Why choose wizard?

[Athaleon]

Damian Magecraft wrote:

The SAD v MAD has some merit...
But honestly? I have always worked under the assumption that all classes are MAD (STR for CMB, DEX for AC, etc...)

Some more than others. Wizards among all classes are in almost the best position when it comes to stat allocation. They can dump Strength and Charisma, and get by with middling values in all other stats, as long as they have a fairly high Intelligence. You can even use Int for UMD and social skills these days.

Meanwhile, the Sorcerer is already taking a hit just for being a Charisma-based class. Anyone who isn't using Charisma for class features can dump it to the ground with no real drawbacks. But if the Sorcerer dumps Int, he's tanking his skill ranks and Spellcraft. You can switch Cha for Wis or Int, but doing so downgrades your class features, and Sorcerer Bloodlines are already by and large worse than Wizard Schools. Claws on a full arcane caster! Ray attacks for piddling damage! Those can't hold a candle to what Divination (Foresight), Evocation (Admixture), Conjuration (Teleportation), or Elemental (Air or Void) gets. Don't even get me started on the bonus feat lists.

Arcane is the best and most highly recommended Bloodline for a reason: It makes the Sorcerer a little more like a Wizard.

[Nearyn]

Very well, I'll assist you:

Here is my original input to your question. How about you start there?

-Nearyn

[Marthkus]

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nearyn wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

So what what other reasons are there

Other reasons have been provided, several times over the past 6 pages. Please go back and read through those, before asking people to post "other reasons" again.

-Nearyn

kinda hard to see them through all the noise of the tangent conversations on specific spell/feat/ability chain tricks for the journey to teh awesome...

Well, I'm done trying to convince you of anything.

If certain spells working a different way between classes is not a valid concern when comparing fullcasters, Idk what is.

Bloodline and schools powers are mainly esoteric and have very little to do with which class is better.

[Cardinal Chunder]

So essentially this thread boils down to "Wizards suck compared to Sorcerers if the expected rules governing them in the CRB and supplements are ignored/changed by the GM".

I'm looking forward to the "Fighters are worse martial characters than Sorcerers because in my House Rules they can't wear armour and have d4hps per level." thread.

[Marthkus]

Cardinal Chunder wrote:

So essentially this thread boils down to "Wizards suck compared to Sorcerers if the expected rules governing them in the CRB and supplements are ignored/changed by the GM".

I'm looking forward to the "Fighters are worse martial characters than Sorcerers because in my House Rules they can't wear armour and have d4hps per level." thread.

Actually a sorcerer + magic jar + binding 31 strength huge demon(Glabrezu or Nalfeshnee) + transformation = better fighter at high levels.

[TriOmegaZero]

Marthkus wrote:

MYTHIC TOZ wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Not everyone plays in Golarion.

What does that have to do with anything?

Assuming CRB rules mean Golarion setting.

Therefore without that setting, such magic item rarity rules can be avoided.

Well, if we're going to ignore the rules for magic item availability, there there isn't any way to determine access.

[Marthkus]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Marthkus wrote:

MYTHIC TOZ wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Not everyone plays in Golarion.

What does that have to do with anything?

Assuming CRB rules mean Golarion setting.

Therefore without that setting, such magic item rarity rules can be avoided.

Well, if we're going to ignore the rules for magic item availability, then there isn't any way to determine access.

Exactly.

Which means martials are also beyond awful.
This means that only divine and spont casters, and summon spell "martials" are viable for play.

Unless magic item availability isn't being applied fairly to all classes.

[Avh]

Damian Magecraft wrote:

phantom1592 wrote:

1) It would depend a LOT on the AP we were playing... but not letting the wizard collect scrolls and loot

But if the question is why wizard over sorcerer... the answer is more spells and SAD. If people don't play that way in their games... then yeah, sorcerer is probably better.

Ok so we have established that Wizards are supposed to have more spells than Sorcerers... This is not always the case however (in my region anyway). So what what other reasons are there?

You want official rules ? Rules from the CRB explaining how many spells a wizard can expect to learn ?

Go to Magic Item rules, "Purchasing Magic items" part.

