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Chill Touch:
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds + 1 round per caster level.
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
(emphasis mine)
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
(problem here is that this text is assuming the touch spell in question only allows a single touch before expended, not multiple touches...)
so the question here is this: if a (lets say 5th level) magus casts chill touch using spell combat and spell strike does that mean that in this particular round he gets to make 5 free attacks because the spell allows this many? Or could it possibly mean that you could be granted a free touch attack every round (since you only get one) but have multiple attacks and it still counts as "as part of casting the spell". the second theory would make more logical sense obviously because its not so OP, but it seems plausible that the first could be correct unless there is a ruling or rule i am missing here.
i've used this build before and have always assumed its 1 free touch attack and the rest are just normal held charges, but now i'm curious if there is an FAQ or something that actually states as much because judging by this i'd have to say that the spell gives you multiple free touch attacks...
i'm not trying to break this spell any more than it already is, trust me, but i would like to know if how we've all been playing it is actually correct, or if we've all just made an assumption and were wrong...
One free attack when you cast the Spell. The other charges of the Spell used his normal attacks in that round or the next rounds.
It is like a normal touch Spell with several charges just with the weapon.
see but where is the ruling for that? we've all been using the spell that way, but this bit of text is unclear "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." about only getting one free touch attack.. it just says you get X attacks per level. so RAW means at 20th level you get 20 atks for 1 cast and nothing states that you CANT take them all at once...
i'm looking for the rule/FAQ that prohibits this. if there isn't one, we need to make one, because that is broken and needs fixing.
someone please tell me theres a rule somewhere that makes this impossible. nothing in touch spells expressly limits the free touch to 1. so where could it be?
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You get one "free" chance to touch (or in the Magus' case, Spellstrike) your target when you cast the spell.
If the Magus is using Spellstrike, he delivers any subsequent # of touches through his weapon, as his attacks allow.
If he somehow has 5 attacks available, then sure, he could use all of them to deliver a dose of Chill Touch.
But if he only has 2 attacks available, then he'll have to continue to hold the charge.
Any interpretation beyond that is your own construction, and requires no FAQ.
see but where is the ruling for that? we've all been using the spell that way, but this bit of text is unclear "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." about only getting one free touch attack.. it just says you get X attacks per level. so RAW means at 20th level you get 20 atks for 1 cast and nothing states that you CANT take them all at once...
i'm looking for the rule/FAQ that prohibits this. if there isn't one, we need to make one, because that is broken and needs fixing.
someone please tell me theres a rule somewhere that makes this impossible. nothing in touch spells expressly limits the free touch to 1. so where could it be?
we dont need a ruleing it is in the normal books.
we dont need a ruleing it is in the normal books.see but where is the ruling for that? we've all been using the spell that way, but this bit of text is unclear "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." about only getting one free touch attack.. it just says you get X attacks per level. so RAW means at 20th level you get 20 atks for 1 cast and nothing states that you CANT take them all at once...
i'm looking for the rule/FAQ that prohibits this. if there isn't one, we need to make one, because that is broken and needs fixing.
someone please tell me theres a rule somewhere that makes this impossible. nothing in touch spells expressly limits the free touch to 1. so where could it be?
but where? nowhere i can find except in the spellstrike discription does it limit the free touch attacks to one other than in the discription of every touch spell where is says "a free melee touch attack", but this spells does not have that "a" on its discription.
so where is the text in the CRB or other book that expressly says "1 free melee touch attack"? cause thats what i am NOT finding...
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Oh. You mean the section just two paragraphs before the section you quoted?
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Oh. You mean the section just two paragraphs before the section you quoted?
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
yes, but again, it doesnt limit the free action to 1 (that number being the key here) touch attack. if the spell such as chill touch allows multiple touch attacks then according to RAW you get them all as a free action....hense why i'm posting about this...
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No, it's not according to RAW. Show me where you read that.
In Pathfinder, rules only exist if they are written (that's what Rules As Written means). To come up with any other interpretation is your own construction.
(And, as an aside, Chill Touch is as old as Pathfinder itself [technically older], which has been out for years. If this was a real issue, it would have been pointed out and fixed years ago, during one of the five updates to the Core Rule Book. You're not suddenly "realizing" some giant flaw in game design with this post, you're just misinterpreting how touch spells work)
No, it's not according to RAW. Show me where you read that.
