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Do you have the same rule for extended 1/hour per level spells? What about spells with 1/day or longer effects?
Hmm...my main concern is about buff stacking. So a 1/day charm monster I wouldn't care about, but 1/hour buff spell I would probably count against the limit. The main intent is preventing the group from milking extra castings through Recuperation with long duration spells.
That said, I'm actually running a mythic campaign, but my group hasn't attempted to do this yet though so I haven't needed to actually address this. My group is pretty good about self-policing though, but I can see it being an issue for others.
Do you have the same rule for extended 1/hour per level spells? What about spells with 1/day or longer effects?Hmm...my main concern is about buff stacking. So a 1/day charm monster I wouldn't care about, but 1/hour buff spell I would probably count against the limit. The main intent is preventing the group from milking extra castings through Recuperation with long duration spells.
That said, I'm actually running a mythic campaign, but my group hasn't attempted to do this yet though so I haven't needed to actually address this. My group is pretty good about self-policing though, but I can see it being an issue for others.
I agree that using an entire days worth of spells to buff then spending one mythic point would be goofy and a DM should tell the players no because it's obvious metagaming but making my mage armour fall of is also kinda goofy. we are just about to hit tier 3 (i dm and run a dmpc) how have your payers used recuperation so far if they have? Did you give players all those spells back and did you find anything overly powerful because of it
So basically, what are you saing Ryjin is that you prepare the spell at the sunrise like any normal, person. Then, at midday, you spend a mithyc point to regain your spells. But oh wait you already gained your spells once this day. So no spell for you. That would be like first print prone shooter round 2.
You get a lot of stuff back- bard song, rage, class abilities (like Sorc bloodline), and channeling. And *IF* it's been 8 hours, then spells- rather than having to sleep for 8 hours un-interrupted. Not to mention healing half your HP.
Even if it didn't effect spells at all, this would still be extremely useful. And it's free.
So, comparing this to Prone shooter is totally invalid.
So basically, what are you saing Ryjin is that you prepare the spell at the sunrise like any normal, person. Then, at midday, you spend a mithyc point to regain your spells. But oh wait you already gained your spells once this day. So no spell for you. That would be like first print prone shooter round 2.
You get a lot of stuff back- bard song, rage, class abilities (like Sorc bloodline), and channeling. And *IF* it's been 8 hours, then spells- rather than having to sleep for 8 hours un-interrupted. Not to mention healing half your HP.
Even if it didn't effect spells at all, this would still be extremely useful. And it's free.
So, comparing this to Prone shooter is totally invalid.
I think he ment that it was prone shorter level of poorly thought out why call out regaining spells with out clearly stating how it would work or interact with the rules normally preventing regaining spells if it wasn't intending to circumvent the rules entire as you read it the regain spells aspect (an aspect called out in the ability) hardly works
I feel like you guys have spent hours combing rules to find an excuse to stop somthing you just dont like, honestly what is the problem with the ability as written, the one that gives spells back a wizard can normally only cast x spells a day and a barb can only rage x round a day this ability circumvents those limits could a barb rage untill he was out of rage sleep for 8 how rage till he was out the sleep again regaining his rage rounds 3 times in one day and if not why does recuperate circumvent this limt but not the spell limit? Why does the barb get to take naps and not the spellcasters is it just because you think casters are just too good?
So basically, what are you saing Ryjin is that you prepare the spell at the sunrise like any normal, person. Then, at midday, you spend a mithyc point to regain your spells. But oh wait you already gained your spells once this day. So no spell for you. That would be like first print prone shooter round 2.
I never said you can only regain spells once a day. Please read before commenting.
The recent casting limit prevents you from preparing spells you have cast within 8 hours.
So, say you have 20 spells.
You prepare at 6 AM and start adventuring.
You cast 3 buff spells (Mage Armor, Overland Flight, and something else, let's say) when you get started.
At 9, you have an encounter. You blow a Haste.
At 10, you have another encounter. You Fireball a bunch of Vegepygmies and move on.
At 11, you have a third encounter. This one's rough, you blow a Haste, then a Fireball, a Mirror Image, and a Magic Missile to finish off teh guy.
At 12, you have 11 spells left.
Since you started at 6, you can't recover any of the spells you have cast yet (the most recent was 6 hours ago).
Now, wait until 1 PM. Sleep, use your Mythic point.
You got back the 3 buff spells you cast earlier (they were now 8 hours ago).
