It seems pretty random to be helping children and then throwing people out windows the next day. Chaotic Neutral is not intended for you to be mentally insane btw. I've seen a number of times where people thought CN meant schizophrenic murder hobo.
Context though, right? I think the underlying point is that a player running a CN character should feel they have the freedom to help children (when fits in with the rest of the CN profile) or throw people out of windows (when it fits with the rest of the CN profile).
Resents Restrictions - PC refuses to peace-tie his blades, violating a law.
Individualist - Arrogant sheriff challenges PC; PC refuses to comply.
Challenges traditions - PC has no respect for pushy sherrif; PC insults his mother.
Resents restrictions - Sherrif attempts to arrest PC; PC throws him through window while resisting arrest.
Avoids authority - Kid helps PC escape from sheriff; PC considers the kid a kindred spirit; PC helps kid later to even out the debt.
In my opinion, CN isn't that hard to play, even in a group. It just involves some extra thought to play it "properly" in a party with more extreme alignments mixed in.
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Honestly, I think the problem is that most people seem to think that having an alignment means that it must be ever present in its representation.
To take the Half-Orc who catches someone cheating at cards example, the half-orc should still go through a bit of a mental checklist.
1. Hey! That guy's cheating at cards! Y/N
2. Should I reach across the table and get my money back? Y/N
3a. There are other people here, are they likely to call the guards if I start a fight? Y/N
3b. What if I kill this guy? Y/N
4. If the guards do show up, will they side with me? Y/N
5. Can I take the guards in a fight? Y/N
6. Is there any other way for me to one up this guy and get my money back? Y/N
Then Mr. Half-Orc decides that pinning this cheater under his arm and calling the guards himself will get him his money back, and maybe a little extra if there's a bounty, or at least the guy's left over money on the table. Now the original example did specify that this half-orc is stupid, which makes the reaction more credible, but the end game isn't because he's chaotic, it's because he's stupid.
Chaotic characters can make completely lawful choices, and SHOULD do it quite often in fact. It's just that they're far more likely to break the rules when it suits them if they either think that the pay-off far outweighs the penalty/risk, or they think they won't be caught in the first place.
The rogue in the OP's story is the one character who's acting like an actual chaotic character. He steals from a store, probably because he thinks he won't be caught. He gets caught, but then surrenders to the lawful authorities because he doesn't want to be ran through on the spot. He's then probably planing his own break-out/hoping his buddies will spring him/that the courts will be lenient. He's got a mix of lawful and chaotic actions based on what suits his needs, but they have some vague concept of thought behind them, not just "I AM CHAOTIC! YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE COPPERS!"
-I also agree that this sounds like a series of CE actions, rather than anything else.
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A few examples of CN characters concepts...
1. Gnome Fey Sorcerer, addicted to trick playing, and occasionally harmful or nasty jokes...as long as he thinks it is funny. would never kill, but might harm. Likely to charm a married man into kissing the bar maid just to see the wife beat him. Evil? yeah, but he's doing it from a love of chaos rather than evil. Said character could love children and animals easily.
2. A Really dumb orc. Just thinks violence is his only tool. Doesn't pick on people, but would punch a commoner not realizing his STR 22 will put a hole through most lv.1 farmers.
3. A drug addict. Means well, but his addiction causes him to betray the party over and over again. Feels terrible but can't help himself.
4. A Bard. Likes the ladies, likes painting the town red. Hates all forms of authority, and likes petty theft
5. A cleric of a god of madness, intentionally doing crazy stuff
6. A extreme sports character, who gets off on crazy stunts, and being in the public eye. Utterly self centered.
7. A fighter, who is suffering from PTSD and sees Japanese Snipers in his sleep. Shoot first, ask questions later. Shoots the wrong thing...ooops, killed the wrong guy, again.
8. A scholar obsessed with aberrations, and mind warping far planes in general.
On the blow-by-blow of the OP's context, I totally agree. This party is behaving like CE types, not CN.
I was only speaking towards the "helps kids / window-throws" issue.
Alcohol is legal and free, where as drugs are usually illegal and controlled by shady types. I was reading a Pbp where a character is a shiver addict. She gets in trouble with dealers and underworld types.
Harbin, I like your examples, but why are your Orcish examples always dumb?
2. A Really dumb orc. Just thinks violence is his only tool. Doesn't pick on people, but would punch a commoner not realizing his STR 22 will put a hole through most lv.1 farmers.
I'd qualify this as evil after his first experience killing someone. Like Lennie from Of Mice and Men, the first act of murder was a totally an accident, but from there going forward, it tends towards evil (in my opinion).
Thog is an excellent example of a NE dumb character. Sure he loves puppies, icecream, and is as dumb as a box of rocks, but he's also assuredly evil.
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The fact that nearly everybody in this thread has a different idea of what CN means--and are convinced that their viewpoint is objectively correct--demonstrates that the concept of alignment as game mechanic has failed. The fact that so few of these posters' views match the published guidelines for what constitutes a CN alignment, though, is just sad.
