A friend of mine after reading the PF core asked me the following...
What is the point in making a Wizard when a Sorcerer with the Arcane Bloodline is pretty much the same thing and can spontaneous cast to boot?
I had never really thought on this before but after looking the two classes over with a fresh eye I have to admit I cannot come up with any reasons... (And when it comes to casters I am a dyed in the wool Wizard fanboy).
Help me out here folks am I missing something?
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Faster access to spells for starters.
Spellbook allows for an "infinite" amount of spells known.
Bonus feats. Free Scribe Scroll.
INT based allows for mondo skillage.
School Specializations are pretty awesome, and sometimes a lot more versatile than bloodlines.
Spellbook allows for an "infinite" amount of spells known.
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1. A wizard can potently learn every spell instead of being limited to a set number of spell determined by level.
2. Wizards use INT as a casting stat so that means they get a lot more skill, and have a lot higher roll on a lot of important skills.
3. Wizards get access to spells one level earlier than a sorcerer
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Well, there are a lot of reasons, let me just give half a dozen off the top of my head:
1. They get each level of spells one level sooner, so 3rd level spells at 5th level instead of 6th. That's a big one right there.
2. Once Sorcerers pick their spells they can't switch them out, while Wizards can do so every day (and, with their Bonded object do any spell in their book once per day...so potentially any spell they can theoretically cast). This allows them to tailor their spell selection for specific foes.
3. On odd numbered levels, due to #1, they actually have more spells per day than a Sorcerer.
4. School powers. Bloodlines are cool, but several of the schools are just ridiculous, Admixture Evocation, several that let you teleport as a spell-like ability, and Divination's ridiculous Initiative bonus, for example.
5. Much easier Item Crafting. Because they can get them in their book and memorize them one day while crafting, they can do this even with spells they'll very rarely want to use otherwise.
6. Being Int based, with all the Knowledge skills as Class. Intelligence is much better than Charisma as a stat, in many ways. Yes, the Sage bloodline can duplicate that, but at the cost of a Bloodline Arcana, and they still don't get the Knowledge skills.
EDIT: Ninja'd a bit, but my point stands.
Dipping in dual blooded sorcerer allows you to use both those bloodline abilities for your wizard spells too without the huge wait on higher level spells. Magic knack to get back to caster level.
In PFS you trade scribe scroll for spell focus so you get spell specization and varisian tattoo sooner.
The school power I feel trump the bloodline powers.
In addition to what the others have said, the Wizard has more and better bonus feats. And metamagic doesn't increase the cast time on your spells. Arcane Sorcerer can do that only a limited number of times per day until level 20 (16 with the Robe of Arcane Heritage).
And Intelligence is just plain better than Charisma, especially with the new traits that let you use Intelligence in place of Charisma for certain skills.
On the other hand, if you're a Human you can use your favored class bonus to learn more spells. This won't allow you to have all the spells, but it'll let you learn basically all the useful ones. Then take Racial Heritage and Paragon Surge, and you have access to the whole list for the cost of a 3rd level spell. Once you get 7th level spells (or a lesser rod of Quicken Spell) it's even feasible in combat.
1. A wizard can potently learn every spell instead of being limited to a set number of spell determined by level.
2. Wizards use INT as a casting stat so that means they get a lot more skill, and have a lot higher roll on a lot of important skills.
3. Wizards get access to spells one level earlier than a sorcerer
1: sound in theory. Unfortunately not in practical application. It has been my experience that GMs are deathly afraid of wizards gaining spells beyond what the charts/class level ups allow.
2: Assumes the Sorcerer cannot have a high INT as well not a selling point.
3: Again great in theory but when you only get 2 per level not a big seller.
I am starting to think the Wizard got shafted with the introduction of Bloodlines...
I am starting to think the Wizard got shafted with the introduction of Bloodlines...
Good. We from the Society of Martials fully support caster-shafting. No, not that way...
Maybe play a Wizard to show some brand loyalty? And if you just want to feel like Gandalf even though Gandalf was like a magician or a Bard of some kind?
At this point I think adding the arcane bloodline powers to the wizard would help with the perceived imbalance. (coupled with my house rule that all casters are spontaneous this should help the wizard see more use in my games.)
I am starting to think the Wizard got shafted with the introduction of Bloodlines...Good. We from the Society of Martials fully support caster-shafting. No, not that way...
Maybe play a Wizard to show some brand loyalty? And if you just want to feel like Gandalf even though Gandalf was like a magician or a Bard of some kind?
Well I don't remember if Gandalf ever carried a spellbook around and seeing how charismatic he is, I suspect he might be a bloody SORCERER.