Wait until later in the evening (like 7 PM) and you can get back ALL of your spells in an hour (since the last time you cast a spell was at 11 PM, 8 hours ago).
Ready to go, back at full strength, in an hour. Instead of 8 ( or 2, with a Ring of Sustenance).
That's as worthless as the original Prone Shooter to you?
Whatever the hell do you think the RAW is (and i'm still not agreeing with you) is pretty damn clear what the rule actually means.
Yes, it is VERY clear. But people seem to think the ability lets you get around a limit it makes no mention of.
Yes.
I personally have no stake in this matter either way. I am not "rooting" for any particular outcome (though I really DON'T like the idea of casters being able to recover spells 12 times a day potentially), but I can't see in the RAW this working as people want it to work.
I FAQed the thing, so maybe there'll be an answer.
While I enjoy these discussions, one of the tenets of Pathfinder is GM overrules RAW. I love seeing in the "Ask James Jacobs thread" someone asks him for a rules clarification and he responds with "Ask you GM" or "What your GM says".
In my mind the intent of this ability is to restore everything to a "fresh day's start" except Mythic. So in my games, that is how it works. Wizard blows all his spells in 20 minutes, spends a mythic point, rests for an hour and he gets this all back. But I have no reason to try and convince someone (like Rynjin) that my answer is the correct one. He runs it his way in his game. Doesn't make either of us wrong, in our games.
The legalistic wrangling over exact wording of "of sleep" seems too much like Magic: The Gathering (one of the reasons I stopped playing that game). RPGs have GMs to make these judgement calls.
But I would love to see this answered in the faq for original designer intent - even if it isn't my interpretation, it won't change how it runs for my game.
but I can't see in the RAW this working as people want it to work.
That's a mistake. People don't want it to work a certain way. People just think abilities do what they say they do.
Also it should be quite obvious how it COULD work in the RAW. People call me thick-headed, but at-least I can see how a tortured extrapolation of the general rules and inferences based off the function of ring-of-sustenance could lead one to think an ability doesn't do what it says it does.
See, you keep saying "tortured extrapolation" (or even "mangling of the rules" from one person) but I'm not sure how that's a valid label.
This requires no logical acrobatics, just a simple reading of the rules on magic.
And the ability does not overcome that by RAW.
Hence why I can't see why, by RAW, it should.
By RAI, perhaps (though I still disagree, I can definitely see that interpretation). But it's not what the ability actually SAYS, which is what you keep claiming.
Not sure how a Mythic Path that lets you memorize all your spells in 15 minutes is so great when there's already a Wizard Discovery that lets you do that.
And the ability does not overcome that by RAW.
Take a moment to realize that that is an opinion of yours.
And the ability does not overcome that by RAW.Take a moment to realize that that is an opinion of yours.
It's not an opinion, it really isn't.
It says nothing about overcoming any limitations besides sleep.
The devs have specifically stated on multiple occasions that the rules are not meant to be read in a "But it doesn't say I can't" manner.
They're supposed to be read in a "Here's what it says I can" way.
What it says you CAN is recover your spells as if you had slept for 8 hours.
What it DOESN'T say you can is overcome the recent casting limit, and just because it doesn't say you CAN'T doesn't mean you can.
Does that make sense?
Does that make sense?
Nope. Because the ability says you can explicitly and even goes so far as to override the 8-hour limit by making the rest count as 8-hours, but I digress, I have no intention of arguing that particular topic with you.
I'm just pointing out that you can't, with any sort of integrity, fail to see how it COULD work in RAW.
If an ability says you dont need to breath it doesnt have to call out that you can ignore suffocation effects it doesn't need to call out that that you don t have to hold your breath it says youndont breath we infer the effects of not breathing, it says yougain your spell you infer that YOU GAIN YOUR SPELLS
Bad example.
Again, I refer you to Cure spells.
They heal damage, yes?
They don't say you CAN'T heal damage below -Con.
But you quite clearly cannot use a Cure spell on someone who is Dead, because of tangential rules relating to them.
You may notice that every suffocation effect in the game specifically says "This spell only affects living creatures that must breathe.", " Creatures that do not need to breathe are immune to this spell.", and so on.
Bad example.
Again, I refer you to Cure spells.
They heal damage, yes?
They don't say you CAN'T heal damage below -Con.
But you quite clearly cannot use a Cure spell on someone who is Dead, because of tangential rules relating to them.
You may notice that every suffocation effect in the game specifically says "This spell only affects living creatures that must breathe.", " Creatures that do not need to breathe are immune to this spell.", and so on.
