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The book seems somewhat ambiguous about morality in Golarion. What's to stop a 15th level Paladin from rolling into some small LE town and killing all the corrupt local officials, effectively forcing his morality on them through force?
Morally? Nothing. Any 'morality'he imposes is, kinda inevitably, going to be a fair set of laws that apply to everyone, and thus better for people than a LE regime. Freeing the Evil Empire from tyranny is just this on a larger scale.
Now, practically speaking, if the people are actually LE and not just the government, they'll do everything possible to work around this guy, and probably be medium-successful, making this an exercise in futility. Also on the practical side, as others mention, if that town is part of a nation (Nidal or Cheliax, say) they have plenty of resources to go in and take out a lone 15th Level Paladin.
Because realistically you can't impose virtue by force. And even said Paladin has to sleep sometime.
This is true, but conquering some place and instituting new standards can work if the people there are on-board or don't care (ie: in this case, are Good or Neutral).
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What's to stop a 15th level Paladin from rolling into some small LE town and killing all the corrupt local officials, effectively forcing his morality on them through force?
The setting.
Their lawful good alignment.The Paladin Code.
The laws of the land they are in.
Common sense.
Possibly the rules of the Paladins Deity.
The fact that the Paladin may have no legal standing to do so in that country.
That fact that "rolling into some small town and killing all the corrupt local officials," yes IS an evil act, since I highly doubt simple corruption carries a death sentance in most situations.
That fact that 'killing all X' is not why Paladins exist? Any Paladin who can only solve problems by 'kill them all and ask questions later' is not a Paladin?
Have the locals done anything illegal within their country that the Paladin is authorised to enforce/counter?
Has anyone in that town asked aid from the Paladin or the powers he represents?
Simply being of evil intent or alignment is not grounds for a Paladin to execute you. Again, simply being of evil intent or alignment is not grounds for a Paladin to execute you.
Actively doing evil in front of the Paladin is grounds for that Paladin to take action and oppose that evil with an APPROPRIATE response. That Paladins ACTION does not have to be 'KILL THEM'. In fact it should be the least chosen action if at all possible.
The Paladin is GOOD and so therefore life is sacred to them. They do not exist to kill everything and let the gods sort them out.
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The book seems somewhat ambiguous about morality in Golarion. What's to stop a 15th level Paladin from rolling into some small LE town and killing all the corrupt local officials, effectively forcing his morality on them through force?Because realistically you can't impose virtue by force. And even said Paladin has to sleep sometime.
What if the paladin is an outsider or deity?
The exception to the above rules is that the Paladin can invoke Stand Your Ground, if the campaign takes place in Florida. He mustn't leave any survivors though, or he may be convicted of attempted murder charges.
What if the paladin is an outsider or deity?
If the Paladin is an non native outsider they don't sleep. So you got him there.
If the Paladin is a deity then they sort of have the last word on what is or is not 'being authorised' somewhere. Sort of the 600 LB gorrila theory taken to it's logical extreme.
The book seems somewhat ambiguous about morality in Golarion. What's to stop a 15th level Paladin from rolling into some small LE town and killing all the corrupt local officials, effectively forcing his morality on them through force?
His code. He must respect legitimate authority. Whether it was through inheritance or conquest, they are the leaders in that community. He doesn't have to like it but he has to respect it. Also, good doesn't kill just because you don't approve of something. If an innocent was threatened the paladin can protect them. If it's just taking money to not notice illicit activities then the paladin can't do squat.
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His code. He must respect legitimate authority. Whether it was through inheritance or conquest, they are the leaders in that community. He doesn't have to like it but he has to respect it. Also, good doesn't kill just because you don't approve of something. If an innocent was threatened the paladin can protect them. If it's just taking money to not notice illicit activities then the paladin can't do squat.
Uh...how is walking in and conquering the place himself not 'right of conquest'?
And any LE authority is pretty definitively hurting innocents or, well, they'd be LN instead. Plus, most Paladins aren't gonna consider a LE authority 'legitimate'.
Now, there are certainly Paladins (probably most of them) who wouldn't do this sort of thing for all kinds of reasons...but simply being a Paladin does nothing to make you not do this.
Uh...how is walking in and conquering the place himself not 'right of conquest'?