This part explains what is supposed to be sold in each settlement depending on the size of that settlement. This also expects that under a stated value an item has 75% of being available for sale in this settlement.

Here is the quote :

CRB wrote:

Magic items are valuable, and most major cities have at least one or two purveyors of magic items, from a simple potion merchant to a weapon smith that specializes in magic swords. Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town.

The following guidelines are presented to help GMs determine what items are available in a given community. These guidelines assume a setting with an average level of magic. Some cities might deviate wildly from these baselines, subject to GM discretion. The GM should keep a list of what items are available from each merchant and should replenish the stocks on occasion to represent new acquisitions.

The number and types of magic items available in a community depend upon its size. Each community has a base value associated with it (see Table: Available Magic Items). There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community. In addition, the community has a number of other items for sale.

This means that you can find :

- 75% of 1st level and lower spells as scrolls in a thorp (50 base value => 1st level scroll costs 25gp).
- 75% of 2nd level and lower in a hamlet (200 base value => 2nd level scroll costs 150gp)
- 75% of 3rd level and lower in a village (500 base value => 3rd level scroll costs 375gp)
- 75% of 4th level and lower in a small town (1000 base value => 4th level scroll costs 700gp)
- 75% of 6th level and lower in a large town (2000 base value => 6th level scroll costs 1650gp)
- 75% of 9th level and lower in a small city (4000 base value => 9th level scroll costs 3825gp)

So as long as there is a small city in your world, and that you follow the expected rules of the game (whatever the world you're playing in), every scroll can be found and bought by adventurers.

Then you have the Wealth By Level to account for.

Amongst the treasure you will find, there will be scrolls (they are as common as potions), and it is likely that some of the one you will find aren't already in your spellbook. You will also find evil wizard's spellbook(s) eventually.
The rest can be bought with the gold you find/you get by selling items you find that aren't of your interest in any city you get to.

Moreover, when you get to a certain level, you can have a blessed book that reduces the cost to copy spells.
And when you get to level 9, you can get/sell items for the group (but also scrolls for your own interest) from all over the world in minutes.

Oh, and any wizard should take the "Fast Study discovery" at level 5. The flexibility you get from that feat combined to a great spellbook is huge.

[Kysune]

Regular Sorcerers are more OP than Stupid Wizard. That about sums it up. If the GM is running a low-magic game then the Sorcerer becomes a better candidate (but in all honesty the Sorcerer should just be banned in a low-magic setting imo). If it's not a low-magic campaign then your GM is screwing you over. Wizards can fill plenty of roles whereas Sorcerers typically boil down to Save or Suck & Blasters. (but not always, it's just harder not to with their small spell selection.)

On a separate note, Fighters are weaker when they have no arms.

[Ughbash]

Owly wrote:

Sure others can cast more powerful spells, but I've got metamagic feats too, and you have to roll twice to save your can from some of my magic. I can penetrate SR, and I've got an Amulet of Magecraft that allows me to substitute spells when needed. Half Elves with Paragon Surge? Pfft. *pats them on the head*. Good job, son. Now stand back.

Amulet of magecraft lets you sub spells for one school...

Quote:

Each silver link that makes up this heavy necklace represents a well-known concept of arcane theory. A universalist wizard who selects the necklace as his bonded object (which counts as an amulet) may choose one school of spells each day when he prepares spells. He then can use the necklace to spontaneously convert any prepared wizard spell of that school into any other wizard spell of that school he knows; the desired spell must be of the same level or lower than the prepared spell. For example, if the wizard chose “evocation” when he prepared his spells that morning, until the next time he prepares spells, he can spontaneously convert a prepared fireball into any other evocation wizard spell of 3rd level or lower that he knows.

Sorceror looks at your wizard and amulet "Oh you need to sub a transmutation spell? shame you set it for evocation today." Pats wizard on the head and paragon surges for whatever sorocerer/wizard spell he want.

Oracle comes up, "Oh you can only do sorceror/wizard spells? how quaint" paragon surges for any cleric/oracle/sorceror/wizard spell. Pats the sorceror on the head.

[Ughbash]

Kysune wrote:

On a separate note, Fighters are weaker when they have no arms.

