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Greetings,
while running a campaign there seems to be a problem coming up on which I'd like some advice.
The situation: The party is in a dungeon about one day of travel away from the next town. While they may not have expected the dungeon itself (the dungeon has been overtaken by an evil force) they geared up for the worst, already assuming that something was wrong at the place.
It should be noted the characters are level 6 and have about multiple hundred gold pieces each. Also: This is the first time they are running into a dungeon that is not a) no more than 4 rooms or b) directly next to or inside a town.
So, the party kicks the first monster's arse and proceeds to enter the dungeon. We ended directly before entering the dungeon itself, but it is now that I see multiple problems coming up...
- The casters purchased some scrolls, but none of them with identify. This already bit them as they could not identify a pretty powerful staff.
- The ranger and the bard (who remained back in town and will follow) both have a bow and a back-up weapon for melee. Cleric, paladin and sorcerer don't. Oh, sure, the paladin has two or three melee weapons, but not even a lousy shortbow.
- The ranger bought arrows. 20 arrows. While fighting the guards it dawned on her that this might not be enough if you shoot 4 arrows a round. This is not a first with her, too - prior to this the group had to fight incorporeal beings and she had no magic weapon, not even an oil: magic weapon. The group received multiple warnings that place was "full of monsters my weapons could not touch, I swear to the gods!"
Long story short: I fully expect them to really, really suffer. This might be the first time they will actually get into big trouble.
Problem 1 might not be so bad - they have two (later three) tries to idedentify each day (cleric + sorcerer + the bard that will, again, follow later). They might consider buying some scrolls or a wand later.
Problem 2 might be a bigger issue since they are about to go up against a flying enemy (in conditions favoring him nontheless), but again, I'm not too concerned - they have the opportunity to flee the encounter or shift the battle to a environment more suited to their style of combat. Plus the paladin has a little god complex and I think it wouldn't be too bad to show him that there ARE monsters he can't do anything against with this attitude.
Problem 3 is the biggest one. A ranger with focus on ranged combet is just near useless in a dungeon without her arrows. She can go into melee, but that really isn't an ideal solution.
I thought up 4 possibilities:
- The dungeon as written has no arrows, but it wouldn't be too hard to just put them there. There are reasons for them to be there - the lord of the dungeon might be an avid hunter, for example. Or it's a hobby. Or one of the guards used an arrow and they called him Hawkeye.
- I offer her to use a hero point to just say "I bought another 200 arrows in town and they are on my mule.", basically using hero points for small retcons.
- I let them suck it up. They have to ride back into town to get more supplies.
- The bard brings an enormous amount of arrows with him once he follows. Because he just knows how ditzy the ranger tends to be and just figured she'd forget to buy arrows. (This is pretty much in character for both the ranger and her player, actuall...)
My favorite solution so far is the second one, but I'd really like to get some more input on this.
Thanks for reading this wall of text,
Blackbot
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Do not coddle the players or they will never learn. If you take away their sense of responsibility they will continue to lack foresight because they will just expect you to cover it for them.
I would be sure to early on point out the breakage/loss of fired arrows, and perhaps have a small cache of ammunition (no more than 10) be found... perhaps in an area with a corpse and a few broken/imbedded arrows... to draw attention to the situation, without blatant GM fiat. If it is early on in the dungeon, perhaps they will realize that they should ensure they are properly equipped.
Another option might be to have an old story teller lamenting about how, "We could have killed that dragon, I swear it! Iff'n the damned critter hadn't taken to the air where our blades did no good! Ever I hear tale of a critter like that again, I'll make sure we have enough arrows to turn it into a pincushion! That'll learn 'em.." In hopes that the party takes the hint.
Could have a traveling peddler or caravan nearby to facilitate them preparing themselves, if they think to do so.
But don't just do the party's thinking for them. If they never learn to be accountable for their own actions they will always come to expect you to do it for them.
They could run into a caravan in trouble right outside the dungeon while they are preparing to go I. They help them out ABC they offer them arrows and scrolls like "I noticed you didn't have any arrows in your quiver our ranger died earlier guess you can have his he always carried these dusty scrolls when ever he left town guess you can have them we ain't got button to identify them anyway"
You may not be aware of this but identify is not required to identify magic items. A spellcraft check is used to identify a magic item and the spell identify gives a +10 enhancement bonus to that check. Identify is handy because the check is 15+caster level but it is not necessary for the attempt to occur at all. Also remember arrows that strike their target can be salvaged 50% of the time so 20 arrows have a good chance of stretching out to 25 or 30 and even more if your ranger is lucky.
I don't think there's anything wrong with adding arrows a few at a time to treasure troves in the dungeon. This is prolly more useful than having a donkey with 200 arrows outside the entrance since that won't be much different than having a store with 200 arrows in town when your party is in the thick of it deep within the dungeon. You have the power as the DM to alter the adventure to suit your group's composition and equipment. I understand that you can't be too lenient otherwise the players get cocky and the game tends to be boring without true risk but, at the same time, you may find yourself awfully lonely on game nights if you are too punitive or hellbent on teaching them lessons rather than playing cooperatively with them.
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How does a level 6 ranger not have an efficient quiver filled with all sorts of arrows and handy haversack with a few more, just in case? At level 1, my ranger is carrying 40 arrows and he's still in Sandpoint.
