/ninja using some invisibility tricks) can keep distance and fire at him for a decent amount of damage. Summon monster is a way to do some area denial. Even if their attacks aren't likely to hit, they still distract and can offer their own spells. DR on enemies is killer to the standard synth since most of their firepower comes from hitting with numerous amounts of natural weapons. Furthermore, ways of preventing full attacks will cut down on the damage output as well. I would talk to the player before just outright banning the character. Since I don't know anything about the player, I'm going to presume they are at least reasonable can be convinced to dial the character back. Don't just be a dick to him and punish him for designing a character that ended up being really effective, it's not fun for anyone involved.
Ahem. Ever heard of a Ring of Invisibility? There is literally nothing to stop him from spamming it to be invisible all day long and healing the eidolon does not remove invisibility. Your advice is literally just making it worse unless the GM sends stuff that can see through invisibility.Ask the player to reroll a regular summoner.
It's technically stronger than Synth summoner, but it creates 2 killable characters instead of one unkillable character.
(Seperated Eidolan has a bad will save, Summoner has bad fort save and lower HP)
Except for the part where them being seperated allows them to be hurt?
As it is now the character has all good saves, high save stats, high HP, and high AC. In other words they are a superman brick. They also do good damage, so unlike a sword and board fighter, you can't ignore him and focus the group.
By seperating them you allow
1. The player to continue having fun with the class they chose
2. Create 2 targets with actual weaknesses. The Eidolan having bad will saves, lower AC, and lower HP. The summoner having bad HP, fort, reflex, AC, ect.
3. By having more weaknesses a wider variety of enemies can deal with the player. How do players usually deal with invisible people with bad fort saves? See invisibility (common at 10th) and spells targeting fort saves. Also lots of monsters have blindsight, see invis, scent, greater scent.
Why did you consider healing a good option? What good will healing 25ish hp a round do when an enemy hits for 40 on average per attack?
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I've actually played a Synthesist Summoner...and it is a bit problematic, not because its better than a Paladin or Barbarian at straight damage (it isn't), but because it is on par, and it combines that level of straight combat prowess with 6 level Spellcasting that gets many spells 1 to 3 levels early.
That's...not a good combination.
But the class is almost secondary here, the problem is that the player built a character at a vastly different level of optimization than the other PCs...and that's an OOC problem, and should be handled OOC by talking to the guy.
35 AC is very doable on a 10th level Eidolon...but it's also very focused. That's seriously approaching the max you can have (well, depending on magic items). Asking him to tone it down a notch and buy some more flavor abilities instead seems reasonable.
Ahem. Ever heard of a Ring of Invisibility? There is literally nothing to stop him from spamming it to be invisible all day long and healing the eidolon does not remove invisibility. Your advice is literally just making it worse unless the GM sends stuff that can see through invisibility.Ask the player to reroll a regular summoner.
It's technically stronger than Synth summoner, but it creates 2 killable characters instead of one unkillable character.
(Seperated Eidolan has a bad will save, Summoner has bad fort save and lower HP)
Except for the part where them being seperated allows them to be hurt?
As it is now the character has all good saves, high save stats, high HP, and high AC. In other words they are a superman brick. They also do good damage, so unlike a sword and board fighter, you can't ignore him and focus the group.
By seperating them you allow
1. The player to continue having fun with the class they chose
2. Create 2 targets with actual weaknesses. The Eidolan having bad will saves, lower AC, and lower HP. The summoner having bad HP, fort, reflex, AC, ect.
3. By having more weaknesses a wider variety of enemies can deal with the player. How do players usually deal with invisible people with bad fort saves? See invisibility (common at 10th) and spells targeting fort saves. Also lots of monsters have blindsight, see invis, scent, greater scent.Why did you consider healing a good option? What good will healing 25ish hp a round do when an enemy hits for 40 on average per attack?
Simple, it is in comparison to the straight synthesist. One can be invisible and heal, the other cannot. If we want to go "super safe" then give the summoner flight and invisibility.
The point is that the monster is going to die before it kills the eidolon. The only hope one has of destroying the eidolon is to power through all of its HP and all of the summoner's HP.The sound is that the OP thinks powering through is a good idea, and fighting the "superman brick" is a good idea instead of attacking the entire party.
