A mythic character for all their power is not a god yet with divine source they can grant their worshipers divine spells. So lets say a mythic person saved some small village up in the mountains somwhere and after a decade or so someone becomes a priest worshiping them. This person never met them, only knows about them through tales and teachings from the previous priest who began worshiping them and found they got spells to help their villagers (more miracles from the great Umpa Lumpas).
Now after 60 years of devout service tending to their people this priest dies where does he go?
1) Picked up by another god who's been gathering Umpa Lumpas worshipers just because.
2) Goes to a generic good/evil fate depending on their teachings (my personal preference).
3) Gets tossed on the scrapheap of lost souls as there's no god to claim them, along with all the OTHER villagers who worshiped this character.
4) Gets sent back to the mortal room for another go round to pick a better god.
5) Something else entirely?
What are peoples thoughts on this?
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All this is just IMNO of course:
Souls are valuable; they are in fact literal currency in the lower planes. I can't imagine throwing them on the scrapheap any more than I can imagine throwing benjamins on the scrapheap. So I'd say #3 and #4 are out.
I also think that just because someone claims to worship a god doesn't mean that that god would get their soul. It's easy enough for me to SAY I worship Saranrae and then go complete the Way of the Wicked.
So I'd say that the same thing happens to worshipers of Umpa Lumpa as to worshipers of Saranrae. When the soul gets to the boneyard, Pharasma makes the appropriate call and sends it to an appropriate place.
It becomes a more interesting question if the mythic character in question has access to a personal demiplane. If so I could see their soul being sent to that mythic characters demiplane. (however this would cause some friction i could imagine in the cosmos especially if the mythic character has enough of a following due to suddenly a new player on the cosmic block)
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They go to the mythic characters god (through a bunch of mythic angels/deamons).
Its a pyramid scheme! Mythics think their important but their WAY below gods and there are hundreds of mythic planar creatures above them.
Except a Mythic character doesn't necessarily need to worship a god. For a cleric or a devout being sure but for a fighter/wizard/other class that doesn't actually have to rely on a god for their powers they could be aware gods exist but worship none of them, follow a personal belief system, have a code of ethics. A monk for example could be everything from a member of a religious order who practices the martial arts to one who focuses on their own personal self improvement. It gets even worse if you have a delusional character who went from worshiping a god to worshiping themselves and grant their own divine spells.
Having souls go to the mythic characters demiplane could cause problems too given how difficult those are to create you'd only need a few generations of followers before it'd be stuffed to the gills with beings, although I could see that happening. My character has a sanctum (mage path) which only gives me enough room for a manor (accomodation for 10 people + them) and a few hundred feet of space outside it. Even if she expanded it with create demi-plane greater your looking at hundreds of castings to barely double the room.
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All souls that die go to Pharasma to be judged. She sends them to the deity that most closely models the ideals the mortal lived by. A Mythic character who grants spells isn't such a creature, he's more of a middleman.
LazarX wrote: All souls that die go to Pharasma to be judged. She sends them to the deity that most closely models the ideals the mortal lived by. A Mythic character who grants spells isn't such a creature, he's more of a middleman. Ah I thought she sent them to the god they worshiped if its just to where they best fit then there's no problem. They worship a mythic character, die and then to go to a suitable afterlife. I can work with that.
I think that in this case, worshipping a mythic being is kind've a loophole, similar to how a fiend can end up with its summoner's soul upon the expected betrayal, but the nice version. I'd say that the mythic being gets to make a claim on the soul of someone who worships him, and if the worshipper is actually devout, I think Pharasma would honor it. Even if the mythic being himself worships a deity, and himself ends up in Sarenrae's backyard upon death, the dude that worships HIM can say, "I'm bunking with him."
I never really considered this issue before. I certainly never wondered what would happen to a dude's soul if the mythic he worshipped owned his own demiplane. Food for thought.
Then you start getting into the concept of how many followers you have to acquire to make the jump from Mythic character to demi-god, and how powerful a demi-god has to be to attain their own sliver of a planar realm, ect. . .
Does pathfinder have that kind of Deities & Demigods type information out there?