In Pathfinder, rules only exist if they are written (that's what Rules As Written means). To come up with any other interpretation is your own construction.
(And, as an aside, Chill Touch is as old as Pathfinder itself [technically older], which has been out for years. If this was a real issue, it would have been pointed out and fixed years ago, during one of the five updates to the Core Rule Book. You're not suddenly "realizing" some giant flaw in game design with this post, you're just misinterpreting how touch spells work)
As Written states the following:
In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
so where is my specific interpretation here? this allows multiple free touch attacks in a round unless somewhere else it is written otherwise...
I don't really see the issue here, we seem agree on how it's meant to work so why bother with an argument. The rules are clear enough we all understand what's supposed to happen...
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And we're telling you you're interpreting it wrong. Would a dictionary be helpful?
"In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
This would be a singular reference. Definition of "singular".
"You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
This would be a plural reference. Definition of "plural".
Notice how the two are not alike?
"you may also touch as a free action" give you a free action for a touch attack. agreed?
fact: you can take multiple free actions in a round
"you can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level" give you multiple melee touch attacks....
by every rules stated you could have multiple free actions in a single round. the only exception to this would be a magus spellstrikeing with this spell because it explicitly allows only 1 free attack. a wizard using a normal touch attack however is not restricted and thus would be granted (his level)# of free action touch attacks within the round he casts the spell
I don't really see the issue here, we seem agree on how it's meant to work so why bother with an argument. The rules are clear enough we all understand what's supposed to happen...
just because we all agree on how it's "supposed" to work, doesnt mean that acording to how its written it actually works that way. this is my point. if i were GMing and a playing used my current argument for this on me, what do i have to fall back on other than "ohh come on, you know it isnt supposed to work like that"...there needs to be hard evidence to argue a retort or else the player feels cheated because i pulled a houserule/gm fiat on something he wanted to do. its not about the fact that i know what SHOULD be fair and what IS overpowered. its about the rules not being clear enough to stop this being abused.
Ok, I see what's happening here. You all know how the spell works and how attack limits per round work and how the two synergize. That's the OP's problem, he's missed that part. I'll take a crack at explaining.
The spell allows you to "use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." This is true, but you are still limited by the amount of attacks that you are allowed to take in a round. Any other attacks are held until following rounds. If you have three attacks per round, you can make three touch attacks using this spell, with any left over attacks being held until the next round, where you can attack three times again, provided you are in a position to full attack and you still have enough charges left in the casting to attack three times.
There is no specific rule dealing with this because what you're looking for is a blend of several rules guiding combat and spellcasting in general, which is why you can't find anything your search.
Does that help?
Not trying to break the spell, eh?
EDIT: Again we have someone arguing a point over a simple phrase/word which if you dropped all common sense might possibly mean something else. Really...a company produces a rather nifty set of rules to play a fantastic game and all you can do is nit-pick saying it isn't clear to a cheese monkey rules lawyer?
Ok, I see what's happening here. You all know how the spell works and how attack limits per round work and how the two synergize. That's the OP's problem, he's missed that part. I'll take a crack at explaining.
The spell allows you to "use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." This is true, but you are still limited by the amount of attacks that you are allowed to take in a round. Any other attacks are held until following rounds. If you have three attacks per round, you can make three touch attacks using this spell, with any left over attacks being held until the next round, where you can attack three times again, provided you are in a position to full attack and you still have enough charges left in the casting to attack three times.
There is no specific rule dealing with this because what you're looking for is a blend of several rules guiding combat and spellcasting in general, which is why you can't find anything your search.
Does that help?
no, because the touch attack granted by a touch spell is FREE ACTION and does not take up any of your normal attacks in a round. casting the spell normally takes up all of your attacks in a round because you cant make a full attack AND cast a spell unless you are a magus using spell combat.
the issue is that this spell seemingly provides mutiple free actions...
ok, lets say Chill touch was worded like so:
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. This spell does not disipate until you have sucessfully touched a subject(s) a total number of times equal to your caster level.
then where would be no question as to how this would work in reguards to holding the charge and the free touch attack for a touch spell.
however, as currently written:
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
this allows MULTIPLE touch attacks. And since is does, the rules on touch attacks for spells make these free actions. the rules do not limit free actions in a round, making (aside from GM fiat/houserules) it possible to have you caster level # of free touch attacks in a round.
