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Arcane Duelist doesn't lose Inspire Courage actually, though it does lose other stuff (see below).
What Archetype you should go for really depends on what you want to do. Personally, especially as a first Bard character, I'd go with the core Bard. It needs no Archetype to be awesome. None of the archetypes really improve the Class in any objective way as much as they change its focus. And personally, I think the core Bard's focus is one of the most fun and effective in the game.
That said:
If you want to play a Bard, don't be an Archaeologist, it's a fun class, but it's more of a Rogue with Bard spells than it is anything resembling a normal Bard. It's cool...but not a good reflection of the class as a whole.
Arcane Duelist meanwhile gives up Bardic Knowledge and Versatile Performance (the two Class Features that make the Bard the best skill class in the game) for some Feats and other combat advantages. Personally, I don't think it's worth it...especially since a Bard's always going to be more of a buffer than a primary damage dealer anyway. Still, it is probably better at straight combat than a core Bard.
Duelist is good.
Use the various ways to get 2 performances running and buff the party while your weapon gains power.
Gr. Invisibility plus Cloak of Dreams is lot of fun - sneak-sleep-coup-de-grace.
With buffs like Courage and Heroism you can fight very well - your defense will consist of mirror image/AC
So with a Duelist you can fight well, buff everyone, further buff yourself, identify every monster and have an awesome spell list that combines great defensive spells with control spells and enchantments, and cures.
What's not to like? You're a Bard, and you can fight.
Depends on what you are trying to do.
+1
My last bard was a Arcane Duelist and I can honestly say it was one of the greatest character5s I’ve ever played. Very fun, versatile and still powerful. The Arcane Duelist is awesome!!!
Sure, she can’t compare to a fighter when dealing damage, but then again If I would count in all the boost to damage my Inspire Courage did by boosting the others in the party, I’ll bet my bard would outdamage the fighter.
Two other great bard archetypes are Dirge bard: good for archery and spells. Especially with rays necromancy rays.
The Dervish of Dawn/Dawnflower dervish ( from the Inner Sea Magic) is a really powerful melee class archetype that rely on self-buffing.
It is called Dawnflower dervish in the Inner Sea Magic, but The Dervish of Dawn if you check out the d20PFSRD.com.
If you like the rogue concept Archaeologist might be the thing for you. Anyone playing this archetype should pick lingering performance and arcane strike. Also there is one trait that is a must have:
Fate's Favored: The fates watch over you. Whenever you are under the effect of a luck bonus of any kind, that bonus increases by 1.
Two problematic archetypes that can be great:
Sound Striker and Thundercaller are two archetypes that are interesting but problematic in that it is unclear how some of their abilities work. If you choose either of these two archetypes talk to your GM/DM so you agree how the abilities work.
Finally:
The Core bard isn’t bad, but it is kind of dull.
Next bard I’ll play will probably be a Dirge bard or a Dervish of Dawn., but I've played som many Bard so I'll probably play some other class.
Races:
Human, half-elf or Half-orc all grants you the option of choose a bonus spell known an alternate class reward
Aasimar favored class option isn’t bad: “Choose one bardic performance; treat the bard as +1/2 level higher when determining the effects of that performance.” I still think humans, half-elf and Half-orc are better.
I always play humans since bards are feat starved and I like more spells known and more skill points are nice when you are a bard.
My advice: be very, very careful about specialising your Bard with an archetype. While the class can become quite potent that way, the real strength of the Bard class lies in its versatility. And you'd lose that.
Accept that you'll never be the best at anything, and you'll be good at everything. Play the standard Bard, especially if it's your first.
My advice: be very, very careful about specialising your Bard with an archetype. While the class can become quite potent that way, the real strength of the Bard class lies in its versatility. And you'd lose that.
Accept that you'll never be the best at anything, and you'll be good at everything. Play the standard Bard, especially if it's your first.
+ 0.5
The Dirge bard actually keep all the good Bard stuff and trades out the weak stuff.
Even a arcane duelist can be versatile. They still get 6 skills per level, good list of class skills and keep Inspire Courage.
Edit:
That said I agree that the Core bard is very good, but to me some it's abilities like Jack-of-all-trades is really weak.
Unless your GM/DM lets you retrain skills Versatile performance is weak and actually a trap.
If this is the first bard then The Dirge bard is both Cool and very good without losing the Key bard features.
Regardless what bard you play, I agree with VRMH: "be very, very careful about specialising your Bard with an archetype",
.... unless you know what you are doing :)
If you do pick an archetype try to pick one that still keep the essence/key features of the Bard.
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That said I agree that the Core bard is very good, but to me some it's abilities like Jack-of-all-trades is really weak.
Jack of All Trades is indeed a bit weak. It's the only Bard ability I feel comfortable saying that about, though (well, other than a few specific Performances and maybe Well Versed).
Unless your GM/DM lets you retrain skills Versatile performance is weak and actually a trap.
