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At the point he breaks the Paladin Code.
Which he has not even come close to doing yet.
Unless you wanna be a real hardass and say that playing poker (and thus bluffing, AKA lying) makes him fall.
There's no clause in the Paladin Code that says "A Paladin falls if he fails to buy a drink for his friends or wins at poker and then leaves."
You may be confusing it with the Bro Code.
The paldin is held to these things closer than any holy man, but that may not be enough to make him fall from graces.
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There was a paladin in one of my games that used his immunity to disease and his high charisma to sleep with EVERYTHING. What I'm trying to say is that being a paladin isn't "I have to be the best of all people all the time" it can simply be someone who's strength in faith and his strength in arm allows him to do what he does. Restricting a player because his paladin is bit of a twit is one thing, however having a paladin fall because of it has bigger ramifications.
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Rynjin got the right of it. Nothing about being a Paladin means you have to be a nice guy, or even a decent guy. Lawful Good can be ugly, rude, dirty, obscene, etc...
Paladins DO have to be held to higher standereds tho and if your being an ass with one or two buttocks you are going to have to pay the price.
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Why is taking winnings from gambling "morally ambiguous"?
Unless he's cheating, there's nothing morally ambiguous about it.
These people (and him) wagered money on the outcome of a game.
He won.
By rights, the money is his.
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well then paladins are f&*#ed at your table (no offense to you)Non taken! Each game is different. Ours is very harsh, which for us, works.
I want to keep it harsh, but enjoyable. Since this Paladin is of Erastil, he'd be cool to visit a brothel and get drunk on a day of rest. However, if it had been less than 7 days, and he took the custom of two "companions" to over indulge (as the sourcerer likes to) then I'd punish him.
Lose his powers for a day, unless he repented and worked as a farm hand until exhausted.
Ummm... What? Good means no more than one hooker a day?
It a fair point community comes befor everthing with Erastil and to take from it with out giving back is breacking a teant. If i may quoet from Faiths of Purity "My community comes first, and i will contribute to it all that i can. If i don't give back, who will".
Ummm... What? Good means no more than one hooker a day?
well then paladins are f&*#ed at your table (no offense to you)Non taken! Each game is different. Ours is very harsh, which for us, works.
I want to keep it harsh, but enjoyable. Since this Paladin is of Erastil, he'd be cool to visit a brothel and get drunk on a day of rest. However, if it had been less than 7 days, and he took the custom of two "companions" to over indulge (as the sourcerer likes to) then I'd punish him.
Lose his powers for a day, unless he repented and worked as a farm hand until exhausted.
A hooker a day keeps the cleric away.... or coming back for reapet bussines it depends .....
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Because it is pay without work.
...So?
Because the other men at the table may have bet more than they could afford, and it will harm their families and community.
So the Paladin is responsible for other men being irresponsible?
Why?
Also, is this the actual case, or are you just inserting a random hypothetical in an attempt to prove some kind of point?
Because it is not inherently good, like raising a barn.
Ignoring for a moment the baffling statement that raising a barn is inherently good...so what?
"Not inherently good" and "morally ambiguous" are not the same thing.
Eating a potato is not inherently good either. Are you saying the Paladin should fall for being a spud lover?
Also, how in the hell is raising a barn an inherently good act?
The money is indeed his, but the deeper implications relating to Erastil were not considered.
Show me where Erastil cares about gambling, please.
TBQH Erastil might actually have a problem with barn raising (and thus contributing to the advance of modern civilization), not gambling.
Or even breaking one of his Paladin Code tenets "I must offer the poor in my community assistance, but I may not do the work for them".
Should he give the money back to each gambler, then it was simply a game, of no negative consequence, played at a festival.
Yes, if he did that, that would be the case.
But that's not the case. It was a poker game where everyone involved, in full knowledge, wagered money.
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This is a classic example of how some GM's can't handle having a paladin at the table.
