I wish to start a campaign world that heavily uses firearms, but i'm afraid of invalidating heavy armor characters as I still thematically like them, in reality guns kinda invalidated the style but I like it, so i have been working on ideas to keep heavy armors relevant in this more modern setting
does any one have any advice or good homebrew rules that could help me with this problem?
the setting will likely use the advanced firearms as the base or at least have them readily available for those with money
the location will be mainly dense forests
and the adventures the party will be dealing with are mainly large monster hunting, gladiatorial combat and a dash of dungeon delving.
If there are a lot of firearms, magic would have come up to counter them. Invent a new armor enhancement that allows for the bonus of the armor to count against guns.
Gunslingers are still awesome against everything with nat. armor, but the big metal can of death is not invalidated.
If there are a lot of firearms, magic would have come up to counter them. Invent a new armor enhancement that allows for the bonus of the armor to count against guns.
Gunslingers are still awesome against everything with nat. armor, but the big metal can of death is not invalidated.
To be honest, I'm surprised that Paizo hasn't added a "Bulletproof" enhancement to the game, yet. Seems like the only items that actually give AC against firearm attacks are the Gunslinger's Poncho and the various strengths of an Amulet of Bullet Deflection.
Or kevlar bracers. Basically bracers of armor but the enchantment affects your touch AC vs Bullets. With that much specific limitations, you could see the price lower.
Another idea is that Natural Armor protects against bullets. Ever wonder why elephants are hunted with elephant guns and not .22 rifles? Because their hide is thick and it is hard to get bullets through that much dense material (vs metal armor, which is crappy against point forces like bullets).
Either way should provide a decent boost against bullets to make it a bit less horrible for PCs.
Unless you just want to cut away the "attack touch AC" stuff of guns. I suggest you let guns be a known factor in the World(so dragons know what to expect). Large monsters will be a different kind of dangerous( read a few CRs lower). Most heroes will be Gunslingers or full casters. and heavy armor either need some magic or a special bullet proof material(Bulletproffium. Cost as mithral and give Full armor AC vs. bullets) also feats like deflect missile will be for every one.
A MoMS monk dip to get snake style and deflect bullet sounds like a great idea.
Make sure that guns are no go in gladiatorial figths.
Also sneeking, charging and disarming will be important moves for primitives.
Edit: if you tell us more about your world, it sounds interesting, we can help more:)
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I would house rule an enchantment or a material that offers an AC bonus against bullets. You can also use the Armor as DR alternate rules.
However, Guns only hit touch AC within their first range increment. This is important. In a world where guns are common place you are going to find far less out in the open and close up fights. People are going to be using cover which gives them a +4 to AC (including touch AC). Also people aren't going to just run into the range of enemy guns. This makes it hard for heavy armor wearers because they are the type to run into range of enemy guns. Other classes however, are going to attempt to get close without being noticed or play a ranged game themselves.
Also things that provide a miss chance are going to be everyone’s best friend.
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My only homebrew world included extensive use of firearms ranging from muzzle loading flintlocks to advanced, gas operated weapons all dependednt on the resources available to the shooter and how far they found themselves form the manufacturing centers of the world. This was in 3.5 and I used the rules presented in Sorcery & Steam but it wasn't that different than the firearms rules presented in Ultimate Combat.
The only alteration I made so that characters could still run around in armor and swing swords and axes if they wanted to, and several did, was remove the attacking touch AC. All characters were allowed their full AC against all attacks so guns ended up being more advanced crossbows or bows with more opportunity for damage output from iterate attacks or criticals. Plus, guns are just cooler, especially in a steampunk setting.
Balance was just fine in the game and scaled well when compared to bows and magic. The only change I needed to account for is once the parties started relying more heavily on firearms, and they usually always did, they functioned as if their APL was about 1 higher. Some scaling was required but so little it barely warrants mentioning.
I would house rule an enchantment or a material that offers an AC bonus against bullets. You can also use the Armor as DR alternate rules.
However, Guns only hit touch AC within their first range increment. This is important. In a world where guns are common place you are going to find far less out in the open and close up fights. People are going to be using cover which gives them a +4 to AC (including touch AC). Also people aren't going to just run into the range of enemy guns. This makes it hard for heavy armor wearers because they are the type to run into range of enemy guns. Other classes however, are going to attempt to get close without being noticed or play a ranged game themselves.
Also things that provide a miss chance are going to be everyone’s best friend.
He is planning to have advanced firearms they use touch AC on the first 5 range incs.
but you are rigth about the rest:)|
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You’re going to find that advanced fire arms are difficult to balance.
Magic as written isn't designed with that range in mind; I would increase all spells' range by one step (effectively eliminating melee touch spells).
A world designed with advanced firearms is going to be dominated by gunslingers unless guns are considered martial/simple weapons and every class can use them.
