|
I've seen items worth only 375 GP (available from the core book) on a Tier 4-5 Chronicle Sheet list. What the heck for? What realistic (common) situations would players find themselves in that their 4th level character (after 9 successful events) would not even have 5 PP?
So, there's this contentious argument around our PFS events (and our VC concurred with the judgement) that this means the player can buy anything off of any of their sheets at any time during play (except during a battle). The reasoning for this is the assumption that the player could have obtained that particular item anyways due to the adventure it was found in and only has to pay for the gold to be able to produce it from their pack.
Flame away!
|
There's nothing in the Guide that indicates that items on chronicles can be produced on demand (assumed to have been carried all along). Taking it to its logical (and ridiculous) conclusion, many characters should have crippling encumbrance from all the items on their chronicles that they could pull from their pack at a moment's notice.
Developer
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Flame away at what? This is a fair question, though I've seen a few components of it asked in the past. Let's see what I can do to clarify the matter.
Items that seem worthless (because the likely Fame values of a PC of that level should make the item's presence on a Chronicle sheet redundant) have a long history in Pathfinder Society, and the reason has evolved over time. When the campaign began, any item that was not "always available" (e.g. +1 weapons/armor, 1st-level scroll and potions) showed up on a Chronicle sheet. During Season 0, most scenarios only awarded the equivalent of 1 Fame, so those "worthless" items actually had some meaning. Keep in mind that when characters could "play up" more easily, sometimes a level 1 or level 2 character could have that 375 gp item on his or her Chronicle sheet, so it actually would mean something.
The practice stuck around until about the time I joined the PFS production team a year ago. I now have a rough metric of when an item reaches the hopelessly "worthless" point, at which point I take it off the Chronicle sheet. It's why you don't see cloaks of resistance +1 in Tier 7–11 scenarios or potions of barkskin at CL 3rd on high-end Adventure Path Chronicle sheets anymore.
With that out of the way, let me address the conclusion that you've presented: in effect, that the character can buy anything on one of these Chronicle sheets at a moment's notice—even if that character is a mile underground in a sealed demiplane—so long as it's not during combat. This is not the case. Items that show up on Chronicle sheets are not kept in a nebulous storage capsule of things that you can purchase retroactively at a moment's notice. They are items that are added to your legal purchase list (normally consisting of the "always available" list and anything you've unlocked with Fame), but one must still go through the standard channels for acquiring them.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
Was it that way in a long ago version of the guide? Because that's the way I remembered the rule, too (in fact, if Prethen is who I think he is, this VC's mistaken ruling may be my fault, as it is how I presented it when she was brand new to the game years ago). I had always thought that was a neat approach, regardless of Matthew's and Paz's scorn. It certainly isn't any worse than the idea that all six players at a table have access to the same +1 flaming burst battle axe that was found on a corpse after a fight. /-:
Anyhoo, if not, thanks for clarifying, John. Funny how mistaken impressions can stick with you forever...
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
|
Items that show up on Chronicle sheets are not kept in a nebulous storage capsule of things that you can purchase retroactively at a moment's notice. They are items that are added to your legal purchase list (normally consisting of the "always available" list and anything you've unlocked with Fame), but one must still go through the standard channels for acquiring them.
Reading your response, does this mean that Fame requirements do not need to be met to purchase something listed on a Chronicle? Or do those Fame requirements STILL restrict that purchase until the fame level is hit? I ask this because I may be doing a grave disservice to my players; they have been waiting until they reach Fame requirements, just to be safe.
|
Developer
|
Was it that way in a long ago version of the guide? Because that's the way I remembered the rule, too (in fact, if Prethen is who I think he is, this VC's mistaken ruling may be my fault, as it is how I presented it when she was brand new to the game years ago). I had always thought that was a neat approach, regardless of Matthew's and Paz's scorn. It certainly isn't any worse than the idea that all six players at a table have access to the same +1 flaming burst battle axe that was found on a corpse after a fight. /-:
Anyhoo, if not, thanks for clarifying, John. Funny how mistaken impressions can stick with you forever...
There's the possibility that that was in an earlier version of the Guide, but I'll have to wait until I'm back in the office tomorrow to check. You're right that there are some rather meta rules out there--particularly those that keep things balanced on a wealth earned, items available basis.
I'm sure I still have some mistaken impressions floating around in my head, too. We'll see what's what with some research.
|
So, there's this contentious argument around our PFS events (and our VC concurred with the judgement) that this means the player can buy anything off of any of their sheets at any time during play (except during a battle). The reasoning for this is the assumption that the player could have obtained that particular item anyways due to the adventure it was found in and only has to pay for the gold to be able to produce it from their pack.