You become the most basic sort of demigod when you take the Divine Source path ability. A sort of nascent demigod. When you acquire enough narrativium to build plot armor, you can go up the ladder to normal demigod status, then you have to acquire the unobtanium and upsidasium to make it to true god status.
Or make a play for the starstone. I do know there's a story feat somewhere which is basically "You've been marked for future divinity" too.
Also I'm now picturing the poor mythic being wincing at Pharasma's raised eyebrow when after a couple of centuries they die/get killed and find out there's a couple of thousand people "bunking" with them "I don't know these people honest!"
LazarX wrote: All souls that die go to Pharasma to be judged. She sends them to the deity that most closely models the ideals the mortal lived by. A Mythic character who grants spells isn't such a creature, he's more of a middleman. Not everyone uses that cosmology.
A mythic character who dies still has an amazing legend and stories that don't die just because he or she did.
And that is pretty much how saints get created. Nothing new there that invalidates the other ideas presented above.
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I imagine someone worshipping a mythic character with Divine Source would probably go to the plane most in line with their alignment and beliefs, perhaps with a leaning towards specific destinations depending on the mythic character in question.
And now I have a mental image of a mythic character during downtime, going about his day, and being approached by a psychopomp asking for suggestions for this.
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That might make for a nice RP encounter. Annoyed psychopomp shows up "This is what you get for meddling with matters of souls, Mister Mythic Barbarian. You tell us how to fix this"
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MythicFox wrote: I imagine someone worshipping a mythic character with Divine Source would probably go to the plane most in line with their alignment and beliefs, perhaps with a leaning towards specific destinations depending on the mythic character in question.
And now I have a mental image of a mythic character during downtime, going about his day, and being approached by a psychopomp asking for suggestions for this.
One of my silly little character ideas is a wizard with leadership applying cohort to its familiar. Picture a friendly labrodor with levels in cleric evangelist running around trying to convert people to worshiping the thrower of sticks while the wizard tries to get them to stop.
Just because a character doesn't worship a god doesn't mean their behavior and attitude doesn't provide devotional energy to a greater force.
With active worship you get something and have some self awareness. With passive worship some neutral evil demon thing gets your soul and you become a larvae to feed the lower planes.
LazarX wrote: All souls that die go to Pharasma to be judged. She sends them to the deity that most closely models the ideals the mortal lived by. A Mythic character who grants spells isn't such a creature, he's more of a middleman. The daemons say this isn't exactly true. Their mortal souls coming from essentially godless psychopaths they were sent to no deity but some corner of the multiverse for them to fester and become what they now are. It's completely possible souls that worshipped the demigod would either be put in a type of pocket plane or some other area if they were not made part of the demigod themselves. It would similarly be completely reasonable that upon becoming worshipped Pharasma would have a concordance with the new demigod to work out these details.
Wycen wrote: LazarX wrote: All souls that die go to Pharasma to be judged. She sends them to the deity that most closely models the ideals the mortal lived by. A Mythic character who grants spells isn't such a creature, he's more of a middleman. Not everyone uses that cosmology.
A mythic character who dies still has an amazing legend and stories that don't die just because he or she did. We can only answer general questions using the default cosmology. When you're using a different one, ALL assumptions go out the window. In that case it's "Whatever the GM decides, if he's even thought that far."
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote: You become the most basic sort of demigod when you take the Divine Source path ability. A sort of nascent demigod. When you acquire enough narrativium to build plot armor, you can go up the ladder to normal demigod status, then you have to acquire the unobtanium and upsidasium to make it to true god status. No, you're not even a demi-god when you take that ability. The terms that have been bandied about, are more on the order of Saint, or Quasi-Diety.
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LazarX wrote: Paladin of Baha-who? wrote: You become the most basic sort of demigod when you take the Divine Source path ability. A sort of nascent demigod. When you acquire enough narrativium to build plot armor, you can go up the ladder to normal demigod status, then you have to acquire the unobtanium and upsidasium to make it to true god status. No, you're not even a demi-god when you take that ability. The terms that have been bandied about, are more on the order of Saint, or Quasi-Diety. Depends what you mean by Demi-God if your going old school I believe most of the ancient greek heroes were one due to a half divine heritage and that is an option in certain circumstances. Which does imply that most of those granting divine spells arne't e.g. Baba Yaga although in her case she refuses to grant them because she hates being bothered.