I guess my days in WOW, back when you had to buy ammo taught me that you can never have too many arrows. Running out of ammo while in Black Temple is bad...bad. Especially, when you are the kiter. Also, all of you get off my lawn.
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Thanks for the answers so far, keep 'em coming! ;)
Fomsie: The ranger realized in the first combat about the upcoming shortage and restrained herself to firing two arrows a round. The story teller might come up later when they're back in town (just to rub salt in the wound), but the child already fell down the well. (I'm not sure how to translate this German figure of speech - it means that the problem already has arisen, it's too late to prevent it and now it must be dealt with). I like the idea with the caravan, though - especially since it's mentioned that the dungeon receives regular supplies from another town, so it might not be unreasonable that one of those arrives soon.
Count Coltello: I think that would make it too easy for them. As I said, the scrolls are not that important. And they are already on the dungeon's door step, so no meeting anyone before going in...
born of fire:: Apologies, I should have clarified that they already tried to identify the item without the spell. That's what I meant - they will succeed sooner or later since 2 party members have some ranks in spellcraft. Identify would just hurry up the process.
You are wrong on the arrows, though - they can be salvaged 50% of the time they do not hit their target. But since the ranger fired at enemies far higher than her most arrows either flew over their heads (and into the distance) or hit the stone wall they were using as cover and I kinda doubt that any arrow will be usable after that.
I like the idea of adding just a couple of arrows at a time and maybe letting her suffer for one combat. The donkey at the entrance would be pretty useful, though - it's the difference between riding back into town (~8h) or going back to the entrance of the dungeon (~10 Minutes max).
How does a level 6 ranger not have an efficient quiver filled with all sorts of arrows and handy haversack with a few more, just in case? At level 1, my ranger is carrying 40 arrows and he's still in Sandpoint.
I guess my days in WOW, back when you had to buy ammo taught me that you can never have too many arrows. Running out of ammo while in Black Temple is bad...bad. Especially, when you are the kiter. Also, all of you get off my lawn.
An Efficient Quiver would be the best answer but maybe the character has not had the opportunity to buy one yet--in which case some of the responsibility for this situation is the DM's--but you can't put sharp stuff in Haversacks or Bags of Holding, they will pierce and ruin the container from within.
40-60 arrows in mundane containers is reasonable imho. Any more than that and a DM's gotta wonder just where the heck you are carrying them all. Your WOW lessons don't translate all that well unless you have a permissive DM because WOW uses hammerspace (bag slots but no encumbrance or volume associated with those bags) so a hunter could reasonably carry 2000 arrows :p
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Forthepie: Bah, just use a gun like a proper dwarf should and be nice to your engineer and you can get ammo everywhere! ;)
You adress an interesting point, though - the loot so far wasn't too great for the ranger and she only just got her composite longbow +1, and even that only with donations from other party members. That might be something I could change. I asked them once to give me a list with all their magical equipment to get an overview about the walth by level, but you know how players are - I got a list from everybody but the ones I was really interested in ;)
Thinking about it...if she finds a full efficient quiver after a combat where she had no arrows at all...yeah, that would be awesome!
(I do read the item correctly: It's a quiver that I can fill with 60 arrows, right?)
Oops, you are correct: arrows that DON'T strike their target. Not sure how I missed that, sorry.
The donkey at the entrance thing might be a matter of playstyle. It will usually take too much time or it is flat out impossible due to a collapsed bridge, a sprung trap, a drop that would have to be climbed etc. to backtrack to the entrance to restock in most of my dungeoneering experience. Also there's the fact that my DM likes to have any pack animals we leave outside the entrance either devoured or stolen, most usually devoured, while they are unattended.
I'd second what Fomsie said - don't answer every question for the players or else they'll stop asking questions. If you're going to track ammo (as you have been through the game) then offer solutions with the understanding they might not take them. Follow the rule of 3 - give 3 or more clues to solving the same problem/mystery.
So the problems, as you see them, are identifying magic items, having ranged weapons and maintaining ammo for said ranged weapons. Well, there's a lot of ways to point these out to the party. The simplest of course is just to tell them. Barring that, consider the following:
- An NPC in the dungeon will do the work for a steep fee. This might be a positive OR negative experience; it's up to the party
- Offer hints of magic properties through other skill checks such as Knowledge: Arcana or History. For example if there is a +1 sword that the bard finds and they decide to use a knowledge check on it you might reveal that the device distorts the air around it as if by magic or that this is a sword of the fabled Iron Legion whose blades were all blessed by a deity.
- Have a villain taunt them for carrying some powerful item that they're not using. Don't have the villain reveal what the item is or does, just tease the party with the taunt.
- Place a source of knowledge like a journal, mural, or magic mouth that espouses a particular magic item's powers. Later have the PCs come across an item of similar description. Is it the right item? Identify and find out...
- The PC's find several thrown weapons in their treasure, or slings and bullets. These are sub-optimal but better than nothing. When later they round the corner and encounter the harpies, after making their saves they'll either be grateful or rueful of their choices...
- Leave signs of spent ranged ammo around the countryside and in the dungeon. A corpse with a sling bullet in the skull; a winged creature's carcass riddled with arrows; if they're following a trail one of their successful tracking rolls reveals that it was bleeding from a pair of crossbow bolts found on the ground.