Uh...because good doesn't kill just because they don't like you. Good respects life.
And any LE authority is pretty definitively hurting innocents or, well, they'd be LN instead. Plus, most Paladins aren't gonna consider a LE authority 'legitimate'.
Tell that to all the paladins in Cheliax. There are lots. It's even a center for the Iomedean faith. Furthermore, no one said they themselves were harming innocents. All evil takes is harming and oppressing. Your victims don't have to be innocent. Like I said, if they were merely being paid off, they wouldn't be guilty of the crimes themselves. Even so, there are a ton of LE towns in Golarion and no where will you find an official source having paladins lose their s~*$ just merely passing through one.
Now, there are certainly Paladins (probably most of them) who wouldn't do this sort of thing for all kinds of reasons...but simply being a Paladin does nothing to make you not do this.
Yes, it does.
Common sense is the only real roadblock. Destroying evil is his whole purpose in life, and he certainly has the strength to carry out that purpose in a typical small town -- but does he have the strength to stick around long enough to reform that town as numerous parties of high level evil foes converge on that town for the express purpose of taking him down?
If he doesn't have the strength to hold onto the town long enough to reform it, then he has to decide just how evil the existing government in that town is. Is it better or worse than the anarchy that would exist if he simply massacred the leaders and left?
To add some perspective, rolling through a town kicking ass and taking names would be rather chaotic. There's always that.
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Destroying evil is his whole purpose in life
Umm what?
A paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
A paladin may try to redeem the people and leaders of an evil settlement, showing them a better, more honourable way to live, he may stop to halt crimes and capture criminals, he may even then argue for moderation in said criminals favour in the courts if it is justified, to ensure the criminal receives a just verdict. He may encourage other good people to move to the area to provide more moral support and examples of how living a good life is beneficial, and so on and on.
What a Paladin will not do is walk into a random village and start murdering everyone who detects as evil.
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Uh...because good doesn't kill just because they don't like you. Good respects life.
Yes, they do. I never said otherwise. But they also seek out and defeat evildoers, it's kinda their thing. If, say, an Andoren Paladin has been fighting against/hunting a bunch of slavers and finally finds the village they're headquartered from, the fact that they run the village doesn't keep him from arresting or killing them. And once he's done that, setting up a LG governmental structure seems entirely reasonable.
If they're just LE for, say, being corrupt, yeah, the Paladin's probably a bit more limited in the scope of his actions...but honestly, you need to be pretty solidly bad as a community to wind up with an Evil alignment.
Tell that to all the paladins in Cheliax. There are lots. It's even a center for the Iomedean faith.
Oh, totally. You'll note how I said 'most'. I suspect those Andoren Paladins find the idea of following Chelaxian law laughable, for example. And almost all Paladins are gonna find Geb's laws seriously illegitimate.
And if an Imodean Paladin eventually reached the conclusion that Cheliax's government was too corrupt to fix, I certainly don't think she'd fall for starting to oppose them.
Furthermore, no one said they themselves were harming innocents. All evil takes is harming and oppressing. Your victims don't have to be innocent. Like I said, if they were merely being paid off, they wouldn't be guilty of the crimes themselves. Even so, there are a ton of LE towns in Golarion and no where will you find an official source having paladins lose their s*@$ just merely passing through one.
I didn't in any way say Paladins were obligated to conquer every Evil aligned town they saw. Hell, I said most of them (for various reasons) wouldn't even consider it. But doing so isn't generally something that makes you fall.
And honestly, I shouldn't have even mentioned innocence. A Paladin who sees cruelty and injustice is gonna probably want to do something about it (and be justified in doing something, what being based on the severity of the act) regardless of the victim's innocence.
Yes, it does.
Nothing about being a Paladin means you can't fight against Evil as soon as it puts on a sheriff's badge or a crown. Maybe if it's the badge or crown of your community or country, but an Andoran Paladin can walk into a Kuthonite party in Nidal where the lord of the place is torturing people to death, free the people, and kill the lord and everyone who tries to stop him. Hell, in many ways that's what Paladins do.
Hell, here's an example of this sort of thing from Geb, from the Pathfinder Tales web fiction.
Note: I did say this often has practical problems, as demonstrated there...but he still seems to be a Paladin right up to the end. Just not a very bright one.