Not if you plan around it. Which isn't hard to do, really. Not around your first three performances, anyway (don't take Sense Motive and one of Bluff or Diplomacy at 1st, get Perform Oratory or Sing at 2nd, don't get Acrobatics, take Dance at 6th, don't put more than a rank into Intimidate, get Percussion at 10th, or reverse those last two, just for one example set-up).
Also, some GMs do let you retrain for this purpose even if no others. Maybe ask yours about it before deciding how good it is.
If this is the first bard then The Dirge bard is both Cool and very good without losing the Key bard features.
Eh. It skips Versatile Performance and Lore Master (which are both excellent, and more than half the Bard's claim to fame as better than the Rogue at skills) for some very specifically undead and fear related stuff. And, what's more, the flavor is awfully specific and may not be what you're looking for, depending.
Regardless what bard you play, I agree with VRMH: "be very, very careful about specialising your Bard with an archetype",
.... unless you know what you are doing :)
I agree...but as someone looking for help with his very first Bard, the OP doesn't seem to really fit that criteria.
If you do pick an archetype try to pick one that still keep the essence/key features of the Bard.
This I agree with whole-heartedly. :)
@Deadmanwalking
OK, we don’t agree. Fine. That said I think you are wrong in some aspects.
Losing Versatile Performance and Lore Master are hardly game breaking. It keeps Bardic Knowledge and that is really good and it keeps a lot of the core bard features, unlike say Arcane Duelist.
Also, lot of the bards abilities are mind affecting abilities and undeads are very common monsters. Being able to affect undeads with mind affecting spells is gold.
edit:
Also the Dirge bard get Necromancy bonus spells and there are a lot of nice spells such as Enervation and Defending Bone or even ray of enfeeblement.
Edit 2: Ray of exhaustion is also awesome. It stacks with itself
Come to think of it I would stay away from the archaeologist.
Bard is possibly my favourite class, mostly because there are so many ways to play one. The core bard is meant to be able to do a little of everything: fighting, buffing, debuffing, skill monkeying, scouting, and playing face. Many of the archetypes are good, and allow you to specialize a little in one or a few of these areas, and come with a lot of flavour.
Without going too much into specifics, the only archetypes I'd really stay away from are Celebrity, Demagogue, and Geisha (not to be confused with Lotus Geisha, which is okay). Sea Singer is a bit pointless outside of an aquatic or seafaring campaign. I'd also be a little wary of Buccaneer, Daredevil, Songhealer, Soundstriker, but I can see uses for them.
I like to play supportive characters, and to that end my favourite archetypes is probably Street Performer. In a smaller party I prefer to play something a bit more self-sufficient, though, like Arcane Duelist. Dirge Bard is another favourite, and I really enjoyed playing an Animal Speaker; both have great flavour.
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ok, so I wanted a bard that is a world traveler, competent solo adventurer, charming and fun but not overly so. I want him melee oriented but I am not sure if I want him to be self-buff focused (such as archaeologist and dervish dancer) Or party-buff with less solo competency such as arcane duelist, dirge bard, core bard.
also, with lingering performance could you, round 1, inspire courage, and then round 2-3 use other performances?
here are some quick builds I would think about
Arcane Duelist (I really like this as a more combat focused bard)
Angel kin Aasimar
Reactionary
????
Str:16
Dex:14(12+2, giving up SLA for +2)
Con:13
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:18
feats
1- arcane strike, lingering performance
3- Improved initiative
5-????
7?????
9????
really not sure of good feats to use here.
Archaeologist bard (more I look at it, the less I like it)
Angel kin Aasimar
Str:12
Dex:16
Con: 14
Int:10
Wis:11
Cha:18
1- arcane strike
3-????
5-????
Core Bard
Gnome
Str:8
Dex:16
Con:12
Int:13
Wis:10
Cha:18
(1 point left)
Feats
1- Lingering performance
3- combat expertise
5- Improved Trip
7- Agile maneuvers
9- Greater Trip
11- Spell Focus Illusion
13-???
15-????
I honestly have no idea about dirge bards, though they look interesting.
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Bards can be fantastic; but not as melee machines. Honestly as melee machines (or even as mixed Melee/Archers), they are going to be good up until about 6-7, and then they wished they had never taken a bit of melee.
I consider Dawnflower Dervish a fantastic 1-level splash for dex-based fighting types. I consider Archeologist a fantastic splash for half-orc characters that already have decent charisma and want a few spells to throw around (Half-Orcs can get a tattoo that grants +1 luck to all saves; then you take the trait Fortune's Favored and now get +1 additional on all attacks during dance AND +1 additional on saves).
So what do bards do well?
*They make good "skill monkeys" and "party faces"; core book bards in fact they are the best skill monkeys in the game. I think this is somewhat undervalued, though I agree most archetypes can do it better.
*They have access to buffs nobody else can do. Nothing makes the party amazing quite like round 1 Inspire Courage + Good Hope; +4 to hit and +4 to damage (and +2 saves) for everyone.