- As Fomies said have an NPC espouse the usefulness of a ranged weapon in the dungeon.
- A ghost warns them to take heed and look to the sky for threat. The thing reveals the ghostly image of a broken bow then turns to leave; it's back is a horrible mess of rent flesh from where the dragon's claws tore them up in life.
- Have a peddler or minor NPC in/around the dungeon selling weak ranged weapons.
- Drop corpses with arrows on them
- Add arrows to treasure hordes
- Have someone selling arrows around the dungeon
- Villains out of melee can taunt the PCs for their lack of arrows
The point on all of these is to offer solutions without telling the PCs they have to pick one. If the party doesn't recognize they have a problem they'll never strive to fix it.
Last but not least, remind the players of their PC's skills. By level 6 I'm gonna say that someone's picked up a rank or 2 of Spellcraft. Force them to roll it if they handle a magic item, even if they're not detecting magic. This check might reveal something like it has a rune or obvious magic feature associated with magic items. Or else make the ranger roll craft: bowyer if they have the skill to perhaps identify some arrows they find on a corpse.
Once the players remember ALL the things their PCs can do they might be more inclined to use their abilities more prevalently.
As I understand it has 3 compartments first holding 60 second holding 18 third holding 6 for total of 84items
60arrows
18javalins (could be said can hold more arrows)
6bows or spears (GM can say more arrows)
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As for magic weapons....its a first level spell that any cleric can cast and that arcane types might know. Your Pcs can work together and figure that out.
The casters purchased some scrolls, but none of them with identify. This already bit them as they could not identify a pretty powerful staff.
That's definitely an oversight, but not one I'd worry about. It shouldn't be a game-killer unless there's a plot-critical McGuffin that the party must identify.
The ranger and the bard (who remained back in town and will follow) both have a bow and a back-up weapon for melee. Cleric, paladin and sorcerer don't. Oh, sure, the paladin has two or three melee weapons, but not even a lousy shortbow.
The Paladin is the only one that worries me there. The Cleric and especially the Sorcerer always have spellcasting to fall back on, so unless we're talking below level 5 (when spells per day are sharply limited) that's not a big issue.
My suggestion: drop a potion of fly as treasure somewhere and leave it at that. Honestly, though, it sounds like you've got a high enough level party that they should be equipped for flying and maybe even teleporting enemies, so the Paladin really shouldn't complain if such encounters come up.
The ranger bought arrows. 20 arrows. While fighting the guards it dawned on her that this might not be enough if you shoot 4 arrows a round. This is not a first with her, too - prior to this the group had to fight incorporeal beings and she had no magic weapon, not even an oil: magic weapon. The group received multiple warnings that place was "full of monsters my weapons could not touch, I swear to the gods!"
Yeah, that's definitely poor judgement. If this is a new player, just find a handy haversack filled with arrows as treasure somewhere. Otherwise, this player needs to suffer the consequences of their own actions.
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@Blackbot Dwarf you say? For the Horde!!--actually he is a dwarf now, if I was playing.
You don't just ram the arrows into the haversack, you put them quiver and all into the haversack, maybe wrapped in some cloth if you want to be all micromanaging....
I understand loot, but I think either the ranger isn't prioritizing their purchases correctly or you aren't close to the wealth for 6, which I understand, I am playing a low wealth game with my friends, so that does kinda hurt. An archery ranger should be looking at the bow first, which she has, the probably looking for that quiver. It's not super expensive. But firing multiple arrows each round is going to chew through them, pretty quick.
Oh and one other thing. There is an option for durable arrows, which aren't destroyed by normal use. They are more expensive, but perhaps worth it? And yeah you could rule that the javelin spot holds more arrows, perhaps they have to be moved from that spot to the arrow side, standard action...full round probably.
Doing the math. 6th level 2 attacks per full round, plus potentially Rapid Shot and Manyshot. You are looking at possibly 4 or 5 arrows in the air each round? Wow, 60 arrows isn't going to last long. Gonna need a bigger boat....or quiver.
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As for magic weapons....its a first level spell that any cleric can cast and that arcane types might know. Your Pcs can work together and figure that out.
As I said, they also could've bought oil or something. They didn't. They seem to be huge fans of learning by hindsight. It worked out, the ranger has a magic bow now - it was just a little example of the rangers general ditzyness. ;)
The Paladin is the only one that worries me there.
Me too. Since the sorcerer pretty much defaulted to "I start dancing" when he ran out of spells since level 1 I expected nothing more from him, honestly...;)
My suggestion: drop a potion of fly as treasure somewhere and leave it at that. Honestly, though, it sounds like you've got a high enough level party that they should be equipped for flying and maybe even teleporting enemies, so the Paladin really shouldn't complain if such encounters come up.
Now this is something interesting I'd really like more opinions about. As I already stated the group is level 6 and about to hit level 7 - is it really that commonplace to have means to fly around at this level? While the group fought some flying enemies, this is the first one with a ranged attack, so the I-can't-reach-him-problem did not come up so far. I'm hesitant about a potion: fly, though.