What's to stop a 15th level Paladin from rolling into some small LE town and killing all the corrupt local officials, effectively forcing his morality on them through force?
For exactly the same reason that 15th level adventurers don't spend their time rescuing small villages from goblins; they have bigger fish to fry.
This has - in my view - NOTHING to do with paladin morality rules. It's about the priorities of high-level characters.
Note: I did say this often has practical problems, as demonstrated there...but he still seems to be a Paladin right up to the end. Just not a very bright one.
So this kind of thought exercise is how we cull the "too stupid for their own good" kind of paladin? Cool. Makes me question why their god gave them powers in the first place, though. It also makes me question how they got to level 15.
To add some perspective, rolling through a town kicking ass and taking names would be rather chaotic. There's always that.
Yeah, I was about to point this out myself. Walking into town and violently overthrowing an evil government wouldn't technically be an evil action, but it is most definitely a chaotic action unless gone about in an appropriate fashion. Paladins and morality are all about qualifiers - there're too many little tidbits and fidgety parts that go into deciding whether or not an action is justified to just go "If X does Y, is it Z?"
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So this kind of thought exercise is how we cull the "too stupid for their own good" kind of paladin? Cool.
That guy was a moron, but didn't do anything that made him fall. There are ways to do the same sort of thing that aren't moronic, but are morally equivalent. A Paladin shouldn't fall for those either.
That said...yeah, this kind of thing isn't usually a good idea at all. Which I said in my first post, actually. :)
But "good idea" and "morally acceptable" are different things. This sort of thing is often the second, and rarely the first.
Makes me question why their god gave them powers in the first place, though. It also makes me question how they got to level 15.
They were very pretty and very nice. Kinda like a puppy, and almost as smart. And the Wizard told them what to do until he retired. Poor, poor, Int 7, Wis 7 Paladin...;)
More seriously, this goes back to 'smart' and 'moral' being different. The second is required to be a Paladin, the first is not...though it's a bad idea not to have it.
Puppies are int 2, maybe 1. Int 7 may be a little slow but not what's classically regarded as retarded at all. They know what they're doing. I'd also not allow it if I were GMing. Said 'paladin' would stop being so in my campaign as no deity would grant them said abilities with that kind of outlook for no other reason than no deity wants their powers in the hands of a fool who can potentially wreak havoc in their name AND have their powers to do so.
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Puppies are int 2, maybe 1. Int 7 may be a little slow but not what's classically regarded as retarded at all. They know what they're doing. I'd also not allow it if I were GMing. Said 'paladin' would stop being so in my campaign as no deity would grant them said abilities with that kind of outlook for no other reason than no deity wants their powers in the hands of a fool who can potentially wreak havoc in their name AND have their powers to do so.
I was kidding.
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Atually I was referencing this.
Ah I see. I tend to stay away from real world news and politics on my game posts. I am either too stupid about or too annoyed by the real world to pull it into my gaming.
You could break up a slave auction in your view? Storm right on in their and free the slaves? I mean to me not doing so would require some soul serching (Admittedly not necessarily that much, if for instance you are in Cheliax to achieve a 'greater good' stopping a Devil summoning for instance, or bringing the Hell Knights down on you would end you, then yea, look for a sneakier way)
The slave auction scenario would be primarily covered under:
Common Sense
The laws of the land they are in.
Paladins don't exist in a vacuum and when played (IMO) properly have a brain in their head. That means if you come upon a slave auction you have to THINK.
Is slavery legal in this country? If yes then you may hate slavery but you have no legal right HERE to attack willy nilly to free them.
Also, if your in a country that has legal slavery, what are you going to do with the slaves you free? Have you taken the time to setup transportation out of the country, food, clothing and money to assist them in their escape? Can you keep them sequestered and hidden long enough to get them to freedom?
If not then what happens to them after you have killed the people holding them? If the slaves flee they could be re-caught by other slavers in the city, caught and turned in by the residents of the city, cut down as escaping slaves by the city guard or other slavers or their guards, captured by the thieves guilds in the city and re-sold into slavery again, possibly elude capture but starve or die of illness while trying to find a way out of the city/country, etc.