I would also be hyper vigilant about light rules. Characters in dim light gain a 20% miss chance. Last I would be hyper vigilant about perception rules and range modifiers to DC as well.
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I would also be hyper vigilant about light rules. Characters in dim light gain a 20% miss chance. Last I would be hyper vigilant about perception rules and range modifiers to DC as well.
this is good advice.
In a gun heavy world beasts that rely on melee will become extinct as armies can now easily cleans their lands of dangerous monsters using commoners. This is one of the major reasons knights became extinct in the 1500s.
The easiest way to balance guns is to use mostly NPC and monsters that use guns. Kobolds are not that intimidating when they are using their +3 to hit slings or their +1 to hit spears, but if they are using guns then that +3 to hit touch attack makes them all extremely dangerous. Dragons would have made dragon-sized guns, and their dragon-sized guns will do dragon-sized damage.
Also keep in mind that it is practically impossible to be stealthy when using firearms. As soon as one round is fired everyone within miles knows that someone is shooting at something, and the ones who are closer might come running to help their comrades.
So, to recap: almost everyone uses firearms to balance firearms. Wild animals are never considered enemies and run away if they encounter the party. They also travel in large packs, so if the party attacks them they stand a chance of killing them off.
Also, Tower Shields become more important since they can still block guns.
Or kevlar bracers. Basically bracers of armor but the enchantment affects your touch AC vs Bullets. With that much specific limitations, you could see the price lower.
Another idea is that Natural Armor protects against bullets. Ever wonder why elephants are hunted with elephant guns and not .22 rifles? Because their hide is thick and it is hard to get bullets through that much dense material (vs metal armor, which is crappy against point forces like bullets).
Either way should provide a decent boost against bullets to make it a bit less horrible for PCs.
I would like to point out that no one in the world would know what a "touch attack" is, so inventing a specific counter for it would ungenuine. I do like your hide-armor idea though, and I think it would be interesting to see armor evolve to meet the new need for heavy, thick armors.
I'd like to also point out that bullet fragments are a real danger. If you've got metal armor enchanted against lead bullets coming at you, those bullets are going to shatter on impact. You may see mass combat evolve into a situation where the warrior-lords, fighting-clerics and paladins will have to fight without men beside them because those foot soldiers are staying away from the armored warriors drawing all the fire from the enemy. Who wants bullet fragments in the face?
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We created a "Ballistic" armor enhancement that allowed the armor to count vs. firearm attacks targeting touch, and I often use the ol' Scintillating Scales spell from 3.5 to allow dragons to convert their natural armor bonus to a deflection bonus (although that gets kind of crazy sometimes).
Another system we've tried is switching guns from targeting touch AC to having a Penetration Rating. Basically, one-handed firearms have a Penetration Rating of 2, two-handed firearms have a penetration rating of 4, and each point of enhancement bonus a firearm has increases their penetration rating by 1. What that would mean in game is that a rifle with a +5 enhancement bonus would potentially bypass up to 9 points of AC from armor and shields. That means that the more armor you've got piled on, the more you keep after PR, so there's still some benefit.
The point about firearms is that they change the meta. Evasion becomes more important than regular AC. Dodge bonus, dex to AC, size bonuses to AC, and miss chance are the important things when facing firearms.
You could change armor to give DR instead of AC and shields to give AC. This is an easy fix that enables things to work.
Bottom line is that when you go to guns everything becomes about burst-damage.
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It depends on what you are going for. You say that you want to have a world with common advanced firearms but want heavy armor to still be an effective choice for characters.
You further say that "the setting will likely use the advanced firearms as the base or at least have them readily available for those with money."
"the location will be mainly dense forests"
"and the adventures the party will be dealing with are mainly large monster hunting, gladiatorial combat and a dash of dungeon delving."
For PCs, who want to be effective and cool, the determining factor for heavy armor being worth it is going to be what they are facing.
Large monster hunting? Unless the large monsters are using firearms, heavy armor PCs are just as good as they would be in an ordinary world.
Gladiatorial combat? That's a little trickier but typically gladiatorial matches feature unusual weapons and I can't think of any cultures that featured weapons that could easily kill spectators with a wild shot. (Maybe there were some Roman gladiatorial battles where they gave the gladiators bows--there were a couple chariot archers in [u]Gladiator[/u] but they took some historical liberties). Even if that were you protected the spectators, I imagine it would be rather boring. A gladiatorial match with guns would be rather strange, storywise, so heavy armor PCs will probably be just as effective in gladiatorial combat in an advanced firearm world as in a regular no firearm world.
Dungeon Delving usually features traps, constructs, monsters, and the occasional organized monster who might use guns in such a setting. That is the only one of your major adventure types where heavy armors would be more disadvantaged than usual.
