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Hello everyone:
Im going to run the 3rd volume of WOTR and my characters are now 3rd tier gaining the power "recuperation"
At 3rd tier, you are restored to full hit points after 8 hours of rest so long as you aren't dead. In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on). This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such abilities. This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of times per day.
I see a little overpowered for a spellcaster to rest one hour and get all your spells back (or am i missing something?)
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Also remember, while it doesn't say it, that doesn't allow spellcasters to regain their full daily spells more than once in a 24 hour period.
It says that one hour counts as eight hours for those abilities.
In the general rules, you cant sleep from 12 am to 7 am, cast every single spell you know, then sleep from 8 am to 4 pm, regain all those spells, and cast them again.
Letting spellcasters sleep one hours multiple times per day is not what this intends.
You can only regain one "use" of spells a day. You prepare them or regain your unused slots.
That's all.
Also remember, while it doesn't say it, that doesn't allow spellcasters to regain their full daily spells more than once in a 24 hour period.Then what kind of "spells per day, and so on" are recovered?
Basically what is allows you to do is take the bad guys out before they realize all their buddies are dead and reorganize. Another thing it does is let you go against the BBEG at full power if you can find out where he is before hand.
I understand this:
You sleep from 12:00 am to 8:00 am, take your spells and cast them all, sleep again 1 hour and take all your speels again, cast them all and sleep again and again and again.
That is what i understand
Then you misunderstand.
Go back and read the magic rules again.
"Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions
If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit."
(For Divine Magic): "Recent Casting Limit
As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared."
(For Spontaneous casters): "Recent Casting Limit
Any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the sorcerer's or bard's daily limit."
This Mythic Power doesn't break that general rule. You can't just "Rest, cast, rest again" like that.
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My reading of this ability agrees with Gabriel. This is a case of a specific rule (mythic power) over ruling a general rule (Recent Casting Limit).
My reading of this ability agrees with Gabriel. This is a case of a specific rule (mythic power) over ruling a general rule (Recent Casting Limit).
That is also how I read it. It was a "blow a mythic point an hour of rest, and start the day over for all of your abilities" power.
Yep, gotta agree that the Specific Rule is gonna override the General Rule.
Remember, Characters will generally only have 9 Mythic Power Points per day at 3rd Tier(excluding using a Mythic Feat to pick up more). Those points are used for a variety of different things in Mythic play. Especially for those Mythic Spellcasters, since it'll cost them a point if they want to cast any mythic version of spells.
Mythic adds power to characters for sure, but it does also add another layer of resource management for players as well.
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But this specific rule at no point says you overcome the recent casting limit. It looks like it works just like a Ring of Sustenance to me (but time is 1 hour instead of 2).
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At 3rd tier, you are restored to full hit points after 8 hours of rest so long as you aren't dead. In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and [regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on). This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such abilities. This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of times per day.
Emphasis Mine
It is my belief that the parts that I highlighted are where it is saying that you overcome recent casting limit since it is resetting all class features that have a particular limit per day. And the fact that they call out spells per day right in their list of examples tells us that it is in fact overcoming that general rule (albiet without calling out the rule itself).
On a side-note as far as I know Mythic play is not PFS, so much if not all of the Mythic rules can be interpreted as RAI more-so than other rules that affect PFS play as well. And as a a current GM of WotR, I will probably be following the interpretation that allows the regaining of spells. Yes this will actually allow some long-term buffs become INCREDIBLY easy to cast and then blow a mythic point to regain that slot BUT with recuperation in mind, Books 3-6 make more sense in regards to the pacing of some of the 'dungeons'.
Yes, you emphasized something that doesn't matter.
Spells are already limited to a certain number of day. They are recovered after resting. This is the normal mechanic.
The Mythic power changes NOTHING about that besides the time taken to recover them. It doesn't say anything about overcoming other limits on the usage of your ability besides the number per day being restored.
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My reading of this ability agrees with Gabriel. This is a case of a specific rule (mythic power) over ruling a general rule (Recent Casting Limit).
There is no quote saying you can bypass the casting limit. It says you can prepare after 1 hour. Bypassing one rule in a section is not permission to pass all the rules in a section of the book.
I am just going to hit the FAQ button. :)
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My reading of this ability agrees with Gabriel. This is a case of a specific rule (mythic power) over ruling a general rule (Recent Casting Limit).There is no quote saying you can bypass the casting limit. It says you can prepare after 1 hour. Bypassing one rule in a section is not permission to pass all the rules in a section of the book.
Honestly I can understand reading it that way.
I've also hit the FAQ button.
I just feel that the purpose of that Mythic power is to basically allow your players rest for an hour, instead of 8 and hit the ground running with all of their power available to them (with the exception of any spent Mythic power). Something like that could truly feel 'mythic' when you imagine the party only being holed up in a room for an hour in the middle of a dangerous dungeon instead of 8.