Provided I understood the original post correctly, I think this may be covered on pages 21, 22, 23, and 25 of the current Guide to Organized Play.
In regards to anything on chronicle sheets...
Page 21:
"A GM must be present in order for you to purchase items. This can be done before, during or after the adventure."
Page 21-22:
"Some items may be so valuable that the gold you receive in one scenario is insufficient to purchase it. If you are unable to purchase a valuable item immediately, you can save up your gold and purchase it during or after another scenario. Every item listed on your Chronicle sheets is considered always available for purchase for you, regardless of whether it’s on your first Chronicle sheet or your 21st Chronicle sheet. The only exceptions are items that have a purchase limit. You may never purchase more of that item throughout the life of your character than the number amount listed as the purchase limit."
In regards to anything purchased via Prestige points...
Page 23:
"For the sake of ease of play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, players may always buy gear, spells and so on so long as their characters are in a town of more than 5,000 residents. Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every faction has at least one representative in every small city or larger settlement on Golarion. If outside of a town, PCs may be restricted from buying anything, though this varies by scenario."
Page 25:
"Characters may not spend Prestige Points during combat. For the sake of simplicity, many GMs might consider limiting characters to spending Prestige Points only once per gaming session."
Prestige is the only area where I can find the location of purchase or 'not in combat' limitations so far.
I'd imagine the chronicle sheet purchases might get the "While this system isn’t entirely realistic..." stamp on it, which appears a few times in this chapter.
|
|
'wait - you are looking for something - no worry - I'm sure I bought it earlier and forgot about it. Just let me check my backpack.'
Theodum, Wizard 11, Pathfinder Chronicler 1
The Deep Pockets class feature of the Pathfinder Chronicler is to my knowledge the only way to 'buy' something anytime / anywhere. Even during combat - albeit a full round action might be spend better in other ways.
This was one of the main attractions to add a level of Chronicler to my wizard. Very good for the obscure level 1 scroll or for other strange but cheap/light items. But I doubt chronicle items will be often in Theodums bag - most don't qualify.
|
|
With that out of the way, let me address the conclusion that you've presented: in effect, that the character can buy anything on one of these Chronicle sheets at a moment's notice—even if that character is a mile underground in a sealed demiplane—so long as it's not during combat. This is not the case. Items that show up on Chronicle sheets are not kept in a nebulous storage capsule of things that you can purchase retroactively at a moment's notice. They are items that are added to your legal purchase list (normally consisting of the "always available" list and anything you've unlocked with Fame), but one must still go through the standard channels for acquiring them....although looking at it now, that sure does seem like a neat one-off boon to have, doesn't it? Makes some of those older mods sheets potentially useful under the right circumstance.
Fame requirements do not need to be met in order to purchase items off a chronicle sheet.Items that show up on Chronicle sheets are not kept in a nebulous storage capsule of things that you can purchase retroactively at a moment's notice. They are items that are added to your legal purchase list (normally consisting of the "always available" list and anything you've unlocked with Fame), but one must still go through the standard channels for acquiring them.Reading your response, does this mean that Fame requirements do not need to be met to purchase something listed on a Chronicle? Or do those Fame requirements STILL restrict that purchase until the fame level is hit? I ask this because I may be doing a grave disservice to my players; they have been waiting until they reach Fame requirements, just to be safe.
Yup, yup.
Purchase Limitations:
1) Anything on the Alweays Available list is always available to purchase, in a town of sufficient size, and when you are not in an inaccessible location.*
2) Anything listed on a chronicle sheet becomes always available for purchase, up to any limit listed for the item.
3) Last, but probably not least, any PFS-legal item from a resource you have legal access to, up to the gold limit your Fame allows, becomes always available for purchase.
So:
1st level potions and scrolls are always available.
That potion of Cure Moderate Wounds becomes available to purchase after you have played a scenario, for that character, when it is listed on the scenario's chronicle (and not crossed off because your party didn't find it.)
It would also become always available once your character reaches 5 Fame, since it is a 300 gp item.
* Consider that size and location limitation to apply in all cases.
Something that some GMs forget about: Depending on the goals of the scenario or module, and the general location, it can be possible for a party to retreat from where they are, head into town, and buy stuff, and then come back.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
'wait - you are looking for something - no worry - I'm sure I bought it earlier and forgot about it. Just let me check my backpack.'