*They have a nice variety of charm spells; which can be "limited" at times.
*They have access to several excellent debuffs; Blistering Invictus and Sculpt Sound being my favorite of these.
As far as archtypes, I recommend Archivist generally; they get trapspotting, are amazing at Knowledge skill checks (can be the "knowledge guru" for the aprty), can disable traps (you should take a trait to make this a class skill), and have a bardsong that is "mostly better" than the standard type (-2 damage, +2 AC and +2 to many saves... I'll take that trade all day; only downside is language-dependent, so doesn't hit animal companions).
As far as feats, my current bard has been amazing with the Bodyguard line. Spellstrike Gloves + Adopted (Halfling) Trait + +2 Benevolent Armor = 5 times per round people attacked which adjacent to me get +8 AC. This is on top of the +2 AC my song grants (see archivist above). It also makes me feel like I'm contributing; if I have no spells to cast, I can "aid another" for +4 to hit (helpful) and +2 Damage (spellstrike gloves pass off your damage when you aid another).
It's really quite powerful; but subtaly so; your party feels like superheroes.
also, with lingering performance could you, round 1, inspire courage, and then round 2-3 use other performances?
No. You're still limited by the rule that you can't have more than one performance in effect at a time. If you start a second performance, your first one ends, even if you have Lingering Performance. It's just a good way to preserve your rounds/day, and useful if something stops your performance for some reason.
After a while you'll get a good feel for when an encounter is almost over, or is no longer such a threat that you need to be spending performance rounds. You don't have to have a buff up all the time. With Lingering Performance you can anticipate and save even more rounds.
Bards can be fantastic; but not as melee machines. Honestly as melee machines (or even as mixed Melee/Archers), they are going to be good up until about 6-7, and then they wished they had never taken a bit of melee.
This is not necessarily. Sure they can never be the party tank, but the Arcane Duelist is a good secondary melee character and I suspect as the Dawnflower Dervish is even better.
But I agree, versatility is better than pure melee build.
So what do bards do well?
It is all about role and how you build it. The Arcane Duelist can actually be a good archer.
As far as archtypes, I recommend Archivist generally; they get trapspotting, are amazing at Knowledge skill checks (can be the "knowledge guru" for the aprty), can disable traps (you should take a trait to make this a class skill), and have a bardsong that is "mostly better" than the standard type (-2 damage, +2 AC and +2 to many saves... I'll take that trade all day; only downside is language-dependent, so doesn't hit animal companions). .
I strongly disagree. Bonus to attack and damage is always better than the same bonus to AC. This is not an opinion. This is how the game is designed. True the bonus to saves is nice but there are ways to handle this anyway. Also, inspire courage does grant a bonus to some saves.
Killing the enemy first is always better than trying to avoid getting killed.@ rorek55: I would go with one of the normal medium races. If you want a dex based small character Hafling is better. Combat maneuvers are usually not very good. Especially if you don’t invest heavily in a feat chain and certify not if you are small.
What does the rest of the Party look like?
What role do you want your Bard to have?
Edit:
My advice? Don’t complicate stuff so much. Play a core bard (or Dirge Bard). Pick some archer feats without overspecializing. PBS and PS is enough. Aim for utility. Pick Arcane Strike as well. Play Human. If that isn’t sexy enough. Play half elf or half-orc.
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OK. I would like build advice on the Arcane duelist, and a brief (I don't want to ask to much) of what you would be doing as one on average.
and a comparison of the dirge bard vs the core bard. If at all possible.
I still like the thought of a melee bard. Think swashbuckler, but more show than substance. (though, enough substance to be effective preferably)
Core bard:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard
Dirge bard
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/dirge-bard
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Core bard:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bardDirge bard
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/dirge-bard
thanks, I have those classes, I was just wanting some advice on how effective the different features where. If anyone has experience playing/playing with them and can give insight into that. (the problem I see with dirge is, 1 performance at a time, so when do I debuff over buff?)
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I'll let someone else handle the Arcane Duelist, but I can take a stab at the Dirge Bard.
Really, the tl;dr version is that you're less of a skill monkey, but good with fear effects and necromantic spells, you can easily deal with undead in an unconventional way, and starting at 10th you get a really cheap Animate Dead performance.
Wall of text version:
For starters, the Dirge Bard still has Inspire Courage, so that much of your game largely stays the same. In my experience, teammates tend to be pretty disappointed when you tell them you can't IC, so it's nice to have.
You trade away Versatile Performance, so your skill points are going to be a little tighter than they would be for most bards. (Also, consider that you probably want to put more ranks into Knowledge: Religion than most bards.) The Dirge Bard isn't a skill monkey.