Because Bardic Performance and Rage do not have a recent use limit that prohibits their recovery in such a manner.
Because Bardic Performance and Rage do not have a recent use limit that prohibits their recovery in such a manner.Bard states "He can use the ability a number of rounds per day"
Just likes spells are listed as "per day" on the class table.
Yes, but Bardic Performance does not have the "Recent Casting Limit" that was put in place expressly to prohibit people from casting, resting for a short period, and then casting all their spells again.
I'm not sure what angle you are trying to attack here. I have posted a specific rule from the rules on magic that prohibits a caster from recovering a spell he has cast within the last 8 hours through rest.
The Mythic ability does not override this rule, even by implication.
You then say "Yeah, but, Bardic Performance is also x rounds a day..." which is entirely irrelevant to the point we are discussing.
At 3rd tier, you are restored to full hit points after 8 hours of rest so long as you aren't dead. In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and [regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on). THIS REST IS TREATED AS 8 HOURS OF SLEEP FOR SUCH ABILITIES. This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of times per day.
I don't know how to bold. So I all-capped it.
But here's the point, normally, eight hours of rest allows you to regain your spells per day ONCE per day. Only once.This mythic power allows you to only sleep one hour, but act as that one hour were eight hours normally.
This does not, in any way, say it lets you rest multiple times per day to regain all of your spells per day.
This "specific trumps general"? There is no specific rule that says spellcasters can have three or four full slots of spells per day, which means we must refer to the general rule. This says that you can only prepare spells once per day, and that's it.
You are incorrect sir. The reason I bring up bardic & Rage is that they are grouped into the category. As per the exact quote in the Mythic Power:
[regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on).
I can see part of your point about the casting limit of the past 8 hours. However, everyone here has focused so exclusively on spells per day. If Analysis Paralysis has you locked up & tunnel visioned on the single aspect of spells; broaden your point of view & analysis to include the types of PC powers mentioned.
Bard preform is limited to X numbers of rounds per day.
Casters are spells per day.
So what I am saying is that you cannot say it for 1 that is listed & not another. It is the case of a new rule over riding an old rule.
Take the first line of the rule for consideration.
At 3rd tier, you are restored to full hit points after 8 hours of rest so long as you aren't dead.
That violates the standard rest rules & natural healing, HP recovery.
So i ask, why can the power not apply to spells per day (besides the same debate about spell recovery from Core rules)?
The confusion here is that bardic performance and rage don't have that general rule about resting once per day.
I believe they should.In any case, I don't plan on having my PCs cast all 4 (or however many) of their highest level spells per day multiple times.
Hitting the FAQ.
Approaching this from the other angle. If this ability does not allow a caster to regain spells then why would it mention that it does?
And I also hit FAQ
Approaching this from the other angle. If this ability does not allow a caster to regain spells then why would it mention that it does?
And I also hit FAQ
I completely agree that it allows spellcasters to reset their spells for the day, in one hour. Which is really useful if you're in a dungeon or a time-critical mission.
What I don't agree with, however, is that it allows you to prepare your full allotment of spells, multiple times per day. There should not be an ability that can do this, at any level.
You are incorrect sir.
It takes more than an assertion to make that true. Show me where the ability overcomes the normal limits placed besides the time taken.
Abilities do what they say they do, and no more.
The reason I bring up bardic & Rage is that they are grouped into the category. As per the exact quote in the Mythic Power:
[regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on).
Which is entirely irrelevant to the discussion on spells. They do not have a Recent Use Limit and so can be recovered as swiftly as you can meet the conditions for recovering them.
I can see part of your point about the casting limit of the past 8 hours. However, everyone here has focused so exclusively on spells per day. If Analysis Paralysis has you locked up & tunnel visioned on the single aspect of spells; broaden your point of view & analysis to include the types of PC powers mentioned.
There is no problem with the other ones, so there's no point in discussing them. This is not "tunnel vision" this is focusing on the only aspect of the ability that people are disagreeing about. The others work just fine, because they do not have a Recent Use clause. If a Barbarian wants to Rage, rest an hour, Rage, rest an hour until he runs out of Mythic Power, he may do so. There is no rules text stopping him.
There is for spells.
Bard preform is limited to X numbers of rounds per day.
Casters are spells per day.
So what I am saying is that you cannot say it for 1 that is listed & not another. It is the case of a new rule over riding an old rule.
It is not. At no point does this ability say "a caster can overcome the Recent Casting limit by use of this ability".
If it does not say it does, then it does not.
You cannot just decide that you like the thought of an ability doing more than it says and then saying "Well it does that", Toughness does not give an extra 6 HP per level "because it doesn't say you can't".
Take the first line of the rule for consideration.
At 3rd tier, you are restored to full hit points after 8 hours of rest so long as you aren't dead.
That violates the standard rest rules & natural healing, HP recovery.
So i ask, why can the power not apply to spells per day (besides the same debate about spell recovery from Core rules)?
