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Some pretty damning claims are coming out against North korea including outright concentration camps and deliberate mass starvation.
Are these true or *casts summon goblin* some capitalist plot?
If so what can/should we do about it?
He's best buds with Dennis Rodman. It must be b/s.
It seems the evidence is plentiful. NK is really really messed up.
These things have been the case for a while, but they're so hostile to any outside visitors that it's actually rather difficult to gather this level of intelligence.
If it weren't for the fact that they are BFFs with China, I'm sure we'd have rolled in there ages ago.
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Are these true or *casts summon goblin* some capitalist plot?
To seriously answer your question,
here's Kim Jong Il's mourners.
and now,
here's JFK's mourners, who I'm pretty much sure were there of their own volition.
You'll notice there's a not so subtle difference here. In one group, there's a quiet dignity; another group has a bunch of people desperately failing bluff checks.
There's something funky going on over there.
I vote we make a deal with the Chinese where NK gets one week to surrender to South Korea. And then both armies invade if they don't.
It's not a simple thing. If war happens, it will be patently impossible to evacuate Seoul in any sort of reasonable time frame. War would likely cost millions of lives. And that's not counting nuclear weapons.
Yeah. It's ugly. No, you can't really do anything about it.
Didn't expect NorseWolf to troll. And if this isn't trolling, then I'm not sure what's going on.
Not trolling in the least. Its a combination of "the extent of this *@@(##( sounds too #$(#$(#$(*# up to be true and at least being open to the possibility that we're not getting an accurate story (cough, wmds,).
Any change in NK has to appear to be internal or at the behest of its PRC masters. Unfortunately the SK or the West starting anything will be a provocation that China can not ignore....
The best you can hope for is that China realises that they are wasting a market for thier goods and arranges a coup and puts somebody sane incharge.
If I was a diplomat that's the way I would be selling it to the Chinese.
I think even China is tired of the crap NK is pulling. They have threatened NK with stepping in and solving that nation's problems before, when it was threatening the U.S. enough to make our politicians start seriously considering whether or not a war with China was worth risking by invading NK. NK threw a bit of its bluster at China after that, but shut up rather quickly.
So at this point, I suspect the PRC stepping in and solving the problem for us is only a matter of time. Because the PRC will not put up with NK being a pain in their market strategies forever. Making it a point to cut a deal with China beforehand opens up the possibility of reuniting the Koreas and making life easier for a lot of people in that region.
As for China? They'll enjoy the good publicity, and they'll know that people won't fault them for their decision. So the only thing they have to lose is a loyal ally. For some reason, all of the communist and formerly communist powers seem to be rather big on encouraging other nations to be loyal to them and rather reluctant to cut ties to a loyal ally.
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There are some interesting books about life in North Korea.
Apparently, the Soviet Union propped up the economy and the fall of the Berlin Wall was the end of progress in North Korea. Now it is a state which has gone backwards (pylons still stand but the the wires have been scavenged and sold for food) and cannot adequately feed its people.
Chronic under-nourishment means that entire generations will be sickly, even if China took over tomorrow.
And why would China want to take responsibility for all those North Koreans? Anyone who remembers the impact on the West German economy of absorbing the poverty and disadvantage in East Germany can understand that China might not be interested in North Korea.
For reasons of history, geography and the fear of nuclear annihilation, the only country which would probably take on North Korea's problems is South Korea. They'd have to knock down and rebuild most public institutions (schools, hospitals, etc.) to meet modern safety standards; resurface the roads; rebuild the wider transport network; replace the electricity grid (including building a series of power stations) and generally overhaul the entire nation.
At the same time, they'd have to feed and nourish thousands of people, re-educate them from a land of brain-washing-leader-cult and find jobs for most of them (probably in construction, as they rebuilt everything).
They'd also have to dismantle the military leadership, re-build all of the civic institutions (courts, civil service, etc.) and root out the cultures of patronage and graft which grow up in places like this.
Oh, and cope with the huge flood of people who would move to Southern cities like Seoul.
So, internal change is what everyone wants... apart from the small elite that runs North Korea.