Liam Warner wrote: LazarX wrote: Paladin of Baha-who? wrote: You become the most basic sort of demigod when you take the Divine Source path ability. A sort of nascent demigod. When you acquire enough narrativium to build plot armor, you can go up the ladder to normal demigod status, then you have to acquire the unobtanium and upsidasium to make it to true god status. No, you're not even a demi-god when you take that ability. The terms that have been bandied about, are more on the order of Saint, or Quasi-Diety. Depends what you mean by Demi-God if your going old school I believe most of the ancient greek heroes were one due to a half divine heritage and that is an option in certain circumstances. Which does imply that most of those granting divine spells arne't e.g. Baba Yaga although in her case she refuses to grant them because she hates being bothered. A Demi-God is a divine being that grants 9 levels of cleric spells and X amount of domains. At least that's how it's defined by the dev folks here such as Mr. Jacobs on a related query. A Demi-God is a full fledged diety, not a souped up mythic mortal.
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Demigods are CR 26-30. Level 20 plus mythic 10 being CR 25, all you'd need is a template or a ton of magical gear. In the case of Baba Yaga, her gear and a couple other effects bump her CR by a few so it's completely possible for a mortal to do. I don't understand the reluctance to letting PCs be full fledged demigods with all the privileges and responsibilities that includes.
Buri wrote: Demigods are CR 26-30. Level 20 plus mythic 10 being CR 25, all you'd need is a template or a ton of magical gear. In the case of Baba Yaga, her gear and a couple other effects bump her CR by a few so it's completely possible for a mortal to do. I don't understand the reluctance to letting PCs be full fledged demigods with all the privileges and responsibilities that includes. Because when you are an actual god, it's goodbye sayonora, welcome to NPC land. As long as you have stats and are killable, you're simply not diety material.
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LazarX wrote: Buri wrote: Demigods are CR 26-30. Level 20 plus mythic 10 being CR 25, all you'd need is a template or a ton of magical gear. In the case of Baba Yaga, her gear and a couple other effects bump her CR by a few so it's completely possible for a mortal to do. I don't understand the reluctance to letting PCs be full fledged demigods with all the privileges and responsibilities that includes. Because when you are an actual god, it's goodbye sayonora, welcome to NPC land. As long as you have stats and are killable, you're simply not diety material. But what about paying a god killer game where you play as demi gods taking on the established pantheon to carve out your own kingdoms in the outer planes? those kinds of games happen from time to time.
LazarX wrote: Because when you are an actual god, it's goodbye sayonora, welcome to NPC land. As long as you have stats and are killable, you're simply not diety material. Except we now have dozens of creatures that are demigods and have stats.
Hadn't thought about this before. Simplest and easiest would just have them be judged like other souls.
On the other hand, it might be interesting to have the player pull a modified Karsa Orlong from the Malazan books and have the ghosts of the worshippers follow him/her around until (if) he/she dies. Might be a good excuse for some Psychopomp vs. PC action, and be a way for the character to have "good" undead.
Buri wrote: LazarX wrote: Because when you are an actual god, it's goodbye sayonora, welcome to NPC land. As long as you have stats and are killable, you're simply not diety material. Except we now have dozens of creatures that are demigods and have stats. If you take a second look, you'll probably find that they're actually something else.
LazarX wrote:
A Demi-God is a divine being that grants 9 levels of cleric spells and X amount of domains. At least that's how it's defined by the dev folks here such as Mr. Jacobs on a related query. A Demi-God is a full fledged diety, not a souped up mythic mortal.
Technically at Mythic 9, you grant 9th level spells and grant domains.