In all fairness, that player should be advised to reroll another class before he becomes attached to his character.
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Mulet, you are a very confused person.
The head scratcher I have is drinking is a just as much as vice as gambling, and yet you want to punish for engaging in one (gambling) and not the other (encouraging someone to drink, a reward without work).
You are being Harsh and Inconsistent. You are probably better just going live and let live or have the Player roll another character.
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And when is it OK for a Paladin to resolve moral crisis with the concept of "Not my problem"?
I'm having some trouble finding where it says that a paladin must become mired in every moral crisis that passes his ken. Also, if he is being told that he must intervene every time he becomes aware of a moral crisis when is he going to adventure?
I really think Paladins are over-analyzed. That said, these actions could be two things.
1.) He's not a "kind" person, but strictly speaking, still a righteous one. I think you can play a Paladin that is kind of a jerk and still be Good and Just. A Paladin might keep other's money that he won because he knows the idiots are just going to gamble it away and at least he's %100 on the good cause. Now it will be put to literally good use.
2.) The player is just playing himself as a paladin. This happens a lot - especially when people use RPG's as a way to act out as themselves in a fantasy environment. They do all the things they would do if they literally were that person. Their name and class are just a way to let them escape. We had a guy we used to play with who'd always do this. He was short, so his characters were always huge and would kill and have sex with everything (sometimes both.)
I actually don't have a problem with this (the playing yourself as every character part) but if others are expecting more characterization in their role playing, it can come across as a lazy.
At the end of the day, evil isn't just an absence of good. And many times there are several good choices. Just because a paladin doesn't do the most good thing the DM thinks should be done, that doesn't mean he deserves to fall.
But his roleplay is half assed, considering that one screw up can land him in the position of an Ex-Paladin.
Is he having fun playing his half-assed paladin?
If so then what is the problem?Try this: Keep a tally of his Paladin-esque things and non-paladin-esque things. Tell him that he is allowed 3 or more non-paladin-esque strikes before he falls. Also, inform him that he is able to erase strikes by doing pointedly good things. He can bank negative points if he does lots of goodly things, and there is no limit to what he can bank.
This incentivises him to do good things since it means that if he has to be an jerk or very unpaladin like that he wont instantly fall. He will have a buffer.
But his roleplay is half assed, considering that one screw up can land him in the position of an Ex-Paladin.Is he having fun playing his half-assed paladin?
If so then what is the problem?
Try this: Keep a tally of his Paladin-esque things and non-paladin-esque things. Tell him that he is allowed 3 or more non-paladin-esque strikes before he falls. Also, inform him that he is able to erase strikes by doing pointedly good things. He can bank negative points if he does lots of goodly things, and there is no limit to what he can bank.
I'm not sure that creating a special mechanic is a good idea - especially when it's not in the rules. The player is going to feel like you're at best being their nanny, and at worst, forcing them into your idea of how they need to play. And it's ultimately unnecessary since The rules are already in place:
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
The OP needs to sit down and decide what either believes is truly an evil act and what this paladin's code actually is. You don't fall because you weren't "good enough" or didn't accrue enough good acts for that day. You fall when you "willingly commit an evil act."
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Not every paladin is going to be nice, kind, or lawful stupid. Heck, you couldn't make me play one even if you offered to pay me. Different from Lancelot doesn't necessarily mean bad wrong.
Ref: Sparhawk and Bazhell Bahnakson
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I'm not sure that creating a special mechanic is a good idea - especially when it's not in the rules. The player is going to feel like you're at best being their nanny, and at worst, forcing them into your idea of how they need to play. And it's ultimately unnecessary since The rules are already in place:
The OP needs to sit down and decide what either believes is truly an evil act and what this paladin's code actually is. You don't fall because you weren't "good enough" or didn't accrue enough good acts for that day. You fall when you "willingly commit an evil act."A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Lets hope the OP's idea of paladins isn't "You do something I don't like, you fall. Also, you are not allowed to make another character, you are stuck with this glorified NPC class."