Yeah, that's definitely poor judgement. If this is a new player, just find a handy haversack filled with arrows as treasure somewhere. Otherwise, this player needs to suffer the consequences of their own actions.
I guess I'll stick with my plan to let her suffer through one encounter before giving her the ability to regain some arrows. A handy haversack might be a better idea than the quiver, even - the group still has no bag of holding or alike.
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I understand loot, but I think either the ranger isn't prioritizing their purchases correctly or you aren't close to the wealth for 6, which I understand, I am playing a low wealth game with my friends, so that does kinda hurt.
Well, after roughly calculating their wealth they do hit their WBL more or less - it's just not very evenly distributed. The paladin wields a keen longsword +1 they found since level 4, for example. That's a reason I want the lists from them, to even this out a little.
Oh and one other thing. There is an option for durable arrows, which aren't destroyed by normal use.
Looked it up at D20PFSRD - those are from Elves of Golarion. I do not own this book and as I said, I want to keep complexity to a minimum.
Doing the math. 6th level 2 attacks per full round, plus potentially Rapid Shot and Manyshot. You are looking at possibly 4 or 5 arrows in the air each round?
You are right, I somehow misremembered. Your assumption is dead on (not bad for horde scum! ;) ), but early on she abandoned her last attack each round to save arrows.
Back me up Paizonians, since I'm new to PFS, but by what level are Pathfinders supposed to have a means to deal with Flying, Swarms, Darkness and Invisibility? I want to say 6-7 but I'm not sure. But IMO yes; by now you should have some flight/levitation in the party.
Also the sorcerer shouldn't "run out of spells;" they have cantrips. By 6th level I'd expect my players not to run out of much. Food & water: spells and skills; ammo: spells and gear to have enough beforehand, or Craft skills, Mending or Make Whole (worst case) for after the fact; spells in general: scrolls, potions and wands should be sourced or there should be an arcane/divine crafter in the group by now.
You see where I'm going with this? Consider; if the ranger had all his arrows Arcane Marked, then after a fight the arrows were found (even the broken ones) and finally as the ammo began running out the party took a few hours to hole up somewhere they could use Mending to repair the spent arrows. This should mean that, unless camping in the dungeon = constant attacks by wandering monsters then they have a reasonable time of maintaining their gear.
I think its critical at this level that the players begin gathering serious intel before they go into dungeons and have answers to these kinds of questions. This seems to be the point of your thread though. My answers and the solutions of others though are a good start to advising this critical thinking in game. You might however get a list of basic questions and ask them of your party before they press deeper into this dungeon. Questions like:
- How will you feed yourselves?
- How will you deal with diverse monster types and defenses. Specifically flying, magical darkness, invisibility and traits like Incorporeal or Swarm?
- How will you maintain your gear?
- How do you intend to get in and out of the dungeon?
- Are there any tools/gear/spells/resources you feel you need to not just fight the monsters but also hold treasure found or navigate the dungeon?
Consider; if the ranger had all his arrows Arcane Marked, then after a fight the arrows were found (even the broken ones) and finally as the ammo began running out the party took a few hours to hole up somewhere they could use Mending to repair the spent arrows.
While this is an awesomely fun-sounding idea that I totally want to try now ... by strict RAW, ammunition doesn't gain the broken condition but is "destroyed or rendered useless" so mending might not work, per table variance.
...by what level are Pathfinders supposed to have a means to deal with Flying, Swarms, Darkness and Invisibility?
Flying, Swarms, and Darkness. I have seen all three in 1st level adventures. Flying and darkness aren't too terrible, but swarms can really ruin a party's day.
See invisibility is a 2nd level spell so... 3rd level?
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It's not too much of a guess, actually. I've got a couple rangers, so I have the feats planned out and such, I even looked up my spreadsheet to verify the feats possible.
Ranger could make her own, if she's got the profession for it, or some ranks in craft bow..
I think the idea of them suffering for one fight might be a good idea. Pretty much all your characters should want a handy haversack and the ranged folks would want the quiver.
Fly is 3rd level Wizard spell, so..(looks it up)so 5th to cast. Sorc may be one level behind.
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Learning by hindsight is perfectly fine for a group made up of novices (you mentioned it's their first major dungeon away from civilization).
like more opinions about. As I already stated the group is level 6 and about to hit level 7 - is it really that commonplace to have means to fly around at this level? While the group fought some flying enemies, this is the first one with a ranged attack, so the I-can't-reach-him-problem did not come up so far. I'm hesitant about a potion: fly, though.
I'd let him find a sling and bullets instead of a potion, especially if he's a bit overconfident. That'll let him participate in the encounter but still feel the sting of overconfidence + underpreparedness.
EDIT@ Forthepie: just because the sorcerer is at the level to cast Fly doesn't mean it's on his spells known. The party is certainly assumed to be able to deal with flying encounters by this level, but that frequently means ranged weapons and spells rather than joining their opponents in the air (and giving the whole party flight isn't feasible at this level).
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Talk to them. Unless you tell the players that they need +1 weapons by 4th-level they won't know. You sound as if you're more experienced than your players. It's not a good idea to let them fight incorporeal creatures without magic weapons; they'll just get frustrated.
It is not their first encounter with incorporeal beings - the first time around they quickly figured out how to deal with them. The ranger just did not go from "There are incorporeal enemies ahead" to "I need a magic weapon this time". Well, actually she did, but only when they entered the area.