LazarX wrote: Buri wrote: LazarX wrote: Because when you are an actual god, it's goodbye sayonora, welcome to NPC land. As long as you have stats and are killable, you're simply not diety material. Except we now have dozens of creatures that are demigods and have stats. If you take a second look, you'll probably find that they're actually something else. I believe empyreal lords, demon lords and Great Old Ones are basically subcategories of demigod.
It's full deities that are beyond stats in Pathfinder.
Havent checked the sources but this seems to indicate demon lords etc are demigods:
http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Demigod
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I'd say that one of two things may be true:
1) The PC is a follower of a deity. When going mythic, she becomes a saint under that deity. Therefore, her worshipers go in that deity's realm.
2) The PC doesn't follow any deity in particular. A tiny realm of her own appears on the plane of her alignment, without her knowing. Her worshipers go there- and she's due for a bit of a surprise next time she dies or plane shifts.
Orfamay Quest wrote: I can't imagine throwing them on the scrapheap any more than I can imagine throwing benjamins on the scrapheap. Well, back in 3.0/3.5 Forgotten Realms the souls of faithless were absorbed into a wall, IIRC. That's basically throwing them away. Dunno if that changed in 4th.
Araxiss wrote: Orfamay Quest wrote: I can't imagine throwing them on the scrapheap any more than I can imagine throwing benjamins on the scrapheap. Well, back in 3.0/3.5 Forgotten Realms the souls of faithless were absorbed into a wall, IIRC. That's basically throwing them away. Dunno if that changed in 4th. Different system and they aren't faithless they grew up in a place worshiping this being, they were genuinely devoted and faithful according to their beliefs (and the being in question never even knew about them), their priests even got divine spells for their faith.
Voting "goes to the mystic characters divine patron(if any)" or appropriate plane otherwise. Unless that mythic character gets a realm upon apotheosis and/or death, in which case those faithful would feel a spiritual tug towards their new home. Heck, some of those souls might actually be working to build that realm in the lead-up to that apotheosis.
Y'know, this raises the possibility of a living mythic character summoning outsiders who were once mortal worshippers...
Araxiss wrote: Orfamay Quest wrote: I can't imagine throwing them on the scrapheap any more than I can imagine throwing benjamins on the scrapheap. Well, back in 3.0/3.5 Forgotten Realms the souls of faithless were absorbed into a wall, IIRC. That's basically throwing them away. Dunno if that changed in 4th. It bears noting that that particular element of the setting was widely despised by a wide spectrum of folks. Really glad Golarion didn't go down that road.
Mikaze wrote: Voting "goes to the mystic characters divine patron(if any)" or appropriate plane otherwise. Unless that mythic character gets a realm upon apotheosis and/or death, in which case those faithful would feel a spiritual tug towards their new home. Heck, some of those souls might actually be working to build that realm in the lead-up to that apotheosis.
Y'know, this raises the possibility of a living mythic character summoning outsiders who were once mortal worshippers...
Araxiss wrote: Orfamay Quest wrote: I can't imagine throwing them on the scrapheap any more than I can imagine throwing benjamins on the scrapheap. Well, back in 3.0/3.5 Forgotten Realms the souls of faithless were absorbed into a wall, IIRC. That's basically throwing them away. Dunno if that changed in 4th. It bears noting that that particular element of the setting was widely despised by a wide spectrum of folks. Really glad Golarion didn't go down that road.
Hmmm considering the character that brought this up actually beleives in a reincarnation philosophy as in you die and are returned to earth in a different form to continue your spiritual evolution finding out worshipers believe she's a god and are going to an afterlife they pretty much made up based on a brief rescuing of their kobold tribe and providing them a magical food source so they didn't starve summoning say a Solar and finding out its the descendant of one of those kobolds could really throw her.
Mikaze wrote:
Y'know, this raises the possibility of a living mythic character summoning outsiders who were once mortal worshippers...
I'm not sure what he'd do with petitioners that recall nothing of their mortal lives.
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I was thinking about this and remembered accidental goddess where a being of a race with magical powers helps stop an invasion of another culture, winds up getting ambushed and as a result of freak events gets hurled several centuries into the future where she finds they've made her the god of their main relgion and she's sneaking around trying to avoid being discovered because of the impact it would have on their culture.
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