Do this:
Because a fallen Paladin is a glorified Warrior and NPC classes are at -1 level give him a free level in Warrior if he falls to balance his character power out with the rest of the characters.
However, when he atones or retrains to something else he loses the NPC class.
You could just have his god summon him a Phylactery of Faithfulnessthat is slotless so he is aware if he is doing anything that would make him fall before he does it.
This is so if he does fall he makes the conscious decision to fall.
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(Edit: Deleted unhelpful moral analysis.)
Ask your player how they justify their actions. If their reasoning is plausible--even if you don't agree with it based on your own subjective idea of what "good" is--go with it. if the outcome is neutral, it isn't evil, so it doesn't break the code. (See above potato.). Otherwise, you're forcing the player to play "Guess My Moral Philosophy" when the paladin should already know what his code is before the game even starts.
Best scenario: When a player says they want to play a paladin, ask them to write their own code, consistent with but more specific than the CRB rules. Work with them until you both agree that the result is satisfactory, especially given the deity (if any) in question. After that, anything that doesn't violate that specific set of rules is prima facie A-OK.
Too many games with paladins devolve into a GM-player spat about what a paladin really is, or what good is. I've seen paladin arguments devolve into modern political mudslinging and ruin otherwise good tables. Sometimes the GM is looking for an excuse to make the paladin fall. Sometimes the player is trolling and has no intentiom of playing a paladin even by his own standards. And sometimes the other players decide to appoint themselves adjudicators of the One True Paladin Code even though have no business doing so.
So give the player the benefit of the doubt unless they're obviously trolling, and if you can't do that, at least give their paladin one of those cheap magic items that warns them when they're about to break their code so they don't have to walk on eggshells at your table. The code is supposed to make the game more fun, not turn it into a stereotypical family reunion argument.
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This what I mean Rynjin, we've got a long moral debate of equally valid points of view. A true Paladin would not touch such a thing with a 10 foot pole, due to the severity of their good alignment.
Are you saying the Paladin should fall for being a spud lover?Were such a potato harvested from a farm, who's ownership had be transferred by an act of evil deceit, then such a potato would be considered symbolic of such evil, and not to be eaten.
==> Begin "Returning the farm" side quest. (Improv)
You know there are no materials for Gambling laid out in black and white, ergo such information must be inferred. Addiction to gambling tears apart families, and can fund the slothful and overindulgent individuals that have mastered the sport. Take the money out, and it goes back to being a simple game.
The context of the barn, was one of work. A place to store beasts of burden, not a decadent horse brothel. And the poor could raise more, after he directly assists in the first. Guiding their hands as they hammer nails, and pull ropes.
I'm enjoying the fervor of your debate. I'll be using these points to back up the Paladin with my co-GM. Someone has to stand up for him.
We've reached the point of ludicrousness now.
It seems to me you're going out of your way to interpret any given action as evil in some manner, except the ones it would suit you not to be.
You can just as easily twist the scenarios the other way.
If gambling CAN result in addiction and tearing families apart, therefore all gambling is evil, then that same logic can be applied to your barn raising...if the owners of a barn are capable of mistreating their animals, that means barns are evil, and helping to raise one is contributing to said evil.
This position is one untenable for normal function in human society.
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Paladins are holy warriors, not glorified social workers. It's their job to smite evil, particularly grand supernatural evil. Social work is for clerics and inquisitors.
It's not that paladins should be indifferent to the suffering of others - they should definitely have compassion - but they have a responsibility to keep the dragons and undead at bay, so that other people can help the poor in peace.
Paladins aren't required to be cheerful or friendly. They're required to be Good, Lawful and to abstain from Evil. You don't have to be nice to do any of that.
Being an embodiment of LG means that you know that everyone has a responsibility towards the greater good. Including NPCs. It's not right for other people to foist their responsibilities onto you.