At 5th level, though, you can substitute Perform (Keyboard or Percussion) for Intimidate when demoralizing, along with a bonus; this is at least a little like versatile performance. It's up to you if you care enough about demoralizing; it may not be that big a deal for you, since you will have other, often better ways of inflicting fear effects that won't stack. I'm a big fan of Blistering Invective as a reliable debuff, however. Your call. If you like, try asking your GM to let you substitute a different Perform style for this bonus, as those two choices seem a little random. There are a number of passable choices for instruments, though, such as castanets or kalimba that are quite portable. Either would be really creepy if made out of bone.
Another big change is that you can affect undead with your mind-affecting effects. This is nice if you don't have anyone in the party who can turn, or otherwise deal with undead.
You can also start to add a few necromancy spells from the sorc/wiz and witch list to your repertoire, which is fantastic. Necromancy as a school is sometimes overlooked, but there are a few really valuable spells in there.
What really changes the way you do things is the bonus to save DCs vs fear effects (technically the enemy suffers a penalty; same diff). This scales from a -2 at 5th to a -5 at 20th. The fear complications are really powerful, and the ability to hit undead with them gives you a little more reason to use them. It's also just really fun to make your enemies run screaming. I never tire of it, anyway.
Lastly, it's worth mentioning the 10th level bardic music ability, Dance of the Dead which is great. Animate Dead with no component cost? Yes please! It's disgusting, but helpful to start shoving the corpses of your victims into a bag of holding once you get close to 10th, so that you'll always have a supply of "volunteers" at the ready. The Decompose Corpse spell can be helpful for storage, though it's a shame to waste a spell slot on it. Perhaps get a wand.
Mostly, I love the flavour. You get to do the usual bard stuff: inspire courage, inspire competence, fascinate+suggestion, cast spells, etc - however, you also get to be super creepy, and brave in the face of undeath. Playing a bard isn't just about being useful, it's about being memorable. Maybe someone will fondly remember the Arcane Duelist who hit for a lot of damage; nobody will forget the cute, bright-eyed undertaker's daughter who grew up playing music at funeral services, and kept beloved dead things in a bag of holding until it was time for them to wake up for one last dance.
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Dirge bard: A fun character that, in fairness, I've only conceptualized. Take the 1 level of dual-blooded sorcerer and make an enchnatment specialist (dual-blooded sorcerer to add to save DCs), then laugh at the undead that suddenly seem to be joining your team (along with enemies). Useful if you enjoy playing an enchanter; though very likely to bring the wrath of the GM. Be true neutral so protection spells never grant a second save.
Regular bard: Good skill monkeys really is the only reason you'd play with no archtypes.
Arcane Duelist (I like Aasimar so at levels 4, 8-10, and 12-16 you get an extra +1 to Inspire Competence; going for Angelic for + to Cha and Str). 20 points
Str: 18
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Chr: 16
Long Spear
1) Arcane Strike, Combat Reflexes
3) Power Attack
5) Furious Focus
7) Lingering Performance (Get Ready for masterpieces)
9) Lunge
11) The feat that makes your song grant d6 sonic damage
And go to town; buff early, @ 7 start each battle with Inspire Competence + Bardsong for +4 to hit / damage, and hit really, really hard. I'm a huge fan of reach weapons + combat reflexes, at low-mid levels you'll get a lot of extra attacks from this.
5 skill points / level is pretty good; the Arcane Duelist suggests less of a skill monkey than many bards are; and I feel Wis is more important than Int here (for saves).
Really good stuff
And they get to keep all the first level stuff:
Bardic knowledge, bardic performance, cantrips, countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage.Keeping Bardic knowledge is really nice.
and they get Haunted Eyes which is awesume.
Also, are masterpieces worth taking?
Edit twice:
No, not really. At least not for the price of a feat. At the price of a first level spell is fine. Triple Time is OK otherwise I would stay away from them.I'll post you a Arcane Duelist tomorrow.
Really good stuffAnd they get to keep all the first level stuff:
Bardic knowledge, bardic performance, cantrips, countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage.Keeping Bardic knowledge is really nice.
and they get Haunted Eyes which is awesume.
Yes, good call: Haunted Eyes is a decided upgrade on Well-Versed.
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Masterpiece Requium of the Fallen King is well worth a spell; it is what every melee dreams of, since it lets them move and full round attack. Not even haste does that :). It also burns off some of the excessive bard song rounds you have @ that level. And it feeds into the prerequisite for the 11th level feat that makes all weapons deal d6 sonic damage while you perform.
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Masterpiece Requium of the Fallen King is well worth a spell; it is what every melee dreams of, since it lets them move and full round attack. Not even haste does that :). It also burns off some of the excessive bard song rounds you have @ that level. And it feeds into the prerequisite for the 11th level feat that makes all weapons deal d6 sonic damage while you perform.
It requires a minute to perform it, and then you have to use the action within 10 minutes. It's good if you can make that really long setup and short window for combat to work, but it's really hard to count on.
Some Masterpieces seem okay, though I've never played under a GM who allowed them (I think mostly because there's a lot of reading to do to know if any are broken, and nobody wanted to bother).