Some will probably not even flee due to being indoctrinated into slavery so long that they know of no other life and the thought of freedom terrifies them. They would not know what to do or how to live if they WERE free.
Now none of this means slavery is good or that the paladin would not want to do something. But very seldom is 'storming the slave auction and killing everyone' the good way to do it.
Now if this slave auction is out in the middle of nowhere or being held secretly within the confines of a country where slavery is illegal then perhaps the Paladin storming the place and freeing the slaves is more possible.
But, as in every case, the Paladin has to think things through before going off half assed.
So this kind of thought exercise is how we cull the "too stupid for their own good" kind of paladin? Cool. Makes me question why their god gave them powers in the first place, though.
Because the gods of Paladins and the Paladins themselves are only as smart as the players playing them. And some of them are stupid. :)
But, as in every case, the Paladin has to think things through before going off half assed.I agree with this entirely. I just don't think not doing so causes him to fall from Paladinhood. Die? Possibly. Fall? Not so much.
Agreed. Paladins are tough to play because their morality and code impacts a huge amount of what they need to do.
But the gods who have Paladins (IMO) want those Paladins to be good, virtuous examples of what those gods believe in. They want their Paladins to be guardians of the weak, helpful to the helpless etc.
They choose beings who are 'true believer's' and are willing to put others before themselves if necessary. But they also choose those who can see the big picture and are smart enough to oppose they evils they can actually make a difference opposing and not wasting their lives in vain and useless efforts versus foes and enemies they have no hope of defeating or making a useful change against.
Otherwise the Paladins really aren't any good at BEING Paladins are they?
Getting tired of these threads.
1. A Paladin must obey legitimate authority however if my God says, "Yo Sir Awesome Champion of Justice go wipe out that evil town and convert those who want to be converted," He can go do it. I can't think of a more legitimate authority for a Paladin than his own God. If the City Mayor is evil, the Paladin isn't suddenly powerless. He doesn't need to respect the Mayor's "Legitimate" authority over that of his God's decree to "Slay that Evil, man."
2. If someone detects as Evil, that means there is some hefty evil going on. Like 5 HD of evil which is what is required to ping for Humanoids. That is some serious smite on sight going on there since I wouldn't let such evil get the jump on me. And 5 HD is the upper tier of what normal people living in cities or towns are going to be. Evil Mayor? Smited. Evil Captain of the Watch? Smited.
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Getting tired of these threads.
1. A Paladin must obey legitimate authority however if my God says, "Yo Sir Awesome Champion of Justice go wipe out that evil town and convert those who want to be converted," He can go do it. I can't think of a more legitimate authority for a Paladin than his own God. If the City Mayor is evil, the Paladin isn't suddenly powerless. He doesn't need to respect the Mayor's "Legitimate" authority over that of his God's decree to "Slay that Evil, man."
This, I agree with.
2. If someone detects as Evil, that means there is some hefty evil going on. Like 5 HD of evil which is what is required to ping for Humanoids. That is some serious smite on sight going on there since I wouldn't let such evil get the jump on me. And 5 HD is the upper tier of what normal people living in cities or towns are going to be. Evil Mayor? Smited. Evil Captain of the Watch? Smited.
But this is going too far. Maybe with explicit orders from your deity or independent corroboration that they're not only Evil but involved in some serious badness. But merely pinging as faintly Evil is not enough to justify a smiting on its' own. Stronger auras are a somewhat better justification, but even then you need to be careful. Hell, Misdirection can swap peoples' auras about. Killing the NG cupbearer of the LE king is a definite risk, so some reason other than the aura is generally warranted (Note: The target being a lich or succubus is such a reason, generally speaking, as is them standing over a virgin tied to an altar while holding a knife).
So someone thinks the paladin should just go wantonly kill people whose power aren't even close to his own--people so weak that a small army of them could not even dent him. So much for being honorable.
And crush his enemies, see them driven before him , and hear the lamentations of their women.
If a direct approach is too dangerous, don't use Poison on the water supply yourself: that's against the Code, instead hire one of your friends to do it.
Working with Evil is explicitly allowable, and Asmodeus seems quite willing to negotiate on terms of cooperation.
/LawfulSmart
1. A Paladin must obey legitimate authority however if my God says,
Perhaps, but who determine what is a legitimate authority? The Law the same autthority dictates?