So why does ring of sustenance call out that it doesnt circomvent the rule but recuperation not call that out unless it was intended work
Also healspells target creatures dead bodies are not creatures
That would be the tangential rule I was referring to, yes.
But without referring to that rule, you might think Cure spells can target dead people.
Just like without reading the rules relating to magic, you might think a person can recover spells they've cast in the last 8 hours...
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But without referring to that rule, you might think Cure spells can target dead people.
Bad example. The spell specifically says it heals only living creatures.
That would be the tangential rule I was referring to, yes.
But without referring to that rule, you might think Cure spells can target dead people.
Just like without reading the rules relating to magic, you might think a person can recover spells they've cast in the last 8 hours...
Still dont see why the wording is diffrent for the ring if the ability was not intended to work diffrently
How bout this?
A normal caster has used up all their spells slots. What do they need to do to REGAIN those spells slots? Is it sleep 8 hours?
A normal caster uses up their spells slots and sleeps 8 hours at nite time wakes up in the morning and has regained their spell slots. Within that very first hour they blow all tehir spell slots. Can they wait 8 hours and go to sleep for 8 hours to regain their spells? Meaning is it ONLY sleeping for 8 hours is how casters get their spells back or is it sleeping AND waiting a time limit?
Im in the camp that thinks it only regains it once like normal and u only have to sleep for 1 instead of 8 to regain ur spells. Very useful fo dungeons or chase missions etc etc. Very useful all around for a caster.
Looking forward to the FAQ answer myself.
Although it seems there are two questions that frequently get muddled together, namely recent casting limit, and daily spells.
Rest: To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.
Some feel the mythic power overcomes recent casting limit quite fine, but that it still doesn't negate the daily part of preparing spells (daily, after all, meaning once a day).
1dai·ly
adjective \ˈdā-lē\: happening, done, made, used, or existing every day
: published every day or every day except Sunday
: of or relating to one day
Others feel it resets the whole mehanic, recent casting limit as well as the daily rule.
My personal feeling is that when casters don't get a second spell through amazing initiative, Pathfinder won't give them new spells every hour.
Looking forward to the FAQ answer myself.
Although it seems there are two questions that frequently get muddled together, namely recent casting limit, and daily spells.
Rest: To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.
Some feel the mythic power overcomes recent casting limit quite fine, but that it still doesn't negate the daily part of preparing spells (daily, after all, meaning once a day).
1dai·ly
adjective \ˈdā-lē\: happening, done, made, used, or existing every day
: published every day or every day except Sunday
: of or relating to one day
Others feel it resets the whole mehanic, recent casting limit as well as the daily rule.
My personal feeling is that when casters don't get a second spell through amazing initiative, Pathfinder won't give them new spells every hour.
By that logic barbs get x rounds per day of rage there for they do not get more rage because they only get x per day dont bring dictionary definitions to the game world there is not a mechanical limit on geting per day or daily abilitys back because the are named as such
There has always been a limit to spells per round to prevent abuse and droping 3 or more spells a round is a fqr cry from getting extra castings a day for an hour of rest and an hour of prep
Absolutly no one with an ability to read english would suggest that recuperation cannot restore uses of daily abilities such as rage or smite because they are "daily" but some people who for some reason dislike casters or just arn't good enough gm's to deal with caster are lookilling for a way to nerf them because hevon forbid the party buffer gets the same treatment as the beat stick
Stuff..By that logic barbs get x rounds per day of rage there for they do not get more rage because they only get x per day dont bring dictionary definitions to the game world there is not a mechanical limit on geting per day or daily abilitys back because the are named as such
There has always been a limit to spells per round to prevent abuse and droping 3 or more spells a round is a fqr cry from getting extra castings a day for an hour of rest and an hour of prep
Absolutly no one with an ability to read english would suggest that recuperation cannot restore uses of daily abilities such as rage or smite because they are "daily" but some people who for some reason dislike casters or just arn't good enough gm's to deal with caster are lookilling for a way to nerf them because hevon forbid the party buffer gets the same treatment as the beat stick
Wow, you hate punctuation, don't you?
Anyway..
The issue being discussed doesn't really relate to being able to read english or not, it whether this rule is a specific rule that supersedes several general rules throughout the entire Magic chapter of the Core Rulebook.
One other mention of this is the Divine spellcasters
Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, she must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, she must wait until the next day to prepare spells.