Radhagast is certainly a druid. (Have I spelt his name correctly?)
Also the Arcanist kinda happened, so yeah...
Also the Arcanist kinda happened, so yeah...
Oh yeah what's the deal with that beastie? Feels like a sorcerer with more spell versatility in exchange for the permanent bloodline bonus. I say permanent because I'm pretty sure an arcanist can gain bloodline/specialisation benefit for a minute at a time by expending its reservoir one way or another.
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1. Don't make the assumption that your "experience" is typical.1. A wizard can potently learn every spell instead of being limited to a set number of spell determined by level.
2. Wizards use INT as a casting stat so that means they get a lot more skill, and have a lot higher roll on a lot of important skills.
3. Wizards get access to spells one level earlier than a sorcerer
1: sound in theory. Unfortunately not in practical application. It has been my experience that GMs are deathly afraid of wizards gaining spells beyond what the charts/class level ups allow.
2: Assumes the Sorcerer cannot have a high INT as well not a selling point.
3: Again great in theory but when you only get 2 per level not a big seller.
I am starting to think the Wizard got shafted with the introduction of Bloodlines...
The same could be said for your stance.
35 years of gaming (on both sides of the gm screen) and discussions with other players from all walks of life (over that 35 years) says my experiences are the norm.2. Unless you're using the cheese known as the Sage bloodline, very few sorcerers will be investing in Int on the level a Wizard dones when they're pumping Charisma.
every single Sorcerer build I have encountered says you are stating opinion as fact.
3. Wizards can buy or steal additional spells besides the two freebies per level. Sorcerers are locked into what they get at level up. and can only exceed that by expensive purchases.
purchase/theft of additional spells is GM dependent. (see my previous responses to point #1)
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At this point I think adding the arcane bloodline powers to the wizard would help with the perceived imbalance. (coupled with my house rule that all casters are spontaneous this should help the wizard see more use in my games.)
Lol.
Thassilonian Wizards have more spells than Sorcerers do till 18th level.
Also your experience is completely out of context. In almost any city/large town you can purchase spells to add to your spellbook. In any game which gets up to 9th level a Wizard can then teleport to one of these cities and purchase spells. A GM who ignores that is doing some hefty house ruling.
This is completely ignoring that a common enemy are enemy wizards and they drop spellbooks. Likely trapped but that's why erase is handy.
Also spontaneous metamagic is pretty awful. Wizards don't worry about that.
At this point I think adding the arcane bloodline powers to the wizard would help with the perceived imbalance. (coupled with my house rule that all casters are spontaneous this should help the wizard see more use in my games.)Lol.
Thassilonian Wizards have more spells than Sorcerers do till 18th level.
Also your experience is completely out of context. In almost any city/large town you can purchase spells to add to your spellbook. In any game which gets up to 9th level a Wizard can then teleport to one of these cities and purchase spells. A GM who ignores that is doing some hefty house ruling.
This is completely ignoring that a common enemy are enemy wizards and they drop spellbooks. Likely trapped but that's why erase is handy.
Also spontaneous metamagic is pretty awful. Wizards don't worry about that.
Purchase/availability is still GM dependent...
And contrary to popular belief it is the GM not the player or the game books that decides what, when, and where spells and items are available.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why do I feel like I'm the only one who keeps usable scrolls of really circumstantial spells rather than spending the time and resources to scribe it onto the spellbook?
I mean, who the heck prepares a Control Weather? I'd much rather have a scroll of one than have one sitting in my spellbook doing absolutely nothing. Well, other than feeling like I've made a huge collection of trading cards... I mean spells.
So in my experience, I found I spend just as much on scrolls whether I be a sorcerer, a wizard or even a druid. Well, especially as a divine caster because you can't keep a spell slot open and prepare it on the fly. And that, these scrolls really add up to making any character highly versatile much more so than its paper stats would indicate.
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At this point I think adding the arcane bloodline powers to the wizard would help with the perceived imbalance. (coupled with my house rule that all casters are spontaneous this should help the wizard see more use in my games.)Lol.
Thassilonian Wizards have more spells than Sorcerers do till 18th level.
Also your experience is completely out of context. In almost any city/large town you can purchase spells to add to your spellbook. In any game which gets up to 9th level a Wizard can then teleport to one of these cities and purchase spells. A GM who ignores that is doing some hefty house ruling.
This is completely ignoring that a common enemy are enemy wizards and they drop spellbooks. Likely trapped but that's why erase is handy.
Also spontaneous metamagic is pretty awful. Wizards don't worry about that.