This is a bit of a first world problem. Unfortunately, the PC who could have had that spell is a sorcerer and not a wizard. A Scroll of Identify costs a lot, and inexperienced players might not think they need the spell.
25gp is hardly a lot. Not something you use everyday, but something you should have just in case you need it.
At least the lack of arrows dawned on them. PCs aren't expected to have +1 weapons until 4th-level, and at that level they're expected to have them. They're level 6 so they should have them, but these players sound so inexperienced that they probably need you to tell them this. Players might not even understand the Big Six unless you tell them about that.
This is an interesting point I didn't even consider, actually. I would not call myself experienced, though. I have one PFS character on level 3, played in an online campaign which really had little to no connection to WBL (one magic item per character on level 7, and not a weapon at that) and this is the first campaign I ever GMed, so I learn along with them.
I do, however, crawl the forums a lot, so I guess my overview is a little better than theirs. While I do not want to spoil their fun by telling them "Guys, this is the way to play - stick to it!" I will consider to give them more advice ingame. Some tales at the campfire and all that. Maybe sprinkled with some horrific deaths of the narrator's friends.
The identify situation is usually not a big deal unless they need to use the item right away. They can always try detect magic again the next day.
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An Efficient Quiver would be the best answer but maybe the character has not had the opportunity to buy one yet--in which case some of the responsibility for this situation is the DM's--but you can't put sharp stuff in Haversacks or Bags of Holding, they will pierce and ruin the container from within.
Not entirely correct. My Zen Archer in Legacy of Fire carried over 1000 cold iron arrows in his bag of holding.
I agree you can't simply dump pointy weapons into a bag of holding or handy haversack, but you can store them in such. You simply have to store them properly. A sword in a sheath won't puncture the bag. Arrows in quivers which are then wrapped in canvas are safe. With the arrows, it does mean that you cannot normally take them out in a tactical situation and use them as you have to pull them out, unwrap the bundle and equip the quiver, but they're fine for general storage.
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I'd second what Fomsie said - don't answer every question for the players or else they'll stop asking questions. ...
This. But I don't make it sink-or-swim either.
.So I would let them discover a single scroll of identify. But they will have to choose which item they use it on.
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They fight some goblins. About 1/5 of the goblins have a bow and 7 arrows. Any arrows the goblins don't use up in the fight, the ranger can use. Course they are lousy quality goblin arrows and have a -2 to hit and -1 on damage. So which opponents get lousy goblin arrows and which merit the shrinking number of good arrows.
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Ranged weapons. They can find all sorts of ranged weapons they don't like on bodies. The paladin can carry a bandolier of star knives that he found on some rogue that tried to stab him. And a dark creeper had a blow gun with half a dozen poisoned darts.
Heck last week we laughed in hysterics at a fighter that was running around the battle field and picking up the dead mook's longswords and throwing those at a -4 to hit at the spider kin crawling on the ceiling and throwing darts at him. (He got separated from the group.)
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Advice on another similar thread:
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Actually this issues is not all that uncommon for some veteran players and is almost universal for new players. Everyone has this tendency to want to save all their money for the ultimate wizbang that they that really, really want. But doing that can make it so you don’t survive long enough to get it.
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I think the best way to combat this is to get them to read some of the GUIDES for advice. For some reason if their friend tells them this is a good idea, they won’t believe it. But if they read it from some stranger then it must be true.
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There are certain things that I firmly believe almost every character should get at least 1 or 2 levels BEFORE they think they are at a level to need it. Alchemist fire and acid for swarms. Wand of cure light wounds (or infernal healing) Oils of daylight, align weapon, and magic weapon. Potions of remove disease, remove curse, remove blindness, neutralize poison, lesser restoration, and restoration. Ghost salts for incorporeals. Weapons and/or ammo that are blunt, piercing, and slashing. Weapons and/or ammo that are silver, cold iron, adamantine.
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If you never use it? So what? It really didn’t cost you all that much. But most characters will need all or nearly all of those at some point in their career. Whenever I use up one of those, I immediately buy at least 2 more of them.
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Yes, there are character concepts that don’t want to carry around a tool box of gear. But then that character needs to think about, consider, and develop tactics to deal with those situations that make such items needful.
I once had a sorcerer that had that gear minimalist mindset. But I had spells to get me through almost all of those situation. And I paid for a contingency teleport (long before the level where I cast it) to a temple where I had already arranged and paid for healing from almost any potential condition.
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I have a martial character that is only 4th level. He uses a MW bastardsword as his primary weapon. He will eventually be switching to a magic adamantine bastard sword. But he carries a MW cold iron morning star and masterwork silver dagger. He has adamantine weapon blanch already applied to a quiver of arrows. He has scrolls or potions of all of those already in his gear. The only one he doesn’t have yet is ghost salts. That is at 4th level. No matter what shows up, I can still fight it. Recently we had a fight with a minor demon DR 10/cold iron and small golem DR 5/adamantine. I beat down the demon with the morningstar and then backed up while shooting the golem with arrows. I did better than ½ the damage to kill both targets even though I didn’t use my weapon of choice. Mine was the only character in the party that could effectively fight both of them. One of the characters didn’t really have a decent chance to fight either of them. He basically had to roll a crit or max damage to get past the DR.
