People can totally do this, but I suppose the still want to get they information the paid for.
For home games, there is no need to get bent out of shape really. Either axe it or house rule it until the errata is in place.Some details missing from a hex is what, at best, a tenth of a page in a 200 page book? If the book retails for $30, that's about 15 cents a page, or 1.5 cents for a tenth of a page.
We're making an issue out of two cents? Really? I know times are bad and the economy is horrible but come on. Is a two thousandth part of a $30 book really that big a deal? It's not like a video file where a missing piece will render the entire file unplayable. It's a VERY SMALL DETAIL in the entirety of the book. 99.95% of what you paid for is still there.
Do you also weigh your steaks at the restaurant to make sure there isn't a 0.05% variance from the listed weight?
Would it help if you got a refund for the 1.5 cents?
I am not that interested in withces, but from what other people comment in the FAQ thread there is were several hex with missing information.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm opening the thread again, now that it's not the weekend ...That fact that Sean took the time to post this amazingly frank and honest response speaks volumes about the kind of person he is, the kind of company Paizo is and the incredible amount of hard work and passion they all put in to making the products we all love.
It really feels like some people might want to spend a little less time complaining or being demanding and a little more time just saying ... Thank You
Thank you:)
As brought up earlier, there is a perception that FAQs are not being answered quickly enough or relatively low priority stuff is being addressed instead of serious problems like incomplete rules.
Who is responsible for this perception? Paizo. As anyone can tell you, it is the actions of a company that create perceptions of a company.
If the ice tomb hex had been addressed quickly, if not in play testing but at some short point after release, then this thread would not have existed. None of the ice tomb related posts would have been made. Its simple cause and effect.
But because this dragged on for more than two years, it helped to generate a perception that Paizo releases incomplete products and refuses to fix them. And here is the key point : It is irrelevant whether that is true, the only important thing is how many people believe it to be true.
Unfortunately Paizo's actions over a period of several years have helped to fuel this perception and that could easily have been avoided. I'm not sure how or why this is happening because its been standard practice in companies now to have someone in charge of making sure this doesnt happen, but paizo doesnt appear to have one. For example that October thread in the rules forum about ice tomb? That generated a lot of negativity towards Paizo. Why? Because nobody from Paizo came in to explain their position. So people assumed the worst : Paizo doesnt care, etc, etc.
I would like to point out a real life case study happening now. There is a game called Mechwarrior Online. Opinion of the game and the company in charge of it is overwhelmingly negative...the most common complaints that the developers refuse to address issues, refuse to communicate with their customers and are simply out to rip people off. There have also been dozens of negative articles written about the game/company on gaming sites. That obviously does not help their profitability, when someone goes on a website and askes "hey what do people think of this game?" and get mostly...
...well, I am fairly happy with them. If I do have a complaint, it's that I'd like to see (eventually) a streamlined version of the CRB, but that's far and away from both an effort and a sales standpoint.
Also, that Jacobs never completed the dinosaur-stomp paragon class that I bribed him to do, and which he promised after many drunken drinks at that bar where the kobolds dance the shimmy-shimmy. I don't understand. It had all the best abilities of druid, monk, shaman, wizard and a smattering of inquisitor, fighter, and barbarian, like gestalt but more so. Dinosaurs deserve this.
PS The bar was his idea.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let's be honest if it wasn't Ice Tomb someone would has looked for something else to flame about (probably monks and crane wing) so acting like Ice Tomb being fixed would have made the internet a wonderful lovable place is false.
Oh my god... this is still ongoing?
Amazing, simply amazing...
Some people have so much time on their hands, I'm jealous.
I see the same arguments and comments being rehashed and rephrased every so many posts.
It's being handled (and has been on the queue for quite some time). It seems to be a complex matter to solve (more so that the things fixed in a single post and five minutes). We have a guarantee (by SKR) that ALL faq's will be addressed evetually (or simply parked if no errata is needed)
So leave it be guys, seriously...
Thanks!
And SKR (and other Paizo posters): amazing amount of self-control in your posts here, I would have replied less eloquently and polite at some of the replies here.
| 19 people marked this as a favorite. |
Im not sure why i just wrote a long post explaining things that are taught in first stage business courses...the Paizo CEO should have a MBA and be aware of this...
She does. She also has decades of industry experience.
Do you have either?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure if this was being sarcastic, excuse me if it was.
A lot of people seem to have missed one thing : A product was published with incomplete rules. People want the rules clarified, and among them includes people who paid money for this product.
Now im genuinely confused as to why poeple think this is "entitled" in some way. Given that yes, people are entitled to a rulebook with complete, fully working rules, which they paid for.