Purchase/availability is still GM dependent...
And contrary to popular belief it is the GM not the player or the game books that decides what, when, and where spells and items are available.
That is fine. But the rules state that there is a spellbook with 6 3rd level spells always available for sale in a Large Town.
So yes, to answer your question, house ruling the Wizard's advantage away will make the Sorcerer seem strong.
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Example from my wizard's last gaming day:
Day 1: Social day on the town. Emphasis on enchantment, illusion, divination, and utility.
Day 2: Assaulting the BBEG's lair: Emphasis on offense, mobility, buffs, and protection.
My wizard is a completely different kind of threat depending on which spells I prepare day-to-day. (And that's leaving out the way Scribe Scroll makes it easy and cheap to keep other spells available without memorizing them.) One spell slot with the right spell at the right time is worth several slots with the wrong spell at the wrong time. That flexibility is just worth so much, I can't imagine trading it for a bloodline power and a few more slots. Especially in the hands of an experienced player with good mastery of the spell rules and an ability to prepare intelligently.
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Being a Wizard is all about the Hunt. The hunt for spells. It's the only class I've played where I could improve my character, at moments other then level ups, and gain real abilities, from the world. The stereotype of the wizard whose sole goal is; get more spells, is actually a believable motivation, because improvement is always at hand, and never complete.
In a game where GMs take special initiative to prevent picking up spells as you level, I would agree that Sorcerer is best. But that is like saying that the Fighter in that game may only take Bonus feats at every 5 levels. At that point, play Gunslinger.
Gms who disallow finding, or purchasing scrolls that hold your additional spells, and the writing material for them are squaring off a big segment of play for any class: prepared or sponaenous, or even Use Magic Devicers.
I've played as Sorcerer and Wizard in the same campaign. At lower levels, when faced with a problem that is not "hit it with magic missile", the sorcerer felt boring and powerless. The wizard, since my initial spell selections were varied, often pulled out the ace, if I kept some of his slots open, and kept my Arcane Bonded item ready.
In dungeon crawls where the game is; kick open door, kill monster, a Sorcerer is more effective, presumably, since he has more spells per day, and there wasn't any preparing time anyway. But arguably, the Wizard has more potential for fun/frustration (emotional experience), because you can change up your game every day, or even every fight, if you regiment your spell slot using, and take 15 minutes or so after each fight. It remains fresher longer.
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That is fine. But the rules state that there is a spellbook with 6 3rd level spells always available for sale in a Large Town.
So yes, to answer your question, house ruling the Wizard's advantage away will make the Sorcerer seem strong.
No, the rules don't say that, the guidelines do.
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Does any GM who excessively limits a wizard's ability to buy new spells also limit a fighter's ability to buy new weapons? I mean, letting them go beyond what is on their chart could get out of hand... Better play a monk so you don't have to worry.
Collecting spells, is to me, the defining trait of the wizard. It's what makes a wizard fun and unique.
Most of the others have covered the maaaany benefits of a wizard very well.
As a matter of opinion though; wizards are by far and away the "best" arcane casting class, closely followed by sorcerers, then closely (possibly) followed by arcanists. Being able to leave spell slots open to prepare that, "What if." spell is a huge advantage for an arcane caster, who is essentially meant to play the role of a toolbox.
No, the rules don't say that, the guidelines do.That is fine. But the rules state that there is a spellbook with 6 3rd level spells always available for sale in a Large Town.
So yes, to answer your question, house ruling the Wizard's advantage away will make the Sorcerer seem strong.
Oh really?
Base Value and Purchase Limit This section lists the community's base value for available magic items in gp (see Table: Available Magic Items). There is a 75% chance that any item of this value or lower can be found for sale in the community with little effort. If an item is not available, a new check to determine if the item has become available can be made in 1 week. A settlement's purchase limit is the most money a shop in the settlement can spend to purchase any single item from the PCs. If the PCs wish to sell an item worth more than a settlement's purchase limit, they'll either need to settle for a lower price, travel to A larger city, or (with the GM's permission) search for a specific buyer in the city with deeper pockets. A settlement's type sets its purchase limit.
I wonder if you roll behind a screen for that 75%?
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Yeah, that's a great guideline you just posted.
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Yeah, that's a great guideline you just posted.
Presented below are basic rules for a more streamlined method of handling settlements in your game.
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Yeah, that's a great guideline you just posted.
Comes straight from the Core Guideline Book?
At this point I think adding the arcane bloodline powers to the wizard would help with the perceived imbalance. (coupled with my house rule that all casters are spontaneous this should help the wizard see more use in my games.)Lol.