I think they're mostly only worth it if you're a human bard, since they cost a spell known, which you can easily recover using your favoured class bonus. You may have to delay adding a spell to your list, but in the long run you'll wind up with more stuff.
A few ones that stood out to me:
The Winds of the Five Heavens: Control Winds is powerful at high levels. Being able to drop a hurricane or tornado on someone has a lot of uses: sinking ships, blowing away armies or flying opponents, deflecting ranged attacks, etc. Just beware the 3 round prep time: it's the sort of thing you only want to use when you are aware that a fight is about to start, and preferably if you have some distance between you. And don't forget to put your party in the eye, or target the thing far away from you.
Triple Time: Takes 1 minute prep, but costs a mere 1 round of perform to up someone's land speed by +10' for an hour. Who doesn't like movement? Great for buffing the cavalier's mount, or the rogue who likes to flank, etc.
House of the Imaginary Walls: A neat effect that is more fun to think about than to use, perhaps. Still has applications (bridge, barrier against ranged attacks) at a very cheap cost to create, but dependent on will saves to work against foes.
Symphony of the Elysian Heart: Freedom of Movement is very useful in the right situations (fighting grappling monsters, ones that paralyze, have webs, for example), and you can get this 3 levels earlier than the spell, plus it affects multiple allies whereas the spell only hits one. Doesn't help you under water, though. Takes a full round to set up. Situational enough that I'd only get it as a human.
Rat Quadrille: Not great, but has some things going for it: Firstly, it's an attack debuff that targets Will, which is good. Secondly, a save only halves the penalty to -1 to hit. Thirdly, while it costs 3 performance rounds, it only takes a standard action to set up, and the duration lasts at least a minute (which will cover most fights). Okay for those single boss-monster fights. I'm unclear if you can start another bardic performance, or if that will end the effect; if it ends the effect, then don't bother.
Pageant of the Peacock: I only just discovered this one now, and it sounds great: +4 to bluff checks, and you can make bluff checks in place of any int-based checks. At only 1 performance round per 10 minutes? Yes please.
also, with lingering performance could you, round 1, inspire courage, and then round 2-3 use other performances?No. You're still limited by the rule that you can't have more than one performance in effect at a time. If you start a second performance, your first one ends, even if you have Lingering Performance. It's just a good way to preserve your rounds/day, and useful if something stops your performance for some reason.
After a while you'll get a good feel for when an encounter is almost over, or is no longer such a threat that you need to be spending performance rounds. You don't have to have a buff up all the time. With Lingering Performance you can anticipate and save even more rounds.
It's really nice with spells like Saving Finale, Gallant Inspiration etc. I'm pretty sure there's an archetype that allows you to use more than one performance at a time, but at an exorbitant cost in rounds per day. It *might* good for that - but only if you believe in 5 minute work days.
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It's really nice with spells like Saving Finale, Gallant Inspiration etc. I'm pretty sure there's an archetype that allows you to use more than one performance at a time, but at an exorbitant cost in rounds per day. It *might* good for that - but only if you believe in 5 minute work days.
There's no Archetypes, but there's a 4th level spell that does that, and another 5th level one that does the same at no cost in rounds.
Oh, I meant to add:
The Dance of the 23 Steps: It's not awful; again, something I'd consider picking up only as a human. At first it looks like an even harsher Combat Expertise that costs you Performance rounds; sucks, right? But the fact that it's a free action means that you can activate it at the end of your turn, essentially avoiding the penalties (aside from AoOs, immediate actions, or anything else you might need to do during other people's turns) but still gaining the benefit.
You can't stretch it out with Lingering Performance without paying the penalty, but it may be useful in some situations. The bonus scales, and at high levels it might be worth a Performance round every now and then.
Masterpiece Requium of the Fallen King is well worth a spell; it is what every melee dreams of, since it lets them move and full round attack. Not even haste does that :). It also burns off some of the excessive bard song rounds you have @ that level. And it feeds into the prerequisite for the 11th level feat that makes all weapons deal d6 sonic damage while you perform.It requires a minute to perform it, and then you have to use the action within 10 minutes. It's good if you can make that really long setup and short window for combat to work, but it's really hard to count on.
+1
And Discordant Voice only has Bardic performance class feature, Perform (oratory or sing) 10 ranks as prereq so you don't need any Masterpiece.Requium of the Fallen King sounds good in theory but isn't any good.
Mixing bard (arcane duelist) with archery is a pretty awesome combination all around. Just take the first turn to put up a buff or two and after that spend your time picking off any weakened foes, harassing enemy casters, or acting as the group's emergency medic as necessary. With good spell and skill selections you'll also be an MVP out of combat.
[....]