In my campaigns everyone is constantly attacked. Wizards with 12 AC are going to get beaten down, knocked unconscious, and then used to force the rest of the party to surrender or watch their ally die.
In fact, there should always be at least as many enemies as there are PCs to even out Action Economy, since the side that has more has a tendency to win, but not every DM knows that.
Attack EVERYONE not SOMEONE. The super beat-stick of godliness is great so long as he has a party.
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I'm just sitting here wondering why 35 AC at level 10 is "obscene".
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The Eidolan is an Outsider. A villain with spellcasting can Dismiss it.
The issue with most classes is that they peak at different levels.
By "Peak" I don't mean they hit their most powerful point, I mean they hit their most powerful point when compared the the campaign, the enemies they are facing, and compared to their fellow party members.
Fighters peak really early and start to drop off for example.
Full casters peak much later, and Sorcerers and Wizards don't really have a real peak as they just keep getting better and better.
Synthesis Summoners peak at about level 9-10.
At this point, they are the most powerful they will be when compared to everything else leveling around them.
After this point, their increases in powerlevel aren't as incrementally unbalancing as they are during the 6-10 levels.
So, the good news is there is light at the end of the tunnel.
I'd suggest you try the dismissal thing. It's as easy spell for a villain to have level 10 or 11 and it shuts of the Eidolan.
Now I wouldn't suggest doing this on a regular basis, because you make the player feel their their character is useless if you just shut him down all the time.
It's a balancing act.
I'm currently running a game with a Sacred Shield Paladin in it, and his AC can hit well over 40 against a single evil target (like most Bosses of chapters) and he's only level 9.
So I feel your pain, but the answer to him is even more simple...combat maneuvers rule his world.
No PC is invincible, and the NPCs at your disposal are often far more capable then you initially give them credit for. They have all sorts of abilities that aren't explicitly written on their sheet, but are instead implied as things anyone can do. The problem with running such things is that we rarely run NPCs as well as we would our own sheets...just takes practice.
Summoner are just not woth the DM effort IMHO.
I'm just sitting here wondering why 35 AC at level 10 is "obscene".
Exactly what I was thinking. With just a few extra levels my character will have way more than that, with Regeneration to boot. Bolgrim, the Druid Stalwart Defender
By the gods, the way you deal with a summoner is to attack everyone in the party at once. Stop making crappy encounters and then wondering why the class that is built to massacre crappy encounters is doing its job. The Synthesist SUCKS when compared to other classes. Seriously! It is complete trash! Complete and utter trash!
The reasons for this are numerous, but it really just revolves around the summoner being a "really crappy bard with a beat-stick minion".
If you want obscene powergaming then woe and behold the EK who uses magic lineage to make Shocking Grasp stupidly good, then have a ton of spell-storing weapons to pump those huge damage bursts into your monsters.
Synthesists are not as bad as people claim they are. Summoners are not as bad as people claim they are. If you didn't make crap encounters then you wouldn't be complaining.
I'd have to do some digging around, but I've seen (and made my own build) of a druid/monk who uses some combination of feats to pump out 150-200 points of DPR around that level, not to mention the AC, the saves, and the not quite as powerful self heals.
Not to mention it is possible to have untouchable AC with an oracle by that level.
Ahh, the dreams of adding your CHA to your AC 4 times, and then being able to wear armor to make it even better so long as you can glamer it.
I'd have to do some digging around, but I've seen (and made my own build) of a druid/monk who uses some combination of feats to pump out 150-200 points of DPR around that level, not to mention the AC, the saves, and the not quite as powerful self heals.
does this involve the cave druid in crystal ooze form flurrying with their 4d8 18-20 crit natural weapon that has the entangle effect?
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Ahem. Ever heard of a Ring of Invisibility? There is literally nothing to stop him from spamming it to be invisible all day long and healing the eidolon does not remove invisibility. Your advice is literally just making it worse unless the GM sends stuff that can see through invisibility.Ask the player to reroll a regular summoner.
It's technically stronger than Synth summoner, but it creates 2 killable characters instead of one unkillable character.