Thassilonian Wizards have more spells than Sorcerers do till 18th level.
Also your experience is completely out of context. In almost any city/large town you can purchase spells to add to your spellbook. In any game which gets up to 9th level a Wizard can then teleport to one of these cities and purchase spells. A GM who ignores that is doing some hefty house ruling.
This is completely ignoring that a common enemy are enemy wizards and they drop spellbooks. Likely trapped but that's why erase is handy.
Also spontaneous metamagic is pretty awful. Wizards don't worry about that.
Purchase/availability is still GM dependent...
And contrary to popular belief it is the GM not the player or the game books that decides what, when, and where spells and items are available.That is fine. But the rules state that there is a spellbook with 6 3rd level spells always available for sale in a Large Town.
So yes, to answer your question, house ruling the Wizard's advantage away will make the Sorcerer seem strong.
Got a book and page number for that rule?
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Got a book and page number for that rule?At this point I think adding the arcane bloodline powers to the wizard would help with the perceived imbalance. (coupled with my house rule that all casters are spontaneous this should help the wizard see more use in my games.)Lol.
Thassilonian Wizards have more spells than Sorcerers do till 18th level.
Also your experience is completely out of context. In almost any city/large town you can purchase spells to add to your spellbook. In any game which gets up to 9th level a Wizard can then teleport to one of these cities and purchase spells. A GM who ignores that is doing some hefty house ruling.
This is completely ignoring that a common enemy are enemy wizards and they drop spellbooks. Likely trapped but that's why erase is handy.
Also spontaneous metamagic is pretty awful. Wizards don't worry about that.
Purchase/availability is still GM dependent...
And contrary to popular belief it is the GM not the player or the game books that decides what, when, and where spells and items are available.That is fine. But the rules state that there is a spellbook with 6 3rd level spells always available for sale in a Large Town.
So yes, to answer your question, house ruling the Wizard's advantage away will make the Sorcerer seem strong.
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Hey, guidelines can call themselves whatever they want, but it has no hold on how I build my worlds for my games, unless I want to include it.
Hell, I could make a rule that all weapons and attacks do zero damage and instead just make monsters cry, and it would be legit. It would be a stupid game, but I can do that if I run a game. Unless it's some sort of Society situation, there's nothing the books can do the stop me.
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Hey, guidelines can call themselves whatever they want, but it has no hold on how I build my worlds for my games, unless I want to include it.
Hell, I could make a rule that all weapons and attacks do zero damage and instead just make monsters cry, and it would be legit. It would be a stupid game, but I can do that if I run a game. Unless it's some sort of Society situation, there's nothing the books can do the stop me.
Yeah sure. Rule 0 lets you houserule whatever you'd like.
Yeah sure. Rule 0 lets you houserule whatever you'd like.Hey, guidelines can call themselves whatever they want, but it has no hold on how I build my worlds for my games, unless I want to include it.
Hell, I could make a rule that all weapons and attacks do zero damage and instead just make monsters cry, and it would be legit. It would be a stupid game, but I can do that if I run a game. Unless it's some sort of Society situation, there's nothing the books can do the stop me.
Eggzackery.
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Eggzackery.Yeah sure. Rule 0 lets you houserule whatever you'd like.Hey, guidelines can call themselves whatever they want, but it has no hold on how I build my worlds for my games, unless I want to include it.
Hell, I could make a rule that all weapons and attacks do zero damage and instead just make monsters cry, and it would be legit. It would be a stupid game, but I can do that if I run a game. Unless it's some sort of Society situation, there's nothing the books can do the stop me.
Due note humorously that there is a rule that allows you to houserule.
LinkifiedGot a book and page number for that rule?At this point I think adding the arcane bloodline powers to the wizard would help with the perceived imbalance. (coupled with my house rule that all casters are spontaneous this should help the wizard see more use in my games.)Lol.
Thassilonian Wizards have more spells than Sorcerers do till 18th level.
Also your experience is completely out of context. In almost any city/large town you can purchase spells to add to your spellbook. In any game which gets up to 9th level a Wizard can then teleport to one of these cities and purchase spells. A GM who ignores that is doing some hefty house ruling.
This is completely ignoring that a common enemy are enemy wizards and they drop spellbooks. Likely trapped but that's why erase is handy.
Also spontaneous metamagic is pretty awful. Wizards don't worry about that.
Purchase/availability is still GM dependent...
And contrary to popular belief it is the GM not the player or the game books that decides what, when, and where spells and items are available.That is fine. But the rules state that there is a spellbook with 6 3rd level spells always available for sale in a Large Town.