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Have a talk with your players entirely out of character. Explain that ‘these’ are the kinds of things that any well equipped adventurer should have on hand very early in his career. Or needs to make plans to get by without (hoping its not needed doesn’t count).
it seems like there's a lot of good advice here already, on thing i haven't really seen specifically addressed here yet is expected wealth by level (though, admittedly, i didn't carefully read every post)... the average wealth of a 6th level character is 16,000 gold! so if you're ranger just got a +1 composite longbow (2,500g i think) and only has a couple hundred gold (unless she's also decked out in other items you didn't mention) part of the blame here is on you GM...
yes, if you're a ranged focused ranger you need to make arrows a priority but in a very low wealth campaign her ditzy-/forgetfulness may be exacerbated by fear of spending too much of her very small amount of gold and/or concerns about how she'll carry all her ammo if she bought a ton but doesn't have a magical quiver or backpack to store them in.
CRs are set for a party of 4 with around average wealth by level, so a CR6 creature is designed for a party whose ranger has something like: +1 bow, +2 belt of Dex, +2 light armor, an efficient quiver, a +1 resist cloak, a cold iron backup/melee weapon, and 2000+ gold worth of expendables (arrows, magic weapon oils, potions of cure/see invis/fly/etc, wand of CLW, and those sorts of things). now, granted, an experienced party with well made PCs can get by with less (as can parties with extra people, to some extent) but that's the general idea.
if you're purposely playing a low wealth game you should talk to the players about what that means and how they can wisely function in it; if it was an accident (because you didn't realize how much they 'should' have, or wanted to limit their options but didn't consider the consequences) maybe consider adding a party of well-equipped corpses just inside that fell prey to some magic ward that otherwise would have killed the party (that way you can bring them closer to normal wealth but also remind them of their mortality).
edit: or, if they have an appropriate amount of wealth and you just didn't mention any of the rest of her gear, ignore everything i said and mercilessly run the dungeon until they need to flee back to town to restock and try again- there's really no excuse for a character with 16,000g not to have enough arrows.
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Greetings again!
In case you are still interested in this old thread I think it's only fair I tell you how it all played out.
First of all: nate lange, you are half right. While the average wealth of the group as awhole is indeed 16,000 GP per character (well, more or less), it's not really equally distributed. This might play into the problem.
So let's see what I did and how it played out!
- Lack of arrows: It turned out I underestimated the ditziness (is that even a word?) of our ranger. While it is true she has only 20 arrows left she did neither count the 40 blunt arrows nor the 40 silver arrows. Her argument? "They are too precious." Of course they are! 20 blunt arrows cost twice as much as a normal one - 2 GP for 20 arrows instead of 1GP! So yeah. Problem banned cause it wasn't really a problem.
- Lack of equipment: Fixed this slightly. I added an efficient quiver, a handy haversack and a headband of alluring charisma to the loot. This will be balanced out by some other loot that's removed from the adventure (or that they won't get to keep, at least - it's borrowed stuff the module assumes they keep, but giving it back to balance out the added stuff seems like an okay change).
- Lack of planning: I talked to my group and they decided they wanted to go ahead as we did up until this point - no "coaching" before fights, but a little explanation after fights what would've been a good idea to avoid problems that ocurred like "Maybe you should carry a bow to fight a flying monster next time!". I also noted the next adventure has a hunter who admires adventurers, so he might tell them some stories or ask questions to give them some ideas ("Tell me! How would you solve problem X?" or "You only got one weapon? I heard of adventurers carrying four of them, to have the right one in every combat!"). I also commented of them not needing the bladeguard the ranger (of all people!) carried when fighting rust monsters since got slaughtered before they were really able to affect their gear which resulted in a "Wait. The ranger carries WHAT? Why didn't we know?!" - so yay on communication.
- Learned lessons: They learned "Sometimes you gotta flee" pretty much on their own when a huge flying monster attacked them on a bridge over a huge chasm. So there's that. Also the frustration of not being able to identify items (2/4 items they found that day are still unidentified) might lead them to buying Scrolls:Identify pretty soon. So yay again.
Again, thank you all very much for your help.
(Note on the side: We decided to just ignore different sizes on arrows to spare us the headache. It just seems like it's not worth it, honestly - based on logic her quiver had to be small as well then, and found magic items should be small as well etc. pp. No, not getting into THAT discussion! ;) )
The casters purchased some scrolls[;] none of them with identifyThey need identify, why? It is a spellcraft check to identify items, the only requirement is to cast Detect Magic first. One check per day, so on average after 20 days they should be able to identify all of their items unless they cannot identify it on a roll of a 20. If they absolutely need a +10 or +20 to identify then you are probably throwing items that are WAY too powerful for them at them.
Cleric, paladin and sorcerer don't [have] even a lousy shortbow.So? Paladin's job is to fight melee things! Shooting is the Ranger's job! The group can probably use the terrain to avoid ranged attacks from hitting them, or just go prone and double crawl forward. -5 to hit makes the PCs usually almost unhittable, doubly so if they are total defensing at well for a grand total of +9 AC vs ranged attacks. The Sorcerer is essentially a mobile short-bow. They have spells for a reason.