I've seen plenty of--and played a few--characters played close to rules-standard CN with no additional difficulty. Most were interesting. Only one was a psychopath (relative to typical PC murderhoboing, of course). And I haven't seen any higher incidence of campaign-shattering derailment with CN than with any other alignment.
2. A Really dumb orc. Just thinks violence is his only tool. Doesn't pick on people, but would punch a commoner not realizing his STR 22 will put a hole through most lv.1 farmers.
I'd qualify this as evil after his first experience killing someone. Like Lennie from Of Mice and Men, the first act of murder was a totally an accident, but from there going forward, it tends towards evil (in my opinion).
Thog is an excellent example of a NE dumb character. Sure he loves puppies, icecream, and is as dumb as a box of rocks, but he's also assuredly evil.
Don't be absurd. A character that is too stupid to realize that his idle punch will kill a person is no more evil than a golem.
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#7 is just stupid though..PTSD is a disorder not a way of life , I know because that is one of my diagnosis from the VA, people with PTSD don't kill people just because they are hallucinating. I think you have watched to many king of the hill episodes.
But anyway..carry on, its a interesting read so far.
Don't be absurd. A character that is too stupid to realize that his idle punch will kill a person is no more evil than a golem.2. A Really dumb orc. Just thinks violence is his only tool. Doesn't pick on people, but would punch a commoner not realizing his STR 22 will put a hole through most lv.1 farmers.
I'd qualify this as evil after his first experience killing someone. Like Lennie from Of Mice and Men, the first act of murder was a totally an accident, but from there going forward, it tends towards evil (in my opinion).
Thog is an excellent example of a NE dumb character. Sure he loves puppies, icecream, and is as dumb as a box of rocks, but he's also assuredly evil.
agreed.
However, after said punch kills someone and they're aware that they hit hard enough to kill, going forward with said punch in the future is definitely evil.
Don't be absurd. A character that is too stupid to realize that his idle punch will kill a person is no more evil than a golem.2. A Really dumb orc. Just thinks violence is his only tool. Doesn't pick on people, but would punch a commoner not realizing his STR 22 will put a hole through most lv.1 farmers.
I'd qualify this as evil after his first experience killing someone. Like Lennie from Of Mice and Men, the first act of murder was a totally an accident, but from there going forward, it tends towards evil (in my opinion).
Thog is an excellent example of a NE dumb character. Sure he loves puppies, icecream, and is as dumb as a box of rocks, but he's also assuredly evil.
agreed.
However, after said punch kills someone and they're aware that they hit hard enough to kill, going forward with said punch in the future is definitely evil.
That's assuming they understand the basic concept of death, or even realize that they did kill someone. What if, in his stupid little Orky brain, he thinks he's just knocking people out and making them sleep?
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I guess PTSD was a poor choice of words, considering the number of Vets who roleplay. I'm trying to think of a character (ravenloft, Irrisen?) whose mind has snapped from the horrors of war...
-as for Orc, a bad temper isn't evil per se.
You be da GM>...set fire to the whole tribe...its not a rule set...they didn't go by rule set either...all I know is you set fire to my kingdom...your going to get burned...yes its free will but ... re-precusions are soon to follow if you do not fit in to our laws. Paladin in Chelix? Any one?
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Bad temper is not..letting the bad temper control you is..and causing it to make you commit acts of unreasoned violence is another step down that road.
Its the afterward that kinda is indicative, remorse, regret for actions, maybe attempts to make amends, without those, a bad temper is not a excuse for evil actions.
Yeah I had a platoon full of RPGing paratroopers, some of which have various problems now in the civilian world..but what you are talking about is someone that is clinically insane and is experiencing full flashbacks with no grasp on reality, still not a alignment basis, since he would be reacting as he did in that situation, insanity always kinda evades nice neat alignment concepts.
If I were the Paladin in this group, I would go for killing them off as evil with smite...yep evil....and get the xp for it...all wrong for murder and mayhem to free a single rogue for legal infraction...Kill the monk first because I personally dont like the monk class and then the bard...because well second to monk...
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Harbin, I like your examples, but why are your Orcish examples always dumb?
My first character was a CHA 6 INT 8 Cleric/Barbarian of Bagthu in a FR game. He was kept on a leash (not literal, but) by a Paladin. In game, we saw a group of people mistreating an animal. Party druid (female) started to cry. Zug walks up and says "I rage and power attack with spiked gauntlets..." well after killing a 1st level commoner...party looks around...Paladin "Why did you do that?"
Zur answers "He made pretty antler lady cry. "Paladin "That was wrong. "
Zug "Yes...very wrong. They won't hurt animal again."
Paladin "ummmmm. yeah. don't do that again. Don't kill people"
Zug "You kill people all the time, especially orcs."
Paladin *smacks head*
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Yeah, Zug was right through.