Arcane Duelist (I like Aasimar so at levels 4, 8-10, and 12-16 you get an extra +1 to Inspire Competence; going for Angelic for + to Cha and Str). 20 points
Str: 18
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Chr: 16Long Spear
1) Arcane Strike, Combat Reflexes
3) Power Attack
5) Furious Focus
7) Lingering Performance (Get Ready for masterpieces)
9) Lunge
11) The feat that makes your song grant d6 sonic damageAnd go to town; buff early, @ 7 start each battle with Inspire Competence + Bardsong for +4 to hit / damage, and hit really, really hard. I'm a huge fan of reach weapons + combat reflexes, at low-mid levels you'll get a lot of extra attacks from this.
5 skill points / level is pretty good; the Arcane Duelist suggests less of a skill monkey than many bards are; and I feel Wis is more important than Int here (for saves).
@ Thalin:
First of you can’t have two songs active at the same time. It is only +2 to hit and damage.I’m gonna use your post to show to OP not how to build an Arcane Duelist. My post is aimed at the OP, someone who isn’t familiar with how to play a Bard, it is not target towards you.
@OP.
OK, so Thalin’s Arcane Duelist is a very good example of how not to play a Bard and why it is a Bad idea for someone new to play an Arcane Duelist (AD).
Arcane Duelist or any devoted melee build usually makes Bard players stupid. They forget or never learn what makes the bard great. If you notice Thalin build all feats the 5 first levels are “weapon feats” the he adds Lingering Performance at level 7, when you start not needing more rounds and continue with a melee feat.
Traist: Anything cool is good, but there is a trait called Magical Knack that grant +2 CL. It is good if you want to pick one or two levels fighter. I would stay bard until level 8. Level 9 bard is kind or boring so a level fighter isn’t bad. Notice a bonus to Cl is also good if you use Arcane Strike.
Race:
So Aasimar that boost inspire courage sounds cool? Well Not really. Let me show you.
Let’s take a level 8 Aasimar Bard that want to boost his inspire courage.
At level 4 he counts as level 6 so his inspire courage is +2 instead of +1.
Is it good? Sure. Is it groundbreaking? No. Is 4 skills or 4 hit points Better? It depends. Is more spells know better? Perhaps not, but one more first level spell isn’t bad.
But at level 5 it is still only +2 and a human Bard would also have IC +2 at level 5.
And it goes on the same way at level 6 and 7. Only +2.
At level 8 his inspire courage is +3 instead of +2. Good? Sure. Groundbreaking? Hardly.
So at level 1-3 no bonus. Level 5 – 7 no bonus.
At level 4 and 8 it will be +1 higher than normal.
It’s actually not until level 12 that the bard’s inspire courage is more powerful every level.
And mean while you are missing out on more skills, hit points and even worse more spells known.
If you play Pathfinder Society you only play to level 12, right?
This means the alternate class reward from being an Aasimar will not be a reward most of the time.
Level 1-3 + 5-7 + 11 = No reward
Level 4 + 8-10 + 12 = Reward
If you had picked skill points, hit points or bonus spells known you would get a bonus every level.
Again: Play human. (or half elf or half orc)
Stats:
AD losses both bardic knowledge and versatile performance so he will be skills starved. I would say you should play human and have at least 12 int. If you play human 10 int is doable.
If you gonna start with 8 in any stat it should be wisdom. You will have good will saves and spells like heroism will help. As soon as you can afford you should get a lesser Extend Metamagic rod to make your heroism last longer.
If I’d play an Arcane Duelist today I would probably play an archer:
Str 13
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 12
Wis: 8
Char 16.
Possibly dump wis to 7 or start with dex 16 and boost str (or int).
If I had to play a melee dude I ask my GM if I can pick the feat that let me use dex instead of str or even better if the agile weapon ability was fine.
Edit:
With bardic performance and heroism you are probably good with 16 dex, but it is a matter of taste if you want to go for dex or charisma.
If I had to build a melee bard based on str it would go easy on str and possibly dump wis to 7.
Bards are MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency) and melee bard even more so. Unless you know what you are doing you are going to get into trouble. This problem is even greater if you play archetypes that loose abilities that grants bonus to skills.
Weapon:
If you going to try to build a melee monster you will get in trouble, but do you do stay away from the longspear, at least from level 5 when you get arcane bond and definitely from level 8: Let me quote treantmonk quoting me:
“When you get a Rod of Quicken Metamagic, Lesser, you can actually use your move action to perform the Dirge of Doom, then use your Swift for a quickened spell (like Slow) and cast regularly (perhaps Glitterdust?) - all with -2 to save DC's, all for one round of Bardic Perform.”
Or you can activate Dirge of Doom as a move action, cast favorite spell as a swift action using a rod and then swap to inspire courage as a standard action to boost all your alleys.
This can’t be done if you are using a two handed weapon.
When I created my Arcane Duelist I stared with these feats:
Harrowed (Curse Of The Crimson Throne Player's Guide)
Combat Reflexes (H)
Arcane Strike (Bonus feat Arcane Duelist)
I too used a longspear but swapped to a long swords as soon as I got arcane bond. You can use a longsword in two hands.