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I took a course on East Asian culture and politics and there was a whole section on North Korea. I could go on in depth about Juche and hero worship and their type of command economy and why, historically, they behave like they do...
But none of that makes what they do any saner.
To be honest, we should get the rest of the world to just ignore NK. Completely ignore, no aid, no communications, no 'commerce,' nothing.
Overt, military action is going to go poorly and probably end badly for all involved, particularly NK citizens. We can't save them by killing them. The emotional hold of the regime is fading. There are videos being smuggled out of the country that show people (usually women) arguing with uniformed officers. That would be something unheard of 15 years ago. Its impossible to create an underground resistance network. If you're suspected of sedition, the regime scoops up pretty much everyone you've ever known or had contact with and puts them in a camp.
I don't think there's anything we can do concretely right now, or at least nothing big (improving methods of smuggling information in and out would help). Give it another 5 years and reevaluate IMO.
Nothing will happen. Unlike Nazi Germany North Korea is only rattling its sabre but not actually threatening anyone the West or East care about and they don't have anything worth occupying them for. Violations of human rights have never sparked a war, they only were excuses.
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It seems the evidence is plentiful. NK is really really messed up.
These things have been the case for a while, but they're so hostile to any outside visitors that it's actually rather difficult to gather this level of intelligence.If it weren't for the fact that they are BFFs with China, I'm sure we'd have rolled in there ages ago.
Well, nukes, even crappy ones are a pretty neat deterrent.
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While it's terrible that so many Norh Koreans are suffering, I'm of the opinion that the US should do absolutely nothing (beyond continued support to South Korea). China has been extremely boisterous in trying to claim that part of the world as their sphere if influence. They want it so bad, let them have it - along with all the problems that go with it. Besides which, it seems to be a problem in large part of their own making anyway.
Not to mention, I think the Chinese are the only ones with the balls to be able to solve he problem the way it might need to be solved - arrest and execution/imprisonment of all top NK government officials and institution of a new government. The Chinese might be able to pull that off with a minimum of bloodshed.
Are these true or *casts summon goblin* some capitalist plot?
Which goblin are you summoning?
If you want Comrade Anklebiter, he will talk about the betrayals of Stalinism and its accomodationism to world capitalism and talk about the need for revolutionary unification, socialist revolution in the South and political revolution to oust the parasitic caste in the North. What can we do? Fight for socialism in the belly of the imperialist beast.
If you want Vo Giap, Ambassador of Bachuan, he will call all of you gwailos and post links to Obama slashing food stamps and wikileaks cables about how the United States undermined Haiti's attempt to raise the minimum wage and then will threaten all of you with nuclear annihilation.
To be honest, we should get the rest of the world to just ignore NK. Completely ignore, no aid, no communications, no 'commerce,' nothing.
Its a modern day holocaust you're ignoring there.
To be honest, we should get the rest of the world to just ignore NK. Completely ignore, no aid, no communications, no 'commerce,' nothing.Its a modern day holocaust you're ignoring there.
As I already wrote, you will not get anyone with the power to do something to care. Unless North Korea starts expanding or they find huge deposits of oil, diamonds or rare earths that NK doesn't want to share peacefully nothing will happen.
To be honest, we should get the rest of the world to just ignore NK. Completely ignore, no aid, no communications, no 'commerce,' nothing.Its a modern day holocaust you're ignoring there.
I don't think we can make it better though.
An invasion would kill hundreds of thousands of North Koreans. It would also endanger nearly the entire 50 million people of South Korea. The Chinese city of Dandong (780,000) that is right on the border could suffer as well, not to mention the thousands of soldiers who would die trying to topple the regime.
An invasion would serve as a unifying and rallying cause for the population of North Korea. Strengthening the regime in the short run, making it easier for them to purge citizens within the country with impunity. An people saved from future years of abuse would be reduced by an immediate increase in political executions.
In the short term, I don't think there is a lot to be done.
I think he wanted Dicey.
I didn't even think of that. I'm pretty conceited.
[Stands in corner and awaits opportunity to ambush Dicey]
Yeah...unless China agrees I don't see a military or any other kind of action working.
He's best buds with Dennis Rodman. It must be b/s.