What about them? Does Recuperation make the sun rise every hour?
Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, she must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, she must wait until the next day to prepare spells.What about them? Does Recuperation make the sun rise every hour?
Good point!
That thoroughly dispels the idea that 1 hour = 8 hours being the reason arcane caster can re-prepare spells.
This means that mythic recuperation is simply a specific rule that overrides general rules.
It explicitly says you regain spells. Any rule that would prevent this is overwritten.
What about them? Does Recuperation make the sun rise every hour?
Good point!
That thoroughly dispels the idea that 1 hour = 8 hours being the reason arcane caster can re-prepare spells.
This means that mythic recuperation is simply a specific rule that overrides general rules.
It explicitly says you regain spells. Any rule that would prevent this is overwritten.
Interesting interpretation, not one I would go for.
The idea that a poorly written couple of lines supersedes the fundamental theme of praying to the sun at sunrise is not what I'd go for.
The idea that a poorly written couple of lines supersedes the fundamental theme of praying to the sun at sunrise is not what I'd go for.
Poorly written is not what I would call it. The ability is explicitly clear in its wording.
The idea that a poorly written couple of lines supersedes the fundamental theme of praying to the sun at sunrise is not what I'd go for.Poorly written is not what I would call it. The ability is explicitly clear in its wording.
You don't have a view on the rest of my post?
I've been posting from a phone so I'm sure my grammar and spelling have left much to be desired.
But again you are referring to rules for normal regaining spells. Saying Marthkus is only responding to part of your post, why don't you respond to mine completely? Why is the ability worded differently then the ring of sustenance and do all other daily abilities get to renew with out having to wait for a new day?
Are you claiming that mythic heroes don't circumvent normal rules? Are you saying there is no was a god could grant spells more often to some specific clerics, what about the other ways to gain spells back does a magus have to chose from spells cast more then 8 hours ago for spell recall, does a pearl of power only work after 8 hours. As a rule specific rules trump general rules so the ability the specifically says you regain yours spells, witch recuperation calls out, trumps the normal rule for getting spells back normally.
You don't have a view on the rest of my post?The idea that a poorly written couple of lines supersedes the fundamental theme of praying to the sun at sunrise is not what I'd go for.Poorly written is not what I would call it. The ability is explicitly clear in its wording.
I do not.
This is about the most solid argument I've gathered from the whole thread. Everyone's stated some good points, but I feel this one hits the nail on the head.Marthkus, as you seem to be ignoring, it says that one hour counts as eight.
There is no rule in the power saying that allows you to override the general rule.
There IS NO specific here. There just isn't!Revel, it does need to be called out. If this power allows you to break any general rule, it needs to be stated. Clearly.
It clearly states that you can rest for one hour, and regain uses per day as if you had rested for eight hours. It does not state, clearly or not, that it allows you to break the general rule of the 24-hour time limit.
Haven't gotten all the way to the bottom on this thread yet, but I notice that Clerics haven't been brought up. Specifically the fact that if the Recuperation rule doesn't over-ride the General, then Clerics can't get spells back at all from this ability. Regardless of how many spells they have cast in 8 hours.
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, she must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, she must wait until the next day to prepare spells.
So regardless of rest, if it isn't their 1 time of day, they can't memorize/prepare spells. If Recuperation only counts as 8 hours of rest, and doesn't count as "specific over general", divine casters pretty much get the shaft. I don't think the ability is stated as well as it could be, but if it doesn't apply the same to all classes (especially with the "spells per day" listed in the example) it isn't a "Mythic Hero" ability, it is a "Mythic Hero of certain classes" ability.
As a DM, I'm a little torn with which way to go on this ability, but my gut tells me to let it work for all classes evenly, as to allow the party more flexibility in continuing instead of having to rest in dungeon for multiple "days". No one wants to continue on without the Cleric, and if this makes everyone else ready to go (even Arcane casters that haven't cast things in the last 8 hours) except for the Cleric, then they are going to end up "resting" for real anyway.
I don't claim to have any answers, and discussing without being prepared to change ones own viewpoint isn't discussing, it's just shouting.
A point I've wondered about is, if the power is not recharging spells every two hours, what is the point of it at all? What are you supposed to use the remaining 7 hours of the night/rest period? I doubt anyone would dish out mythic power to be able to craft an additional 7 hours in one day
I don't claim to have any answers, and discussing without being prepared to change ones own viewpoint isn't discussing, it's just shouting.