Only minimally :)

[Kthulhu]

Damian Magecraft wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

And who determines what spells are available? The player or the GM?

The dice.

So the GM has no say what so ever to what is and is not available in his world and where?

Not everyone plays in Golarion.

What I've learned on these forums is that when people refer to "compromise" what they mean is that the GM must compromise his created world in order to bow to the whims of his players. ALWAYS.

[LazarX]

TOZ wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

And who determines what spells are available? The player or the GM?

The dice.

And who interprets the roll of the dice? Leaving everything to random rolls is the sign of a lazy GM.

[Kthulhu]

Marthkus wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Well, if we're going to ignore the rules for magic item availability, then there isn't any way to determine access.

Exactly.

Which means martials are also beyond awful.
This means that only divine and spont casters, and summon spell "martials" are viable for play.

Quote:

You know, there's a difference between "we don't use the guidelines for magic item availability" and "THERE ARE NO MAGIC ITEMS! MWAAA HAA HAAA!!!!!"

Marthkus wrote:

Unless magic item availability isn't being applied fairly to all classes.

Yeah, it's be horrible to nerf spellcasters and boost martials, since about 2/3 of all posts on the rules forums tend to be about how spellcasters are so much more powerful than martials.

Then again, with the crafting system, magic item availability and pricing ALREADY isn't applied equally to the classes. It's just that the imbalance becomes even more tilted towards spellcasters.

[LazarX]

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Look it is really simple...

I asked why would someone play a Wizard.
And I have gotten some very good reasons from many of the posters here.
This whole hang up on the "well they can potentially know every spell" is whole other issue.
I have stated I do not consider that a valid selling point since it is too much of a variable that rests squarely in the hands of the GM.

If all you want to do is harp on that or attack my stance on it (some of you through insults) rather than provide alternate reasons then you should probably just move on.

1. Bit of advice to you. Don't ever play Amber Diceless. It's the ultimate "Trust Your GM" game. And you seem to have some serious trust issues.

2. If you assume that your GM is working from a standard of malice, you've got serious problems in the way you approach your game. And while Pathfinder may not be Amber Diceless, a continual sense of mistrust between your and your GM is going to sour the experience for the whole group.

3. The main selling point of wizards is not that "they can learn every spell in the book." It's that unlike the sorcerer they can remake their spell list to suit a different strategy for the day. People who try to play their Sorcerers like wizards are asking for dissappointment. To get a sorcerer right, you need to settle for making a theme and working it.

4. If your question is why play a wizard over a socerer, you're asking the wrong thing. Both are very good classes to pursue, but they are two different paths that need to be walked differently.

[Ravingdork]

Damian Magecraft wrote:

But others seem to be working under the assumption that a Wizard can just pop down to the corner store and as long as he has the money he has an unlimited supply new spells regardless of the GMs plans or designs for the campaign world.

That IS the default assumption of the GAME. Anything else is clearly a house rule.

[LazarX]

Ravingdork wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

But others seem to be working under the assumption that a Wizard can just pop down to the corner store and as long as he has the money he has an unlimited supply new spells regardless of the GMs plans or designs for the campaign world.

That IS the default assumption of the GAME. Anything else is clearly a house rule.

As usual, Dork takes it a bit too far. The truth of the matter is between your two extremes, but he's a bit closer to it than you are. Now it could be that you're simply not making the effor you need to make. My wizards build up their substantial libraries by making contacts, joining wizards guilds and taking every opportunity he can get to swap spells with other wizards. While it's not true that every world needs to have the same level of availability to do so, your GM should give you SOME opportunities.... provided your character does the footwork to look for them.

[Marthkus]

Kthulhu wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

And who determines what spells are available? The player or the GM?

The dice.

So the GM has no say what so ever to what is and is not available in his world and where?

Not everyone plays in Golarion.

What I've learned on these forums is that when people refer to "compromise" what they mean is that the GM must compromise his created world in order to bow to the whims of his players. ALWAYS.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

People are just informing the OP that his house-rules are an unfair consideration when comparing the general merits of two classes.