{meanwhile... SCENE: Sterile laboratory, with Dennis Rodman strapped to a chair} Ah gut, Herr Rodman, you're avake. You've made remarkable progress with your smallarms and sniper training, and re-honed your dormant unarmed combat training. Today should also bist your final Ludovico Technique session.
{nods at long narrow suitcase leaning in corner} Yes, Operation: Basketball Diplomacy will soon be a success. You might think your codename, Manchurian Candidate, ill-chosen; I assure you, it could not be more apt.
But enouv mit dem chit-chat... time to go to work...
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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You know we did fight a war in Korea, right? We kicked the crap out of the North Koreans until the Chinese put 200,000 men across the border.
Military intervention would be difficult and costly in terms of both lives and money. The fact that we have the strategic force projection capability hammer doesn't make every genocide or mass killing a nail. We cannot intervene everywhere, so we must choose to intervene only when it affects our national interests.
The ideal solution to the NK problem would be a peaceful reunification resulting from an internal coup against the Juche regime, or the Chinese finally deciding that the Kims' craziness is more trouble than it's worth.
So I saw the headline when the newsstory first was going 'round in the bourgeois press, but even they were skeptical saying it came from an anti-NK faction of the CCP paper, but, uh, did Kim III really have his uncle torn apart by ravenous dogs?
'Cuz that's not Grandfather Pei Thought at all.
South Korean lawmaker Lee Seok-ki jailed for plotting armed rebellion
South Korea Rail Workers Strike against Privatization
For Revolutionary Reunification!
Vive le Bachuan!
NO, YOU UNDERSTAND WRONG
CONCENTRATION CAMP IS FOR BETTER THINKING
PERSON IN HOME, WATCHING DIRTY WESTERN PIG TV? NO CONCENTRATED
PERSON IN CAMP, WATCHING GLORIOUS LEADER VIDEO AND PUNCHING ROCK TO MAKE TINIER ROCKS? YES CONCENTRATED
REGIME ALSO MAKE ORANGE JUICE THERE. HIGHER CONCENTRATION
THIS PROPAGANDA MAKES GLORIOUS LEADER OF BOTHERED
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I took a course on East Asian culture and politics and there was a whole section on North Korea. I could go on in depth about Juche and hero worship and their type of command economy and why, historically, they behave like they do...
But none of that makes what they do any saner.
But it might be enlightening for some of us: I'd love to read some insight from someone who has studied the place.
I love all their stories.
"It's so surreal. There's nothing normal. Ever. That happens in this whole country."
I like the tea girl at the end, God bless her.
To be honest, we should get the rest of the world to just ignore NK. Completely ignore, no aid, no communications, no 'commerce,' nothing.Its a modern day holocaust you're ignoring there.
Shy of sending in a team of assassins to kill every member of goofballs family, and all the military leaders (probably of Colonel rank and higher) and all the government officials, any other attempt to stop it will result in the deaths of millions of Koreans on both sides along with numerous soldiers from any country participating, and tens of thousands of Japanese, Chinese, and probably Russian civilians.
EDIT: Even the assassination method if successful would result in a massive number of deaths, due to the resulting chaos in the country.
A conventional war against North Korea would be won in days, maybe weeks, at the outside. South Korea, by itself, possesses sufficient firepower to destroy the North Korean army and its military infrastructure. The North Korean army is bigger in terms of raw numbers, but they are malnourished (NK had to lower the minimum height requirement of its army several years ago as a result of this) and extraordinarily badly-equipped.
There are two big question marks. One is over nuclear weapons and over NK can actually deploy them in a militarily useful fashion. The second is over the alleged 10,000 artillery guns ranged against Seoul, which have apparently gone without servicing for years and are quite old and of uncertain reliability.
Make no mistake, North Korea can theoretically do significant damage to the South, but we are not talking about millions of deaths here. North Korea's ability to use its nukes for offensive purposes seems extremely limited, so any conflict would be restricted mostly to conventional weapons. And in that area, South Korea, Japan and the USA would curb-stomp the North into submission within days. They would certainly gain naval and aerial superiority immediately.