The longspear sounds good in theory but it is mostly problematic and the threat range sucks. You can’t attack adjacent enemies with a reach weapon and if you do have to possibility to take a 5 ft. step away they might have step up. Also, you can’t always take a 5 ft step. Not in difficult terrain. Longspear is good at lower levels because your AC will be a problem, at least if you play a strength build.
If however your DM/GM is cool with you using the longspear to cast spells just by holding it then the longspear is perhaps not a bad pick.
Feats:
1) Arcane Strike, Combat Reflexes
3) Power Attack
5) Furious Focus
Arcane Strike is rock solid. A good feat regardless if you play an archer or a melee bard or a jack of all trades kind of a bard.
Combat Reflexes sounds cool, but you usually need a reach weapon or Enlarge person and high dex. If you play a strength based bard this is not a very good feat and as pointed out before at level 5 you don’t want to use a two handed weapon.
Power attack and Furious Focus? I don’t know really. I’m not a big fan of picking power attack at lower levels and at higher levels Furious Focus will be rather useless.
I would stay away from Furious Focus and pick power attack at level 7 or 9.
Lingering Performance sounds cool? Well it is problematic to use at lower levels when restarting a performance is a standard action. At higher levels you won’t need it. By level 7 or 8 my bard usually didn’t have a problem with running out of rounds. Also by that time you likely be able to boost your charisma. Is it a bad feat? No. Is it a must have? No. If you are going to pick it do it at lower levels. By level 7 you mostly won’t need it. By level 9 or 10 you never need it. There is one big exception. If you DM/GM let you benefit from Lingering Performance when using Finale spells then the feat is rock solid if you plan on using final spells.
Lunge: Why use Lunge if you already use a reach weapon? And you can only use Lunge on your turn so you can’t use Lunge for AoO. It also grant a -2 to AC. You are a bard. You are smart. You don’t need Lunge. You can just use a Potion of enlarge person that also grant you +2 to str and a bonus to CMD/CMB and reach and as a bonus it makes your weapon more deadly.
The feat that makes your song grant d6 sonic damage is called Discordant Voice. It is not bad. In a Party where at least 3 of the members use weapons it is great. You need 10 ranks in Perform oratory or sing. If I played a core bard this would be a must have feat. As an Arcane Duelist I’m not so sure. Sure if you play human and perhaps have 12 int then you may have all the skills you need. Then feel free to pick it. Again: Notice that this feat is only good if you got more characters in the group that uses weapons.
Masterpiece Requium of the Fallen King? Stay away from this one. It sounds cool, but so does schrodinger wizard. If you can set it up every time you need it (or at least most of the times) then yes it is great, but my experience is that you are lucky if you even get a round worth of buffing.
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I’ve been giving this some thought and I’m not going to offer you a melee bard. At least not an Arcane Duelist. My advice to a new Bard player is to pick some archer feats and play smart. Use scrolls, potions, wands, tangelfoot bags, smokesticks, Thunderstones, etc. Be the person that always have a solution to a problem. In my experience players usually forget to have range weapons. You could be that player that can deal with any challenge and helping the others in the party while doing so. With PBS a PS you do just fine. If you later want to add Deadly aim or arcane strike go for it, but to get hung up on weapon feats.
Heck you could even grab weapon finesse just in case or get a melee weapon with the agile property.
Smart moves? Let me quote Timebomb
Get the bard a masterwork Shortbow and some Thistle Arrows and he can be a real pain in the butt for any caster he hits (DC 10+spell lvl for any spell they want to cast in the next 1d6 rounds for basically 0 cost on the PC side)
Yes, as an archer you don’t need a longbow. Lower levels you use a light crossbow, higher levels you use a short bow. If you pick a level fighter at level 9 you can swap to long bow.
Mixing bard (arcane duelist) with archery is a pretty awesome combination all around. Just take the first turn to put up a buff or two and after that spend your time picking off any weakened foes, harassing enemy casters, or acting as the group's emergency medic as necessary. With good spell and skill selections you'll also be an MVP out of combat.
yep and I would say Dirge Bard and Core Bard would be perfect, but arcane duelist isn't bad.
The Longspear is great if your GM is generous with his/her interpretation of Flagbearer and/or Banner of the Ancient Kings. If they let you put the flag on a spear and fight with it without penalty, then it suddenly becomes a pretty solid choice.
(There is a lot of room for interpretation with Flagbearer/BotAK, and while being able to attack without penalty with a giant flag on your spear makes very little sense logically, show me how Manyshot works IRL and I'll show you how this works. :P Ask your GM if you're feeling lucky.)
And to some extent you can get around the reach problems with spiked gauntlets. If you're cornered in melee, it's a free action to switch to holding the flag/spear in one hand, leaving you free to wail away with the gauntlet. Not optimal, but it's nice to have the option over withdrawing or making a concentration check or eating an AoO. Spiked gauntlets only do 1d4/x2, but with the banner and arcane strike you'll be rocking such a nice flat bonus to damage that you'll hardly notice.