A point I've wondered about is, if the power is not recharging spells every two hours, what is the point of it at all? What are you supposed to use the remaining 7 hours of the night/rest period? I doubt anyone would dish out mythic power to be able to craft an additional 7 hours in one day
QFT.
You regain many, many other things. You can also regain spells three times a day, rather than once.
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You can also regain spells three times a day, rather than once.
Or once per day as divine caster under that interpretation. Meaning that although the ability says you regain spells, as a divine caster you would not regain spells.
I just love how this FAQ is going to be phrased.
"Mythic recuperation says that you regain spells. Do you actually regain spells? That seems OP."
I'm looking for the threads now where people argue vehemently have how fleet warrior doesn't let you move and full attack because the full-attack rules say that you only get a 5ft step when full-attacking.
If you don't want to play mythics, don't play mythics. Don't try to tell everyone else that by RAW mythic abilities don't do what they say they do.
You know perfectly well there is another interpretation that is valid, yet you choose to ignore it in favor of your own point.
That's why we have impartial rules people looking at these things I guess
You know perfectly well there is another interpretation that is valid, yet you choose to ignore it in favor of your own point.
There are other interpretations and I understand the reasoning. That does not make those interpretations sound though.
And in many cases they also fail to be valid.
firstly, i would like to say that i agree with rynjin that this does not overcome the recent casting limit. if you used a spell slot within 8 hours of using rejuvination, you cant get that slot back. period, because it isn't there until 8 hours have past.
that being said, i'm about to throw a wrench in this whole argument (its not a debate anymore. you guys are fighting like a married couple): nowhere in the rules (unless theres an FAQ i missed somewhere) does it say a caster CANT prepare spells more than once in a 24 hour period. it only states "for the coming day" or "daily use". now, let me ask you a question, you ever take a nap at an odd time? or go to bed at like 6am? when you your day begin/end? most people (myself included) argue that the day doesn't end until you go to sleep. which means that it is entirely possible to have a day longer or shorter than 24 hours.
i know Rynjin, you've said you cant do what im about to describe, but bear with me.
if you go to sleep for a full 8 hours, then wake up, its a new day. so if i go to sleep at 12am and wake up at 8am and waist all my spells within an hour (man, now i'm all tuckered out. im gonna go to bed), then sleep for another 8 hours from 9am til 1pm and wake up again, as far as i'm concerned, its a new day until someone tells me the date hasn't changed yet. i can then blow all my spells again in an hour and sleep again from 2pm til 10pm and wake up and blow them again before midnight.
the calender day is utterly irrelevant to how long my day is. as far as my body and mind are concerned, i've had three days in 24 hours. (also, since were adhering to RAW so strictly, show me in the rulebook where it says 1 day=24 hours. we ARE playing a game in a made up world after all. this isn't the planet earth were standing on)
see my point? granted, this is just my interpretation of the RAI in the spells section, but if im right, nothing prevents a caster from casting his full allotment of spells 3 times within a 24 hour period of real time.
my point is that nowhere does it say that a day is strictly 24 hours rather than the time it takes a player to get tired and then rest it off and wake up.
Canthin brings up a good point with the cleric issue. if a cleric can only pray at high noon to his deity, then this ability is entirely useless to them. i would have to argue that because this is a MYTHIC ability, it supersedes all other limitations because it is FREAKING MYTHIC! the whole point is to create majorly overpowered players for way better than epic adventures. its kinda like the how a weapon cant have an enhancement above +5 but an epic weapon can. a player can prepare spells more than so many a day, but a mythic player can. thats the whole point to mythic - being able to do what a normal adventurer cant.
Wow..I honestly didn't expect someone to find actual rules on how long a day is in pathfinder...cudos. still, my point about how long an individuals day is depending on when they go to sleep and wake up is still valid.
As an example, on my first deployment to Iraq I was out on patrol for 7.5 hours (getting ready to head back to the FOB) when we got attacked. The following actions we took looking for the guy/guys who attacked us had us searching every room in every building within 10 city blocks (about 70 multi story buildings) and by the time I got to lay down in my bunk I'd been awake for 39 hours....to me that was just a really long day. I've also done a 24 hour cq shift from 9 to 9 and gone to sleep for 8 hours, woken up seated dinner, watched some TV and gone right back to sleep. The day after the 24 hour shift was very short for me...see my point?
Just to clarify, I'm in agreement that the ability gives you back all your spells after one hour of sleep because I believe that was the intent. But it does need clarification.