If house-rules too insulting (Why?) then try thinking of them as Pathfinder mods, liken to skyrim mods.

[LazarX]

Marthkus wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

And who determines what spells are available? The player or the GM?

The dice.

So the GM has no say what so ever to what is and is not available in his world and where?

Not everyone plays in Golarion.

What I've learned on these forums is that when people refer to "compromise" what they mean is that the GM must compromise his created world in order to bow to the whims of his players. ALWAYS.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

People are just informing the OP that his house-rules are an unfair consideration when comparing the general merits of two classes.

If house-rules too insulting (Why?) then try thinking of them as Pathfinder mods, liken to skyrim mods.

The OP seems to think that how his DM treats his Wizard IS the standard of play.

[anthonydido]

OK, since this all stems from how GMs in your area houserule things, let's take another angle. What if you showed the GM(s) the information in the rulebook about purchasing magic items or direct them to this thread and see if their mind changes. If it does nothing to thwart their bad houseruling then there is no way that the wizard could compare to the sorcerer in this environment since his main selling point is being taken away from him.

[Daenar]

Just saying when i played rotrl AP i as a wizard knew over 120 spells by level 10 using the published rules.

[Aelryinth]

Nearyn wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

An evil wizard using any form of magic against the planetar is going to trip the aura.

Incorrect. If I use a neutral source (such as an unaligned magic item) it does not trip the aura. An evil item has the [evil] descriptor, and is expressly cited as being blocked by the protection from evil effect, enjoyed by such outsiders.

protection from evil wrote:

but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion

Evil creatures or objects, meaning non-evil objects are not blocked. A wand of magic missile, even if crafted by an evil wizard and used by an evil wizard, does not suddenly get the [evil] descriptor. So magic items work just fine against our hypothetical trapped outsider.

Aelryinth wrote:

And an intelligent neutral character doing so for the benefit of an evil character is committing an evil act. It's going to be very hard to pass the sniff test on that. "I keep my neutral alignment while performing an act designed to completely subjugate a good outsider of the highest heavens to this evil bastard" is probably not going to fly.

Even if it was relevant, one evil act does not change your alignment. If I was to (for some reason) commission a neutral caster to geas the creature, the act would not magically turn said character evil, thereby saving the outsider out of convinience. I mean... I guess technically it might, if you employed some form of point system for calculating alignment shifts, and the neutral character was on the very edge of evil? So I guess in very situational circumstances, I -might- be prevented from commissioning a casting of geas. Not that I need it though, seeing as how I can just use a magical object.

Aelryinth wrote:

Good outsiders will probably willingly die before being forced to act against their alignment. That's a very key difference between them and evil ones. You cannot force one to

...

Any spell cast by an evil creature, whether using an item or doing so themselves, will trip Prot/Evil. This is known fact.

Spells with the (evil) descriptor are evil if cast by ANYONE.

As for the Neutral caster...it's an extremely evil act to do what you are trying to do. Accepting a boon from a succubus makes you CE on the MOMENT...and this is leagues more evil then getting a small power up to a Stat.
Yeah, that Neutral caster isn't going to be neutral if he agrees to this. And compelling a neutral character to do it probably follows the indirect sniff-test rules.

==Aelryinth

[Marthkus]

Aelryinth wrote:

As for the Neutral caster...it's an extremely evil act to do what you are trying to do. Accepting a boon from a succubus makes you CE on the MOMENT...and this is leagues more evil then getting a small power up to a Stat.

1. Performing an evil act as a neutral character does not make you trip effects that protect against evil creatures.

2. The boon does not make you CE, I have no idea where you got such an idea.

[Aelryinth]

phantom1592 wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

As such... 'Arcane' bloodline is one of the most boring ones I've seen. Part demon, part fey, part something is a lot cooler then 'like a wizard but not...'

In my world, the 'arcane' bloodline is the 'mutt' bloodline...you've actually got several heritages in your background, but none of them are dominant, so they've mixed as a general attunement to magic.

Among most races, it's also called the 'human' bloodline, since they seem to have it the most.

==Aelryinth

[Chris Lambertz]

Locking. Personal insults and accusations of trolling don't help. I think we're done here.