The ranger bought arrows. 20 arrows.This is a problem for ~you,~ why? The PCs can just climb back out of the dungeon, walk back to town, buy more arrows, and then come back...for the ambush that is waiting for them.
Long story short: I fully expect them to really, really suffer. This might be the first time they will actually get into big trouble.Tee hee hee. Collect their tears into a cup, and SAVOR THEM!
Problem 1 might not be so bad - they have two (later three) tries to idedentify each day (cleric + sorcerer + the bard that will, again, follow later). They might consider buying some scrolls or a wand later.So they don't identify the item and throw it away or pawn it. So what? If it is so vitally important that they ~need~ it then you should just give it to them right out. Perhaps it is an item that was alluded to when they were somewhere getting the beginning of their quest. There is the issue of the PCs making mistakes, but then there is the DM's heavy handedness dictating what must be done without telling the PCs what must be done. It is sort of like if the PCs never say "We loot the bodies." If you leave an insanely important item on a corpse and the PCs never get it and therefore are unable to complete the adventure because it is on a corpse that they killed five in-game years ago then you failed as a DM because now they literally cannot proceed without Deus Ex Machina. If the item is important then they figure it out sooner or later. If it is important RIGHT NOW then they figure it out RIGHT NOW. It doesn't matter how or why if it helps the story not get stuck.
Problem 2 might be a bigger issue since they are about to go up against a flying enemy (in conditions favoring him nontheless), but again, I'm not too concerned - they have the opportunity to flee the encounter or shift the battle to a environment more suited to their style of combat. Plus the paladin has a little god complex and I think it wouldn't be too bad to show him that there ARE monsters he can't do anything against with this attitude.I bet your flying monster has to come down to attack, yes? If it is not all ranged then "I ready my action to full attack it when it comes down" or "I'm going to ready my action to jump on it, grapple it, and then bear it to the ground when it enters a threatened square or a square adjacent to a threatened square that I can reach with a five foot step!" Encourage your players to be over-the-top and ridiculous, it is just more fun when everyone has an over-blown personality.
Problem 3 is the biggest one. A ranger with focus on ranged combet is just near useless in a dungeon without her arrows. She can go into melee, but that really isn't an ideal solution.Again, this is a problem for you, why? The ranger will run out of arrows, then go back to town to buy more.
I thought up 4 possibilities:
Don't help your players along unless you are taking it out of the treasure. Its fine and dandy to place the Wands of Identify and arrows in the dungeon if they are coming out of the treasure of the dungeon. In fact one of my favorite things to do is to put loot in dungeons that will help players defeat the dungeon, but since all that cool stuff is, literally, the treasure they are there to get using it to make the dungeon easy mode means they get reduced cash.
One of the major things that teaches players about "all their bad decisions" is death. Raise dead isn't cheap, and needing to sell peoples gear or indebt themselves to the town for raising their friend--and therefore being the town's personal "heroes" for a while--is a fairly big event in a character's life. Then again it can also be a nice plot point. The town gives their new heroes gear owning the town's ensignia, gives them a way or bounty for "undertakings of the land" and so forth. Plus you can just fast forward through it by saying, "you spend four years as the leaders of the town guard, and through it all you always felt the steady tug of your master/mistress on the leash. However, you've paid off your debt to <town> and are free from the shackles of debt. Oh, yeah, by the way, everyone aged four years."
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I got an idea from an AP we played part of, which helped without coaching the players. Allow some intelligence gathering, like finding rumors, reading through the local library or some books the apothecary or mayor might have. Through knowledge checks (or Diplomacy for rumors) you can give them some information. Such as:
it is rumored ghosts live here
there are a pack of flying harpies/monsters that guard the entrance.
etc
this way they can prepare, but not be handed information. And you don't have to RP it out you can just roll if you want.
I'll also generate any magic potions or scrolls that are available beforehand and just show them the list. It's easier on us both, and they can say "ooh identify, almost forgot about that!" after all I assume a character will not know all the potential spells out there like players do.
Casters don't need identify to identify magic items. They can do so with detect magic and a Spellcraft check. At 6th level, a caster should have at least a +13 Spellcraft (maybe lower if a sorcerer). They should be able to identify anything with a CL 8 or lower by taking 10.
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Typical. As soon as someone posts a conclusion to a thread there are popping up answers to the initial question which has long been answered...*grins*
Taku Ooka: I have to disagree with you. While a paladin may choose to focus on melee I do think he should have options for enemies he can't reach. Either he works out how to reach them (which may be impossible without the aid of a fly-spell or alike) or he will just be a second class supporter for that combat. Also no, the flying enemy uses a bow as his primary weapon.
Your other suggestions are cool (aging four years and all that), but it would not work because the adventure is a little time critical. Not overly so, but a bit. And if the ranger ran out of arrows (which she doesn't need to as I wrote in the post just before yours) it would be a pretty annoying thing to spend 2 days to get new ones.
Victor: If I told her "just assume infinite arrows" she would be pretty sad. For some reason that's one of the things she loves to do, crossing off arrows, trails, rolling for missed arrows etc. Who am I to rob her of her hobby to do this? ;)
And as the example states - it appears to be not so negligable after all since running out of arrows still is an option. Though again: Now that I know she has not 20, but 100 arrows (in varying forms) left that problem is pretty much gone.