It applies to spells per day. You can rest 1 hour instead of 8 (or 2 with a Ring of Sustenance).
You CANNOT violate the Recent Casting Limit by casting all your spells, resting an hour, and then casting all your spells again. You have a hard cap of how many times you can recover in an 8 hour period. That rule was put in place specifically to head off shenannery like this.
My "opinion" is rules text.
My "opinion" may not be as valid as a designer's word to the contrary, but it is certainly more valid than yours because of that fact.
I'm not sure how you can interpret "Nope, can't do that" any other way than how it's read.
It's quite possible that the intent of the ability could have been to overcome that limitation, but that's not what it says. I hit FAQ a while ago, so maybe we'll see.
But currently all we have is what's written, which is a bit of rules text telling you how often you can prepare, and then another bit of rules text that does not change that limit by its wording.
Better to go with what is than what might be.
I mean, I actually agree with Rynjin.
The ability specifically states that the one hour is counted as eight normal hours for those features.
If you rest eight hours normally, you regain spells.
You still can't regain a full complement of spells multipe times per day.
I really don't see, besides disregarding the nonexistent inclusion of a sentence that says something along the lines of "You may prepare spells multiple times per day with this ability.", how this could mean that you can.
You just can't.
Does that make me the "end-all-be-all god of everything" too?
Well the issue is really that reading things behind the text is what causes the imbalances you're worried about in the first place.
Why do that to yourself? If the text works and limits imbalance...go with that. It's only when the text can be read in a way that suggests imbalance that you should be worried.
And yes, you're right that caster who casts half their spells over a 12 hour period can rest and restore the spells cast in the first 4 hours. That's already possible within the rules. It doesn't change anything balance-wise because that's how it already works.
I do see your point on this, and generally believe that most mythic powers need to be reigned in but what is the benefit of this ability for spell casters? What can they get out of that hour rest and reset?
Not needing to sleep a full eight hours. Those hours can be essential when you don't have that time.
Whether it's an invading force that needs your attention, that dungeon you just don't wanna leave but still need to sleep in, or that
super-powerful BBEG that you need to be at full power, NOW, it's just really useful.
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In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on). This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such abilities. This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of times per day.
The text specifically calls out that you can refresh/regain uses of class features that are limited to a number of times per day. So, there is no daily limit of one time per day for spells.
It doesn't say anything about the Recent Casting Limit, so there are two cases here.
If this overrides the Recent Casting Limit, then yes, a spellcaster could cast all of their spells/use all of their spell slots, rest for an hour, and spend a mythic point to be allowed to prepare spells again. I believe this to be too much, but that is my opinion. It -might- be how it works.
If the mythic power does not override the Recent Casting Limit, then any spells/spell slots used in the 8 hours before preparation are not allowed to be prepared again. So, a caster could cast a full allotment of spells, do other things for 7 hours, rest for an hour, spend a mythic point and prepare spells again. This would allow for about a 9 hour minimum cycle, and could easily allow full spell allotments twice a day. This is how I believe it should work, but that is my opinion.
I also agree with your second interpretation, DesolateHarmony.
I disagree that it would be that useful for casters. If it does not refresh spells then you don't need to be ready in an hour as you haven't cast them. Nor does this actually remove the need for sleep and rest as it doesn't get rid of the (potential) penalties for not resting. It is odd how it would restore other classes most powerful and game balance-wise equally powerful abilities while not effecting casters.
And I am just the GM trying to have an argument for a player's complaining when I tell him this as he already feels slighted by all the extra mythic powers that don't apply to casters.
What we're saying is it DOES reset spells for the day.
We're saying it DOESN'T allow you to reset spells per day multiple times in one day.
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I disagree that it would be that useful for casters. If it does not refresh spells then you don't need to be ready in an hour as you haven't cast them. Nor does this actually remove the need for sleep and rest as it doesn't get rid of the (potential) penalties for not resting. It is odd how it would restore other classes most powerful and game balance-wise equally powerful abilities while not effecting casters.
And I am just the GM trying to have an argument for a player's complaining when I tell him this as he already feels slighted by all the extra mythic powers that don't apply to casters.
I did mention about having cast all your spells.
It does count a 8 hours of sleep for the purpose of regaining spells.
It might -not- prevent the fatigued condition for less than 8 hours of sleep. I'll have to read again.
My fault then. I thought that you were on the side that thought it would not allow you to memorize your spells again.
It's all good.
Wouldn't the minimum cycle time on the spells used/rest/regain cycle be closer to (with 2 tiers and 1 use of mythic power) 8 h. 15 minutes for prepared casters, or 8 hours flat for spontaneous? Prepare your spells in the morning, cast them all, wait 7 hours, rest for 1 hour and use a mythic point at the end, then use Rapid Preperation's passive effect to prepare the spells over 15 minutes?
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I live for these sorts of conundrums. FAQ'd.