However, that is not to say that military action is the answer. It would open pandora's box and the risk of a Chinese intervention (even if it would likely be a 'humanitarian' incursion into the north, not risking conflict with the Americans and their allies) is high. It would create millions of refugees which would trouble China, South Korea and possibly the far south-east of Russia. For the duration of any conflict, even if it was just a few weeks, food shipments would probably not get into the country and trigger the risk of mass starvation (NK has still not recovered from a famine in the early 1990s that killed a million people, and is 100% dependent on China and on its own black market to survive).
There is also a huge question mark over South Korea's desire for reunification. SK is one of the richest, most developed countries in the world. NK is one of the poorest and least sophisticated. Germany suffered from sociological and economic problems for years (and still does, to a more limited extent) as a result of reuniting East and West, and the gap between the two was a lot narrower. Korean reunification could bankrupt even mega-rich South Korea unless there was substantial help from the outside world.
I think it is clear that the situation in North Korea has become desperate and there are now those in China who would even favour North Korea being lost to the capitalist west's sphere of influence if it removes the danger of an Asian war from their backyard, whilst there are those in the USA who would even favour NK being taken over completely by China if it solves the humanitarian crisis and reduces the risk of war. The most favourable outcome overall, however, is if the growing dissent in North Korea, which is now at levels never before seen in the country, blows up into an outright revolution, the government is overthrown and a new one is established which can being organising a transition to reunification in an orderly fashion. A few years ago that would have been unthinkable, but now it appears to be at least possible. Another question is if North Korea can survive that long without either economically collapsing altogether, or without the government feeling their backs are against the wall and having to attack South Korea or lose their ability to do so.
And with South Korea attacking its rail workers' union and throwing dissidents in jail for plotting "armed rebellion" the time for revolutionary reunification is now!
Comrades, overthrow the chaebols in the South and the Kims in the North!
For international proletarian socialist revolution!
Vive le Grandfather Pei Thought!
Is there any way we could just GIVE north Korea to the Chinese? I mean the chinese aren't exactly the hot bed of freedom and democracy but they couldn't do a worse job running the place...
shy of sending in a team of assassins to kill every member of goofballs family,
Every family has at least one nut. That mixed bag of nuts must have at least one sane person right? We kill everyone else and plop them on the throne.
Is there any way we could just GIVE north Korea to the Chinese? I mean the chinese aren't exactly the hot bed of freedom and democracy but they couldn't do a worse job running the place...
shy of sending in a team of assassins to kill every member of goofballs family,Every family has at least one nut. That mixed bag of nuts must have at least one sane person right? We kill everyone else and plop them on the throne.
Actually, I think it is quite possible that the crazy in charge may have already killed the sane members of his family. Paranoia tends to work that way.
Isn't that exactly what happened? Kim's uncle Jang Sung-taek was executed.
Correct that he was executed. But, I don't know that his uncle was the "sane" family member who would have been a boon to North Korea if he were in power which was the basis of the short conversation being commented upon.
Isn't that exactly what happened? Kim's uncle Jang Sung-taek was executed.Correct that he was executed. But, I don't know that his uncle was the "sane" family member who would have been a boon to North Korea if he were in power which was the basis of the short conversation being commented upon.
I doubt there's anyone sane left in that family. So, pretty much, we would have to kill them all and dissolve the nation into another nation.
China doesn't want it; they had their chance years ago and didn't take it, and these days they've got bigger problems. Russia definitely doesn't want it. And the U.S. doesn't have the resources to fix everything that is wrong in NK anymore.
About the only people who want NK are South Korea.
Correct that he was executed. But, I don't know that his uncle was the "sane" family member who would have been a boon to North Korea if he were in power which was the basis of the short conversation being commented upon.
He would have been a boon, or at least an improvement. He was very close to China and had a plan to turn North Korea into a 'mini-China' by opening it up to investment, opening factories for cheap labour etc. His idea was that the regime could remain in power whilst easing its harshness and restrictive measures and enriching both the country and its people. His nephew clearly saw even this as a threat to his position and that of the family.
I thought the nephew had been out of the country for a bit to ease the crazytrain...
As long as the most immoral regime on earth is being paid for by the second most immoral regime on earth, nothing will ever change.