Cyrad: You are the third or fourth person to point out how identifying works ;) And I will just say two little things I did not say already:
1. I assume this is not as much of an issue as I thought it would be. Just because it would bug ME as a PC not to know what kind of magic item I have in front of me doesn't have to mean it bugs THEM.
Still, I think they will buy some scrolls next time in town.
2. "at least a +13 spellcraft". How on earth do you want to reach +13 without taking a feat for that? 6 ranks + class skill = 9, so you assume every caster has an Int-Bonus of +4? Sorry, but no. A +9, maybe a +10 is more likely. Less for our cleric since he has only two ranks per level and spreads them a bit.
Taku Ooka: I have to disagree with you. While a paladin may choose to focus on melee I do think he should have options for enemies he can't reach. Either he works out how to reach them (which may be impossible without the aid of a fly-spell or alike) or he will just be a second class supporter for that combat. Also no, the flying enemy uses a bow as his primary weapon.
Your other suggestions are cool (aging four years and all that), but it would not work because the adventure is a little time critical. Not overly so, but a bit. And if the ranger ran out of arrows (which she doesn't need to as I wrote in the post just before yours) it would be a pretty annoying thing to spend 2 days to get new ones.
My point was to offer that such was the paladin's mentality, not my opinion as to what he should do. Typically a bow, xbow, or sling is usually a minimum as to what a non-offensive casting character should have, and weapons are always better than cantrips in terms of raw lethality--in other words the casters should have a light Xbow to shoot with since it does more damage, and they can be 60 - 80 feet away instead of within charging distance.--
If you do end up going with the time elapse then part of the PCs' call to adventure by the town's master(s) can end up working towards your plot hooks.It is a cheesy, yet effective, way to get the PCs things that they cannot afford.
Lets say the PCs were paid NPC money. Typically mercenaries are paid 5-sp/day. However the PCs have heroic levels and are not the typical mercenaries or town guard. Instead pay them 3-gp, and let them make a profession, skill, or class level check on top of that to make more money to pay towards their debt. The one they are indebted to might give them housing and food, so go ahead and treat this as part of the character's cost of living.
You can easily just use the following. If the PCs are making roughly 90-gp a month, and are also making profession/skill/class level checks per week to make extra money it is easy to assume they are going to make enough to live in the Wealthy bracket. They don't make any money to put in their pockets, but they gain a good living that is paying off their debt. Assume if they choose Destitute that they are making actual payments towards their debt, as in they get money and must spend it on it. For everything else assume 1/3 is going to debt since the town's leaders are paying for the PCs lodging while charging them for it at a reduced price.
Raise Dead costs 5,000 gp.
Name(Cost gp/month):(Amount paid to debt)(minimum months to pay off: Time in years)
Destitute (0 gp/month): (0 gp)(∞)
Poor (3 gp/month): (1 gp)(5,000: 416.7 years)
Average (10 gp/month): (3 gp)(1666.7: 138.9 years)
Wealthy (100 gp/month): (30 gp)(166.7: 13.9 years)
Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): (300 gp)(16.7: 1.4 years)
So the timeframe I gave, four years, is no where near what they would end up giving in terms of years. However, this is on an individual basis. If a party of 4 is working at the debt and all contributing 30 gp a month then they debt will be paid off in 41.7 months or 3.5 years.
An adventurer's primary source of income is treasure, and his primary purchases are tools and items he needs to continue adventuring—spell components, weapons, magic items, potions, and the like. Yet what about things like food? Rent? Taxes? Bribes? Idle purchases?Destitute (0 gp/month): The PC is homeless and lives in the wilderness or on the streets. A destitute character must track every purchase, and may need to resort to Survival checks or theft to feed himself.
Poor (3 gp/month): The PC lives in common rooms of taverns, with his parents, or in some other communal situation—this is the lifestyle of most untrained laborers and commoners. He need not track purchases of meals or taxes that cost 1 sp or less.
Average (10 gp/month): The PC lives in his own apartment, small house, or similar location—this is the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 1 gp or less from his home in 1d10 minutes, and need not track purchases of common meals or taxes that cost 1 gp or less.
Wealthy (100 gp/month): The PC has a sizable home or a nice suite of rooms in a fine inn. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 5 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes, and need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 10 gp.
Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 25 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes. He need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 100 gp.
Speaking of PC wealth at low levels, since I read Nate's post, I tend to run a campaign as slightly low wealth, but encourage item creation feats and skills. This usually means one person makes a dedicated crafter who doubles as a healer, skill money, or combat specialist who doesn't need feats as much as class skills. More often than not this character can go for a wide berth of abilities. Sometimes it is a witch or a wizard, other times it is a Cleric or a druid, but also it can be a sorcerer or oracle. Familiared characters can take advantage of the Valet familiar archetype to make twice as much magic per day, and others can just be good at it.
All of my dungeons have 1.3 - 1.7 times the wealth that the PCs would normally get--due to how treasure wealth works--and usually most of it is useful items the PCs can use right now or sell for half value later. Sometimes there is a money horde or treasures they can sell for full value, but it is not something to be counted on. In general they will be between 65% to 140% WBL.