This is easier to accomplish with armor spikes, since you don't need to fiddle with handedness, but they're martial and probably not worth a feat or a dip.
Note: Cesti have a better crit rate than spiked gauntlets, which is tempting with all those juicy, multiplicative damage bonuses you'll have; however, beware the -2 penalty to some skill checks, which would probably include playing most instruments. Your call.
more good stuff
I personally don't like the Flagbearer feat since it grants a moral bonus and bards get both heroism and the mighty Good Hope. But Banner of the Ancient Kings + Bard + Longspear is really good.
If the GM is fine with Longspear without penalty + able to use arcane bond + Banner of the Ancient Kings (or even spear + Banner of the Ancient Kings) then that would be cool. True it is not until higher levels one can afford a Banner of the Ancient Kings, but man is it good. I still think archer bards are better for a, but if theis could be a really nice option.
BTW, Speaking of good hope. At higher levels a bard can actually activate inspire courage (move action) cast Haste as a swift action and cast Good Hope as a standard action. The best buff combo in the game all done in one round. Bards rock.
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Dirge Bard, Gnome
Alt, racials, Fell magic, Dark Vision, Gift of tounges
25pt buy
Str:12
Dex:16
Con:14
Int:8 (ya ya, but I get so many skills and bonuses idc really, though if people can prove where this is a great flaw I will drop wis to 10)
Wis:12
Cha:18
Feats
1-Point Blank shot
3-precise shot
5-arcane strike
7-deadly aim
9-Lingereing performance or extra performance(prob extra)
11-Discordant Voice
13- Spell focus Illusion
15- Spell Song
17- ???
???
???
I don't really have a problem with the 8 int, as long as you aren't expecting or expected to be the knowledge check machine. You'll still do fine with identifying undead, and if that's all that matters to you, go for it.
There are some feat issues, though:
1. You don't qualify for Manyshot at 7th; you need a +6 BAB, and Rapid Shot.
2. I'd consider taking Precise Shot ahead of Arcane Strike ("Strike", not "Shot", though it's easy to get confused with all the "shot" feats lol). Hitting is more important than damage, and it ramps up to +2 dmg at 5th anyway. Heck, I'd consider taking Rapid Shot first, too. I'm not really sure how the math works out, but someone else probably does.
3. I wouldn't worry about Extra Performance, at least not by 9th level. You'll have a lot of rounds per day by then, and Lingering Performance will do more to preserve them than a flat +6 would. By 7th you can restart a performance as a move action, which you can cram in beside some spellcasting or a standard attack if you must.
Lingereing performance will be better. Trust me.
Dirge Bard, Gnome
Alt, racials, Fell magic, Dark Vision, Gift of tounges
25pt buy
Str:12
Dex:16
Con:14
Int:8 (ya ya, but I get so many skills and bonuses idc really, though if people can prove where this is a great flaw I will drop wis to 10)
Wis:12
Cha:18Feats
1-Point Blank shot
3-precise shot
5-arcane strike
7-deadly aim
9-Lingereing performance or extra performance(prob extra)
11-Discordant Voice
13- Spell focus Illusion
15- Spell Song
17- ???
???
???
Hafling might be a better pick since they get bonus to dex, but Gnome are fun.
Spell focus Illusion? At that level you probably should pick spell penetration or even spell focus Necromancy.
Don't forget great fortitude.
"if people can prove where this is a great flaw"?
- You are a Bard. That should be enough. Do you really want to be a stupid bard. Do you really want to role play your bard as a stupid character? If that isn't good enough here are som hard facts:
Lot of your abilities are based on investing skills into them for them to shine: Haunting Refrain, Secrets of the Grave, Bardic knowledge, Distraction, Countersong.
True that both Distraction and Countersong are circumstantial and rather weak.
Also true that you don’t have to max every knowledge skills, but maxing at least one and adding at least one skill rank to each knowledge skill is a good move.
Move will be a problem, but that problem will be gone as soon as you get Phantom Steed so you might want to max out ride or at least put some ranks into it.
Skills you do want to max are: Use magic Device, Perception, Acrobatics, and some of the social skills such as Diplomacy or/and Bluff. Possibly even Sense motive. As a spell caster and buffer you want to max out spell craft so you can identify incoming magical attacks or know what your are dealing with. Also as a Bard you want at least one rank in Appraise and some ranks in knowledge arcana.
Then you might like to add ranks to stealth especially since you are small. You also want to add some ranks linguistics so you can speak, intimidate and use language dependent spells.
I could go on.
You get many class skills, but not many skills. I would easily swap wisdom and int and even boost int to 14 if I could, but 12 at the minimum. Especially if I have 25 PB. BTW, as an archer you don’t need 14 con. There are traits that let you boost fortitude saves and magic items.
OK. That is it for me. Good gaming.