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A miser isn't per definitionem greedy. And as long as no one is harmed (i.e. refusing to feed someone who will clearly starve soon) it is certainly not evil in itself.
There are many things that might be "behavior unbecoming of a paladin", but there are few things that will actually make him fall or even have his deity take notice. And most of it is personal preference anyway.
It is important to keep in mind that paladins are not outsiders. They are still human (or elven or whatnot) and as such will struggle to keep within the ideals of their god. They will sometimes fail. It is expected. Sometimes they will even fail spectaculary. There is an atonement spell for a reason. The only thing that is important that they keep trying. The paladin might me a miserly, whoring, drinking bastard, but he strives not to be. Most times.
The paladin is a powerful tool, but a flawed one. And the gods know that.
If the greed thing is your primary concerns, place him in situations where the good behavior is unambiguously to give away some gold - not a crippling amount, but more than the player would like - and see if the paladin does the right thing. Greed can easily be considered evil behavior and, if you determine the paladin is actually being greedy (not donating/tithing, not giving to poor, not paying for collateral damage or to help people rebuild their lives if negatively affected by things close to the campaign, etc.) then you have a much stronger footing to punish him.
I'm sorry, but this sounds a little too much like you're equating the paladin keeping the money he earned/worked for with greed. Keeping your stuff doesn't make you greedy, and greed doesn't equal evil. Especially if the god you follow has as one of its tenets the equivalent of "god helps those who help themselves."
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Or my preferred solution:
Stop meddling in your players' characters.
Trust that the player is mature enough to handle his own paladin code and make tough decisions, and stop acting like its your job to be the arbiter. It becomes your job to be the arbiter if the player is NOT mature enough to handle his own character, in which case he should not play that character in the first place, or be guided with an easy hand, so as to become a better player, fit to play said character.
I have a paladin in my RotR campaign, and the only person at the table who is even commenting on whether or not something he does is within his code or alignment is himself, because he knows what he rolled up, and the other players and I trust him to play his character.
-Nearyn
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Why is taking winnings from gambling "morally ambiguous"?Because it is pay without work. Because the other men at the table may have bet more than they could afford, and it will harm their families and community. Because it is not inherently good, like raising a barn.
The money is indeed his, but the deeper implications relating to Erastil were not considered. Should he give the money back to each gambler, then it was simply a game, of no negative consequence, played at a festival.
I think an older cleric, paladin or follower of Erastil should take him aside and talk him. Taking away powers is extreme and should only be done if warnings are getting to him.
Out of game, you should talk to him.
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Have the wife of someone he was playing poker with complain to him that her husband has gambled away the money that was going to pay for their children's education. If he doesn't care, create future situations where he has the opportunity to screw people over for personal gain, until you catch him out in a blatant evil act and can make him fall...
Or get together and agree on a clear and simple code of conduct.
You may be confusing it with the Bro Code.
And now I'm envisioning a new archetype for the paladin - the Brodin.
And unlike the original flawed paladin, it even has its own code of conduct available in hardcopy.
Think it's too late to petition for this archetype to be added to the ACG?
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I'm still confused about your world's morality...
What if he uses his gambling winnings to pay for beer and hookers? Is it a good act then?
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Getting into a fight, whoring about or even kicking a dog are all bad, but not worthy of the title evil.
I have to wholeheartedly disagree with your point about whoring. Prostitution in and of itself is perfectly fine and not even remotely bad. You might even say that he's supporting local business when he visits a whore and pays for her services.
It's only when and if we get to forced prostitution that problems arise.Have the wife of someone he was playing poker with complain to him that her husband has gambled away the money that was going to pay for their children's education. If he doesn't care, create future situations where he has the opportunity to screw people over for personal gain, until you catch him out in a blatant evil act and can make him fall...
Or get together and agree on a clear and simple code of conduct.
Sorry, did you just advocate what I think you did? The game is not about making the paladin fall, so don't try to force them.