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Detect and Smite Evil determine who is legitimate authority.
Wait.
Who WAS legitimate authority.
Don't want to tell a lie thru bad grammar, after all.
The book seems somewhat ambiguous about morality in Golarion. What's to stop a 15th level Paladin from rolling into some small LE town and killing all the corrupt local officials, effectively forcing his morality on them through force?
This is actually perfectly fine for a Paladin to do. He walks up, he declares that he is going to purge this town of evil to protect the meek, challenges the corrupt local officials to cast aside their vile ways or leave the town in his more than capable hands. He has given them the choice to turn away from their criminal ways, leave the town, or stay in their position but actually be legitimate (under his watchful gaze) and make the town for the people.
This happens at Riddleport every now and again, but most of the Paladins have a tendency to gain the ire of the gang-lords and "disappear." Paladins of Sarenrae are usually far more tolerated and eventually lead members of the gang-lords' gangs and the local population somewhere nicer after bringing them towards law and goodness. Typically the gang-lords don't care if mooks decide to follow a Paladin, since they are a copper a dozen and it is a cheap way to get rid of the Paladin without having to actually fight the Paladin. Paladins are kind of hard to kill.
Just get their autograph. If you can't read it, they are illegible, so you can Smite them.
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The book seems somewhat ambiguous about morality in Golarion. What's to stop a 15th level Paladin from rolling into some small LE town and killing all the corrupt local officials, effectively forcing his morality on them through force?
If i was a Gm in that Game I would consider it a slightly evil and major Chaotic act.
The paladin is basically destroying a legitimate authority just to appease his own holier-than-thou sense of self, promoting anarchy in the process.
If the people is accepting the LE authority it is no place for the paladin to disrupt the peace of that town.
He doesn't have to like the way things work in the town, he has all the rights to engage in any legal act of goodness (actually is encouraged to).
Things would be different if the town rulership is somewhat contested.
If the paladin has any kind of faction fighting for a positive change and with a plan to rule the town more equally after an uprising, a paladin may give support to that faction.
But the paladin role should be to bring order and justice wherever he can.
Slaughter guided by a sense of superiority is one of the quickest path to the fall.
Don't get me wrong .. a paladin doesn't have to be always perfect or else he falls.
but one thing is error and poor judgement, another is having the heart completely in the wrong place.
Believing that destroying evil no matter what comes before promoting good and order is having the heart in the wrong place.
Destroying evil no matter what is at best the province of a chaotic good, at worst, a evil character that is just too blind to see what he became.
So, uh, I'm just going to take this opportunity to mention Council of Thieves. You know, the AP. The one where you're in open rebellion against the LE government that you seek to thwart.
You know, the one where one of the iconics used for that was Seelah. The paladin. Who maintained her paladin status. The whooooooooooole time. Despite also killing creatures, sometimes with extreme prejudice.
(I know, because they keep showing me her stats in the back of the book, and, as the GM, there's really no practical way, with that crew of PCs, and those stats, that they survived and didn't kill a lot of creatures with extreme prejudice.)
I'll admit that I'm a little confused by the stance that a paladin can't oppose an evil government on the basis that it's "legitimate?"
I mean, let's take the county of Barstoi in Ustalav. Barstoi is run by the lawfully appointed Count Neska.
Count Neska is a Lawful Evil psychopath who has declared and enforces in his county the harshest laws in the nation - the vast majority of Neska's laws carry the death penalty. Neska's also strong enough that Prince Ordranti can't meaningfully sanction Neska in any way.
To give an example of Neska's laws, being a spellcaster who isn't part of Pharasma's church is punishable by immediate execution.
Which means that for nearly any paladin, entering Barstoi is a crime, and the paladin faces execution if captured.
Do people seriously take the stance that the paladin isn't even allowed to fight back in those sort of circumstances?
Now, to respond to the OP, I've played a number of paladins over the years, and I take the stance that it's wrong for a paladin to use lethal force against civilians, even if the civilians are complete jerks. Just because someone's a dick doesn't make it okay to kill them. Exceptions exist to this rule, but they're doing something that makes them exceptions.
A paladin whose immediate response to "yeah, the counselor's evil" is to draw a weapon is a lousy paladin.