Theodum, Wizard 11, Pathfinder Chronicler 1
The Deep Pockets class feature of the Pathfinder Chronicler is to my knowledge the only way to 'buy' something anytime / anywhere. Even during combat - albeit a full round action might be spend better in other ways.
This was one of the main attractions to add a level of Chronicler to my wizard. Very good for the obscure level 1 scroll or for other strange but cheap/light items. But I doubt chronicle items will be often in Theodums bag - most don't qualify.
It's also not much different than the Halfling feat Well-Prepared from the Advanced Player's Guide:
Benefit: Once per day, when confronted with a situation that calls for a particular mundane item of equipment, you may make a Sleight of Hand check with a DC of 10 plus the item’s cost in gold pieces to “happen” to have such an item on your person. For example, having a crowbar would be DC 12, whereas a flask of acid would be DC 20. The item must be something you can easily carry—if you are on foot and have only a backpack, for example, you could not have a large iron cauldron. You cannot have magical items using this feat, nor can you have specific items, such as the key to a particular door. If you are stripped of your equipment or possessions, you lose the benefits of this feat until you have at least a day to resupply and “acquire” new items. You must pay for these items normally.
Considering these two options, I would think that the idea of being able to find something you have on a chronicle sheet at your disposal in a time of need would be a pretty neat benefit. It would certainly make those "worthless" potions and scrolls suddenly very worthwhile every now and then.
I think this kind of interpretation is something to consider, John.
Not, by the way, that I'm not serious about what I said above: you should consider adding this rule. It'd make the "why is this crap on a chronicle, anyway?" questions a lot more fun to answer.
|
|
I gotta disagree, Drogon. We already give up enough verisimilitude with the campaign rules as they stand. Having every Pathfinder wandering around with a bag full of "Oh, I have just the right item for this event," stretches credulity even further.
There's another reason, too: part of Pathfinder (and D&D) is planning your equipment and magic items ahead of time, then going in and seeing if you're really ready to deal with the challenges. Giving "magic bag" access to purchase items as needed during the scenario reduces the challenge inherent in the planning portion of the game. YMMV, IMHO, etc. We might as well remove encumbrance rules while we're at it.
If you're in a town (or have time to travel to a town) that has the items available during a scenario, then buy whatever you need. If you're in a dungeon in the middle of nowhere with the nearest town 2 days' ride away by horse, then I hope you're not under any time constraints.
|
|
If you're in a dungeon in the middle of nowhere with the nearest town 2 days' ride away by horse, then I hope you're not under any time constraints.
Or have a couple teleports prepared. I once played in 10-11 with something like 4 or 5 teleports around the table. I tried to keep from chuckling as the GM was summarizing the conclusion at the end, which included days of mundane travel back to wherever.
Screw that, I'm an Eldritch Knight! I have teleport and overland flight! Why would I use legs when I have spells?
|
|
Paz's scorn
Eh what? No scorn was intended. I was just trying to give a logical argument as to why it wouldn't be sensible to allow it.
|
Developer
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I check up on this earlier this morning by looking at the Season 0 and Season 1 Guides, and the best I could dig up was that the term "always available" might be interpreted to mean "always available."
I'm not ready to provide a blanket revision as to when someone can buy items from a Chronicle sheet, but as I believe was mentioned above, it could be an interesting convention boon in the future.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
Fair point, John Cary. As someone who started playing this game with 1st Edition rules, I can appreciate the strategic aspect of it. I'm honestly fine, either way, and am merely willing the see the favorable argument of my original (mis)interpretation.
And, John Compton, I can fully understand not revising rules. Definitely a neat convention boon, though, I agree.
Paz, using words like "ridiculous" implies scorn. If that's not what you mean to imply, don't use those words. I've never know you to be hyperbolic, so am willing to accept you weren't intending that, however. So, it's all good. (-:
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg
|
It certainly isn't any worse than the idea that all six players at a table have access to the same +1 flaming burst battle axe that was found on a corpse after a fight.
The way I imagine this is:
- The characters return to the local Pathfinder lodge with the magic item they "found" during their adventure.- They are expected to hand in everything for close inspection. They receive some gold and a receipt listing what they contributed to the Society's vaults.
- Any time in the future they are allowed to visit the vaults, present their receipt, and buy a magic item they have previously found. The items they get at this point are not the originals they found, but have been crafted by mages who's only job is to produce magic items for the Society.
If you think about this, this looks a bit like a professional criminal organization. They buy items that have blood and personal insignia on them and trade them for fresh, neutral versions. *lol*
This theory only becomes a bit thin when it comes to truly unique items, like the rare intelligent items, but that's just the little illogical parts that are neccessary in a global campaign :P