If i were to sell you a maths textbook, and it has incomplete paragraphs and is missing math formulaes that should be in there, then wouldnt you be pretty annoyed? How would you, or others react in this situation? Likely take the book back for a refund or ask for clarification regarding the missing items.
It doesnt matter that anyone here can come up with a house rule for their game, thats honestly not important at all. Otherwise i would start selling partial PDFs on the paizo store with text like "[Insert name here] does [Insert house rule here] damage, if the target fails the save then it [insert house rule here]".
The point is that people paid for a product which they expected to be complete but it was not. And they asked nicely for more than 2 years for it to be fixed, but did not receive any response from any of the paizo staff at all. This was even brought up in the official errata thread and im pretty sure during playtesting.
The context here is important. Lets say that someone had brought this up and a week later complained...
Then return the book or find a way to recoup your losses. You issue has been addressed (the time delay and not the FAQ). It's been pointed out that they will get to it when they get to it. They are working on many different things at once, including other FAQ. Until then, make a ruling that works for your table and wait. They haven't forgotten. They aren't ignoring you. They are busy. No gaming product will be perfect or complete when it's sent out. Errors happen. I have never seen any gaming product be error free. We used to have to just make it up as we went along. That's how 1st edition D&D was. The rules didn't cover enough. Often we had things like damage is 3-12. Is that 3d4? Is it 1d10+2? No one knew. It was more fun when it didn't fit any standard die configuration. So we just adapted. Adapt and move on until they get to your request. Your game will be better for it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Im not sure why i just wrote a long post explaining things that are taught in first stage business courses...the Paizo CEO should have a MBA and be aware of this...She does. She also has decades of industry experience.
Do you have either?
Don't show Dorian his painting! That's not fair...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I find it Ironic that people have wasted 5 pages of forum space in trying to explain reality to a troll..
Im not sure why i just wrote a long post explaining things that are taught in first stage business courses...the Paizo CEO should have a MBA and be aware of this...She does. She also has decades of industry experience.
Do you have either?
Oh come on now! there is no reason to bag on Lisa! she is cool beans! and has the best avatar!
Im not sure why i just wrote a long post explaining things that are taught in first stage business courses...the Paizo CEO should have a MBA and be aware of this...She does. She also has decades of industry experience.
Do you have either?
Great point. As I said earlier: Having been a dev I know something that a lot of posters here don't- it's a LOT of freaken very hard work with rather low pay. I always love it when someone who has never published a page in their life comes here and assumes they can do it oh so much better than the professionals. <g>
Note that I know what you guys (well, not you anymore Ross, but still) have to go thru. Thus, I do ask a few questions, I do disagree at times* and point out things that could be fixed**- but I am also positive, upbeat and supportive.
Now, it's not impossible that Ice Tomb slipped their minds. Devs are human too (well maybe not all of them... <g>) and a reminder thread would not have been out of line. But after this manure pile-on, well, guess what? they can't fix it now- if they do they are saying "well start a thread insulting us and we'll do what you want". So, those asking why it hasn't been fixed? Take a look in the mirror.
*Sean, you're still wrong about the corner case thing for reach weapons. There, I said it. ;-p
** I have two pending rules questions.
By the way, is it me, or is the OP (question) running at least three threads with the same arguments simultaneously...?
thread 1 I found by briefly looking at the OP's profile
and
thread 2 I found by briefly looking at the OP's profile
By the way, the OP is trying to make a point I think, judging from this quote from the latter thread:
As i mentioned in the last thread, spamming the forum with about 10 FAQ threads for one class ability is not very productive. But if Paizo REALLY wants us to do that, by all means, have someone from Paizo post here saying "yes go ahead make 10 threads for this hex, we will then look at it".
Guess he didn't wait for someone from Paizo to tell him to do so.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If i were to sell you a maths textbook, and it has incomplete paragraphs and is missing math formulaes that should be in there, then wouldnt you be pretty annoyed? How would you, or others react in this situation? Likely take the book back for a refund or ask for clarification regarding the missing items.
Math textbooks have mistakes all the time. Most of the time it's small things (referring to a problem in text that was deleted in a later edition) but I've seen some pretty glaring omissions. For example, one undergraduate text on differential equations had mistakes in how it defined the linear independence of functions.
Also, math textbooks are written about topics that have been settled for decades, if not centuries, as part of a rigorously constructed, narrowly defined system of rules. If Paizo used the same care in crafting its rulesets what you'd be left with would be about as fun to play with as a math book.
Okay, I looove reading math text books but I realize that not everyone feels the same way. Certainly if Paizo thought that was the case they'd be publishing math textbooks written in a narrative style with awesome artwork and maps.