So yes, to answer your question, house ruling the Wizard's advantage away will make the Sorcerer seem strong.
So your source is an optional expansion for the core game? Additionally, it is a suggestion on how to handle settlements NOT a hard and fast rule.
There is no way a Sorcerer can maintain the same Int score as a Wizard without taking serious hits in Charisma, his own main casting stat (barring Sage bloodline as mentioned, though it's not cheese IMO). Unless you're playing with extremely generous stat gen.
It annoys me to no end that a Sorcerer needs to take a trait to make Diplomacy class, generally the most useful Cha-based skill, and has little going for him at the mage (If you're the main caster, you should be the resident Arcana/Spellcraft expert). Meanwhile Wizards get class with all Int based skills, and the Int gives them the skill points for it.
The only reason I ever pick a sorcerer rather than a wizard is due to laziness.
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So your source is an optional expansion for the core game? Additionally that is not a rule. it is a suggestion on how to handle settlements NOT a hard and fast rule.
It sets a baseline. In the Core Setting Pathfinder is designed on, spells and their purchase are a bit of a given.
You're free to make up whatever you'd like however.
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So your source is an optional expansion for the core game? Additionally that is not a rule. it is a suggestion on how to handle settlements NOT a hard and fast rule.It sets a baseline. In the Core Setting Pathfinder is designed on, spells and their purchase are a bit of a given.
You're free to make up whatever you'd like however.
No it suggests a baseline if you are inclined (or in need) to use the GMG.
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It's basically just this re-iterated.
It's basically just this re-iterated.
Buying a Spellbook is easier than finding a spellcaster.
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So your source is an optional expansion for the core game? Additionally, it is a suggestion on how to handle settlements NOT a hard and fast rule.
Technically all rules are optional. Find a better argument.
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What is the point in making a Wizard when a Sorcerer with the Arcane Bloodline is pretty much the same thing and can spontaneous cast to boot?
Because sometimes you don't need spontaneous casting. Sometimes you need to pull a different spell than you have selected. Sorcerers can't do that without very specific character options.
Because Sage Sorcerers are the only ones that can match the Wizard in Int, and you don't always want that particular option.
Because being 5th level and not having 3rd level spells is depressing.
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Hey, guidelines can call themselves whatever they want, but it has no hold on how I build my worlds for my games, unless I want to include it.
Hence, house-rule.
Once you make house-rules, understand what those are when trying to compare the relative balance between classes.
It's not the rules fault that sorcerers seems better than wizards when you adjust the rules to make wizards worse.
MORE ON TOPIC:
Int is not better than charisma. Charisma is very sexy for bluff, disguise, charm-spells, and planar binding.
Which IMHO planar binding is HUGE for sorcerers and they are basically set up to get it at 11th level
Buying a Spellbook is easier than finding a spellcaster.It's basically just this re-iterated.
I was just saying there are 'core' rules for the level of spellcasting you can find in each settlement.
I was just saying there are 'core' rules for the level of spellcasting you can find in each settlement.Buying a Spellbook is easier than finding a spellcaster.It's basically just this re-iterated.
The Gamemastery guide is in the Core rules line.
The Gamemastery guide is in the Core rules line.I was just saying there are 'core' rules for the level of spellcasting you can find in each settlement.Buying a Spellbook is easier than finding a spellcaster.It's basically just this re-iterated.
But is not required for play.
Only the CRB is required.
The Gamemastery guide is in the Core rules line.I was just saying there are 'core' rules for the level of spellcasting you can find in each settlement.Buying a Spellbook is easier than finding a spellcaster.It's basically just this re-iterated.
But is not required for play.
Only the CRB is required.
So all those people who use the PRD are not actually playing Pathfinder?
This thing has derailed on the first page.
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The Gamemastery guide is in the Core rules line.I was just saying there are 'core' rules for the level of spellcasting you can find in each settlement.Buying a Spellbook is easier than finding a spellcaster.It's basically just this re-iterated.
But is not required for play.
Only the CRB is required.
And the rules for what level of spells spellcasters you can hire have access to is detailed on page 163 of the core rulebook...
The Gamemastery guide is in the Core rules line.I was just saying there are 'core' rules for the level of spellcasting you can find in each settlement.Buying a Spellbook is easier than finding a spellcaster.It's basically just this re-iterated.
But is not required for play.
Only the CRB is required.
Alright mate. Whatever you say. I show you whats printed in the core line and you give me "Only CRB is required and my GM's don't let wizard buy spells."