Dense Forests Theoretically dense forests heavily favor melee combatants over ranged combatants (one reason that the bow makes little sense as the traditional elven weapon of war). Sight lines are short, there is lots of cover, and lots of concealment. If you play this up, it would help level the playing field.
Finally, you are a little vague as to whether everyone has advanced firearms or only those with money. Assuming that the dungeon delving and non-core style encounters in your campaign are enough to affect the balance of armor types, it makes a big difference as to what kind of house rules are needed to make heavy armor viable.
If only the wealthy have advanced firearms, then allowing adamantine armor to be fully effective against advanced firearms is a perfectly viable solution. By the time PCs can expect to face multiple foes with 5,000-7,000 gp weapons, adamantine fullplate should be affordable. (It will certainly be affordable after they face down a few such foes). Doing so might actually shift the balance slightly in favor of heavy armor PCs.
On the other hand, if advanced firearms are cheaper and more common, then heavy armor characters would need something to do until they are actually able to get adamantine armor (assuming it works). Designing one or two types of (less expensive than adamantine) armor that are effective against firearms would probably do the trick while requiring the least math. That way, heavy armor PCs would have something to wear before they could afford their adamantine armor of choice.(Non-agile breastplates would probably be a good choice. Historically, there were even a few armors with roughly the same coverage area as breastplates (and which were effective against small arms fire) in use during the American civil war (though not widely--they weren't standard issue). Half-plate would also be a reasonable choice (half-plate was actually developed to enable to counter 16th-17th century firearms--it was half-plate because they had to sacrifice some of the protection for extremities in order to enable the remaining armor to be heavier).
Allowing relatively cheap armor enhancements would also solve the problem though it would make one wonder why firearms are becoming commonplace when they are cheaply countered.
A lot of good advice here which i thank everyone for, I'm thinking of using a armor/shield enhancement called Bullet Blocking which will be a +2 enhancement and allow armor to apply fully to firearms, also Adamantine armor will apply its bonus vs firearms unless they use adamantine bullets against it, i considered lowering protection from arrows to a level 1 spell because I have never once seen it used by a player as they all think its under powered (feel free to counter that idea, im just saying for years we have ignored it). I have considered adding more anti-gun spells as well but im not sure where to start with that. i'll throw in a few more details to help answer some of the questions that have pop'd up
The setting is highly magical and based around an adventuring guild called Aegis, which uses gladiatorial combat as a display to intrigue potential employers, so player vs. Adventurer types will be common. The guild has many mages that protect the crowd and try to prevent deaths in the arena
The monster hunting is something i knew the heavy armor characters will be fine at, but as there will be tribes of orc/gnolls that use firearms (not all of them but a couple handful of guns per tribe isnt unreasonable) the fighter will have some trouble vs the more humanoid races.
I'd be wary of making the Bulletproof enhancement so much of an investment. +2 is a lot, and closes other doors.
Honestly I'd make it one of those +X gold things, where it doesn't have an enhancement boost just adds an extra ability for a certain amount of gold.
Somewhere in the 6-10k range so characters can afford it around level 8 or so.
I also second making Natural Armor count against the attacks as well, unless you want most monsters to be hunted to extinction. At the very least, make a spell that allows it, so Dragons and other monstrous spellcasters can utilize it.
Final suggestion I can think of off the top of my head...consider making the Dex to Damage aspect of guns a feature of guns, not the Gunslinger class. Give the Gunslinger something else to compensate, like Weapon Training with guns or summat.
Reason being that in a world where guns are prevalent, everyone's going to want to use them at least as a sidearm. Might as well make them a viable option for everybody so your players are stuck with either being Gunslinger (or Trench Fighter) only or missing out on a big part of the world (that guns are the predominant weapon).
And it's pretty cool to think about anyway. Barbarians with machine guns akimbo, firing at the enemy, dropping them and whipping out a Greatsword as he closes. Stuff like that.
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It's not characters in dim light that get 20% miss but when they try to attack targets in dim light. How well you can see is based on the illumination level of what you're looking at, not how well illuminated you personally are. If you're standing in a long, pitch-black corridor and someone starts walking towards you with a lantern, you can see them quite clearly walking towards you, way before their light radius hits you. You don't see nothing but darkness until they take that last step and suddenly they render in like a mumorpuger with graphics set to [Why are you even here?]. Unless you have a particularly lazy and bored GM.
"To the North, you see a forest. You would have seen it earlier, but its graphics have only just popped in."
-Yahtzee, Zero PunctuationSo maybe items that gave you personal concealment would be another good option for defense; camouflage, essentially. You could even make custom values like 10% rather than stick with the standard Partial = 20%, Full = 50%.
this is what I meant but just worded it extremely poorly