Actually - if any Paizo devs are reading this I have a great idea for an educational game called "Mathfinder". It would be similar to Pathfinder but you can only gain experience by solving progressively harder math problems.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It would have been the perfect opportunity for someone from Paizo, not necessarily a designer, someone from customer service or PR, to come in and say something like "Thanks for the heads up, we will forward this to the team in charge.". That simple one sentence would have generated lots of goodwill for Paizo, and if a FAQ got released a few weeks later, that would have been even better. People all over the net, not just the Paizo forums but on other RPG related websites, would have been going "Wow, look at this, someone from Paizo posted in this thread and we got a FAQ for it shortly after, they really do care!".
Well, no. It's be pointed out several times in this thread that FAQs are being answered as quickly as they can be. The Design Team isn't sitting around eating Bonbons all day. They are busy people. So, given that the FAQ queue is backed up, and will be for the foreseeable future, would you really be happier if someone had said two years ago "Thanks for the heads up, we will forward this to the team in charge", and there was still no FAQ? Or would this thread just be titled 'What does the Design Team do all day? I was promised an answer two years ago!'
You claim to be upset about communication, but what you're asking for are reassuring platitudes that are misleading to the point of being lies. That makes the problem worse in the long run.
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
Then let me ask : Since this question has been asked multiple times for more than two years but never answered, addressed or acknowledged in any way for paizo staff, are you implying that they were not polite enough to receive a response?
You're completely ignoring the (literally) hundreds of other FAQ questions the design team has answered in that time period. Perhaps you need to step away from the computer and get some perspective about why you're so upset you're not getting the one thing you want, why you haven't gotten it now, and why all the other questions got answered before yours.
You keep asking "why are these other questions more important than my question?" Which means you are stating "I think everyone else's questions are less important than my question."
To be fair we've made Question's question more important than everyone else's by spending so much time and effort responding to it. Personally, I thought you did the right thing by locking this thread during the weekend.
Also, let me know what you think of that Mathfinder idea - you guys are figuratively sitting on an edutainment gold mine.
Also, let me know what you think of that Mathfinder idea - you guys are figuratively sitting on an edutainment gold mine.
Playing the game does require math...and the problems get more complicated as you level up...
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ice Tomb lasts until this thread stops.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also, let me know what you think of that Mathfinder idea - you guys are figuratively sitting on an edutainment gold mine.Playing the game does require math...and the problems get more complicated as you level up...
That sounds remarkably like my education...apparently I reached high enough level to create "encounters".
Kids these days and their fancy graphing calculators. Me and my party--we only had pencils and paper...graph paper if the DM...teacher was being nice that day.
Also, let me know what you think of that Mathfinder idea - you guys are figuratively sitting on an edutainment gold mine.Playing the game does require math...and the problems get more complicated as you level up...That sounds remarkably like my education...apparently I reached high enough level to create "encounters".
Kids these days and their fancy graphing calculators. Me and my party--we only had pencils and paper...graph paper if the DM...teacher was being nice that day.
PAPER, you got paper?! We had rocks.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I got scissors!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also, let me know what you think of that Mathfinder idea - you guys are figuratively sitting on an edutainment gold mine.Playing the game does require math...and the problems get more complicated as you level up...
But it's all math that a grade schooler could do.
I hear about the supposed class tiers in great detail on the forums - what if the leveling the "high tier" classes required substantially more difficult math problems? Instead of threads with thousands of posts complaining about the hypothetical caster v. martial disparity you'd see threads asking for help in solving systems of linear first order differential equations so someone's wizard can get access to 8th level spells.
Also, it would open up entirely new avenues for books like Statistics Revisited, Inner Sea Mathematics, and Induction Proofs Unleashed.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also, let me know what you think of that Mathfinder idea - you guys are figuratively sitting on an edutainment gold mine.Playing the game does require math...and the problems get more complicated as you level up...But it's all math that a grade schooler could do.
I hear about the supposed class tiers in great detail on the forums - what if the leveling the "high tier" classes required substantially more difficult math problems? Instead of threads with thousands of posts complaining about the hypothetical caster v. martial disparity you'd see threads asking for help in solving systems of linear first order differential equations so someone's wizard can get access to 8th level spells.
Also, it would open up entirely new avenues for books like Statistics Revisited, Inner Sea Mathematics, and Induction Proofs Unleashed.
Let us not ignore the possibilities of
- Algebra, Kingdom of Headaches- Manual of the Hyperplanes
- The Epic Logarithmic Level Handbook
and of course that classic adventure, Ten to the Power of Seventeen Squared Coins for a Kingdom.
That sounds remarkably like my education...apparently I reached high enough level to create "encounters".
Just the other day the g/f and I were joking about how Ph.D. advisors are the original Dungeon Masters.
Spock!
I got scissors!
Hah! Rocks beat scissors!
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