(Seperated Eidolan has a bad will save, Summoner has bad fort save and lower HP)
Except for the part where them being seperated allows them to be hurt?
As it is now the character has all good saves, high save stats, high HP, and high AC. In other words they are a superman brick. They also do good damage, so unlike a sword and board fighter, you can't ignore him and focus the group.
By seperating them you allow
1. The player to continue having fun with the class they chose
2. Create 2 targets with actual weaknesses. The Eidolan having bad will saves, lower AC, and lower HP. The summoner having bad HP, fort, reflex, AC, ect.
3. By having more weaknesses a wider variety of enemies can deal with the player. How do players usually deal with invisible people with bad fort saves? See invisibility (common at 10th) and spells targeting fort saves. Also lots of monsters have blindsight, see invis, scent, greater scent.Why did you consider healing a good option? What good will healing 25ish hp a round do when an enemy hits for 40 on average per attack?
Simple, it is in comparison to the straight synthesist. One can be invisible and heal, the other cannot. If we want to go "super safe" then give the summoner flight and invisibility.
The point is that the monster is going to die before it kills the eidolon. The only hope one has of destroying the eidolon is to power through all of its HP and all of the summoner's HP.The sound is that the OP...
Why are you attacking HP? That is literally the LEAST effective method of beating an Eidolon. Why isn't the enemy Sorceror/wizard using Hold Monster to incapacitate it for X rounds? OR any other Will based spell?
So SUPPOSING the fight begins and the Summoner managed to already be invisible, so they don't notice the summoner here's how it should break down.
Wizard/cleric with high initiative (why wouldn't he have high initiative?)
casts either Mass Hold Person (wrecking most of your parties damage)
or Hold monster (Eidolan now useless because he needs 17ish or higher to beat that save.
Summoners initiative
Summoners actions: Oh **** I have no offensive power, guess I better heal my Eidolon whos taken no damage, but is out of the fight till I get lucky. Or I cast a spell targeting an enemy and become visible
Eidolons actions: Attempt to roll that 17 will save or if it was hold person mass, try to solo an encounter with no other beatsticks helping you.
A Synthesist summoner has NO BAD SAVES. They have good save progression on fort, will, and reflex. Not only that but they have High con, High dex, and decent wisdom. Spells are almost useless against them. They have High AC and can fly, so martials wont do s+!% to them without archery (High AC counters) or Gunslingers (a good counter) Finally they do good damage, so they cant be ignored.
COMPARATIVELY
A summoner and Eidolan separated each have specific and obvious weakness that most encounters account for. The Eidolan has traditional martial weaknesses, the Summoner has traditional caster weaknesses.
Changing the Synthesist into a regular summoner will actually allow the game to continue with encounters more like what the OP has been doing.
I'd have to do some digging around, but I've seen (and made my own build) of a druid/monk who uses some combination of feats to pump out 150-200 points of DPR around that level, not to mention the AC, the saves, and the not quite as powerful self heals.does this involve the cave druid in crystal ooze form flurrying with their 4d8 18-20 crit natural weapon that has the entangle effect?
No, but that's another good one. I was referring to the regular druid shaping into a hippopotamus behemoth with lockjaw pumping out the 4d8 per bite plus str & 1/2 and other magical bonuses.
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How do I handle Power Gaming?
I remind my players that anything they throw at me, I can do it at least 20 times worse. The rules are guidelines! BALORS FOR EVERYONE!
And by everyone, and mean for all of the PCs villains. The only balor that the PCs get is the one that's teleporting into their camp in the middle of the night while they're sleeping. In my experience the power gamers NEVER expect an ambush. Its uncanny.
@Taku
What build lets you add your charisma to your AC 4 times?!?
Also, if monsters have to ignore a party member because they can't hurt it and then attack the other party members, then realistically said monsters would just retreat....unless suicidal.
Why would they stick around fighting something that they can't hurt and is tearing through them just to hurt it's friends alittle more?
They should regroup and rethink their strategy.
I think too many GMs are afraid of having the enemies retreat, team up with other encounters and then attack the PCs again.
It makes for far more complex and challenging fights.
When PCs are being cracky for me, I just throw multiple encounters at once at them.