My group has just had our second session with a new GM, who is very used to playing 3.5, and hasn't really put too much effort into learning Pathfinder. I believe this issue translates the same in 3.5, but I am no expert on these game mechanics, since I am not, nor ever have been a GM. I hope someone can enlighten me, and allow me to explain how things work properly to him for the future.
Here is the situation that happened, and I hope someone can help figure out the correct solution, and beyond that, provide me with an easy way to help him understand how things work.
My character who we'll call Bob, got into an argument with an NPC who we'll call Andy. Andy and Bob are allies, but Andy knows that the PC known as Andy can get rough at times. Bob Approaches Andy, and attempts to slap him, and then all hell breaks loose.
The GM explains that since Bob doesn't have Improved UA, that Andy gets to react with an AoO, but also admits that Andy doesn't have Combat reflexes. The slap was done for roll playing purposes, but now it has become a strong issue of becoming a heated battle apparently from the GMs NPC reaction.
The group tries to explain that without Combat Reflexes, or Uncanny Dodge, that Andy cannot make the AoO. The GM stands his ground saying that Unarmed attacks provoke, and that it will provoke an AoO. This is true, but Andy needs to be aware of the danger of Bobs slap, right?
The party tries to explain that Bob would essentially get a surprise round, which would catch Andy flat-footed, then normal initiative order would proceed accordingly for what players and NPC's wanted to do. The GM says that since Andy knew Bob was there, that he was "Aware", but we explain that it's about acting in combat, and being aware that danger is present, which the GM disagrees.
The argument among us becomes the GM being asked if the NPC was already having a readied attack expecting or wanting to get into combat, which we never got a clear answer. Above all, Bob was going to unarmed slap Andy, while Andy drew his lethal weapon, and was about to take a brutal swing at Bob.
Who was right here? Does Bob's slap count as a surprise round, which makes Andy flat-footed and unable to react?
Based on how I am reading this:
If tensions are escalating and Bob wants to slap Andy it would be an initiative roll since both parties are 'aware'.
If Bob wins, he's slapped Andy before he can react (not counting combat reflexes or uncanny dodge). If Andy wins initiative, he will be able to act as he sees fit (including being able to make AoO if necessary), and then Bob will be able to pursue what actions he wants to do. (Continue for the slap, de-escalate, or something else entirely). If Bob, still wants to slap (unarmed strike) then Andy would get an AoO
Respectfully,
--Bacon
Until you have acted in initiative you are considered flat-footed (even if you are clearly facing the enemy and know he's there) unless you have something like Uncanny Dodge. You normally cannot make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed. Therefore the slap would not provoke.
A) I like Bob already.
B) Unless you can make the case that Andy was unaware that Bob *was* an opponent, and your GM is willing to accept the idea that this is equivalent to Andy being "unaware of an opponent", then I'd say the GM is correct. It sounds like you guys tried to make that case and the GM didn't buy it.
So Bobs unarmed attack provokes an AoO.
However, unless Andy has Quickdraw and can draw as a free action, or some ability that makes his unarmed strikes into weapons, he doesn't get to make an AoO with a weapon. He's considered unarmed until he draws. Unarmed characters can't make an AoO because they don't threaten a square.
In that case Bobs gets to attempt his slap, and then you roll initiative.
If I were GM in this situation I'd have rolled perception for Andy, and if he passed it I'd call for initiative rolls, otherwise I'd let Bob roll for the slap as if Andy were flat-footed.
(Note: I may have this wrong. Surely someone more knowledgeable will correct me gently if that is the case.)
It was questionable about Andy and his weapon being drawn. The GM seems to not keep track about people just casually having their weapons out all the time. The nature of the conversation was an argument, where Bob got heated to the point to approach Andy to preform the slap. It is extremely unlikely for Andy to have perceived Bob as a threat, especially since he approached unarmed, and no threatening words were exchanged.
I do like the idea of sense motive to solve a lot of this.
Like, I'm very aware of the initiative rules, and I personally tried to reference as many things as I possibly could, but the GM gets bent out of shape over wording. He applies "awareness" incorrectly, by simply believing that if you see your "enemy", then you cannot be subjected to a surprise round. I made an example of some dudes just chilling out, and then one just casually swings at him with a greatsword. It's just some unexpected surprise that the other player can't react to, thus being flat-footed. The GM simply said that the other was "aware" and initiative would just be rolled. Like, if the first guy wins before the swing even happens, what is he going to do? Continue to not know he is being attacked, for some unexplained reason, he's on his toes ready to duck and dodge?
Now I just need to trust that the GM makes a fair DC for such a matter for a sense motive or a perception check.
...The nature of the conversation was an argument, where Bob got heated to the point to approach Andy to preform the slap.
It is extremely unlikely for Andy to have perceived Bob as a threat, especially since he approached unarmed, and no threatening words were exchanged.
Those two things seem contradictory, to me.
Based solely on these statements, I'd probably have ruled Andy to be aware of Bob as a threat.
If I'm having a heated argument with somebody and they roll up on me like that I'd be on the defensive, even if we were both unarmed. You can easily perceive a threat without someone actually telling you they plan to smack you one.
Bob is still my kind of people though.
Be aware that there is a difference between an argument, and an heated argument. Bob got heated to the point that he wanted to casually stroll over and smack this moron, but before, there wasn't anything heated going on.
In all honesty, the GM has us struggling to escape an island, and we're surrounded by morons. Bob was trying to see who would be willing to go attempt to find equipment in our sunken boat, while Andy kept interrupting by saying, "I'm not going to swim to the boat!". Bob, in a very exhausting fashion, tried many times to thoroughly explain to Andy, that he is not being asked to go, nor does anyone want him to go. In fact, everyone, including Bob, know that Andy is more useful on land, than in the wat-
"I'M NOT GOING IN THE WATER!" - Andy
*Stayin' Alive music plays, and Bob struts over to deliver the pimp slap*
Gotcha.
Based on how I am reading this:
If tensions are escalating and Bob wants to slap Andy it would be an initiative roll since both parties are 'aware'.
If Bob wins, he's slapped Andy before he can react (not counting combat reflexes or uncanny dodge). If Andy wins initiative, he will be able to act as he sees fit (including being able to make AoO if necessary), and then Bob will be able to pursue what actions he wants to do. (Continue for the slap, de-escalate, or something else entirely). If Bob, still wants to slap (unarmed strike) then Andy would get an AoO
Respectfully,
--Bacon
Seconded.