You are confusing "free action attack" with "free attack". The two are not the same. You do not get a free action attack(which I agree would be horribly broken), you get a free attack, meaning you get to cast the spell and make one attack along with casting it.
You are confusing "free action attack" with "free attack". The two are not the same. You do not get a free action attack(which I agree would be horribly broken), you get a free attack, meaning you get to cast the spell and make one attack along with casting it.
you are incorrect. the rules do not give you a free attack. they give yo a free action to deliver a touch attack. this would be a free action attack.
it does when the only argument against was im saying is "because thats too OP to make sense"... thats not how the game works. just because we know better than to abuse the rules, because we want to have fun, doesn't mean someone who likes to stretch every rule he can without breaking it, isnt going to try. if a GM wants to say no to a player he needs something to back him up. thats what the rules are for. in this case the rules favor the player and thus makes this spell broken as all hell.
if you are going to argue against what i'm saying then please use rules to prove your point. if you cant, then its apparent that the rules are on my side. this is exactly why i believe it needs an errata.
EDIT: its not that im NOT listening to you explain it. its that all im hearing from you is RAI instead of RAW. the interpretation is clear. you are only supposed to get 1 free touch attack when casting a touch spell. but, the Wording as written in the rules allows for more than one because when a spell or ability says something against what the rules normally dictate, you go with the spell/ability. typically these kinds of things are explicitly written into spells/abilities as exceptions to the rules. in this case they are not and i believe that it needs to be.
even if was as simple as this:
"In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a single free action.
I suggest you make a FAQ then and see if it is ignored;)
Here, if you really want an official ruling.
Yes. For example, if you cast chill touch (which allows multiple touch attacks), you could use spellstrike to cast and deliver the spell through your weapon, and in later weapon attacks you could use your weapon to deliver the remaining spell touch attacks (one spell touch attack per weapon attack).If you have multiple attacks per round with that weapon (such as from having a BAB of +6 or higher), you can use the weapon to deliver multiple spell touch attacks per round, so long as you have uses of that spell touch attack remaining.
For example, if you are an 8th-level magus (BAB +6/+1) and you cast chill touch, you have up to 8 uses of that spell touch attack. If you make two weapon attacks in a round, you can deliver two spell touch attacks per round (one for each successful weapon attack).
This is using the very spell that you mention. It clearly indicates that you can deliver the extra charges, but not for free - you deliver them using your iterative attacks from BAB or from TWF (if you're not using Spell Combat).
If what you were claiming were true then the FAQ would - since it's using the spell you're using for an example - state that you could deliver your regular attacks plus a free touch attack each round.
if a GM wants to say no to a player he needs something to back him up.
No he doesn't. Rule 0. If I want to run a game where the only playable race is human, even though the books include fifty times that many playable races, guess what races are available at my table? One - human.
Is it polite for a GM to point out rules that back up his rulings? Yes. Would I ever consider it rude for a GM to say, "No, you don't get 14 free attacks from casting a 1st level spell, because that's utterly and completely broken beyond belief,"? No. Why? The designers have stated time and again that the rules are meant to be read using common sense; what you're proposing abandons common sense completely and that alone should be enough for anyone competent in the system to say, "Maybe that's not how it's supposed to work..."
Looks like I need to be the guy to point this out: You bolded the answer to your question. Let's enhance it a bit more so it's more obvious:
Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.
This bolded part shows that when you cast a spell, you are normally allowed one free melee touch attack upon casting the spell. One. Not Five. Not Twelve. One It refers to a free melee touch attack, which, for English purposes, is a singular noun. If it was meant for multiple attacks, a plural noun, including more than one, the word "the" would be removed, and an 's' would be applied at the end of "attack".
Let's look at Chill Touch's Description:
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw.You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds + 1 round per caster level.
There is no language in Chill Touch that supersedes the general rule of One Free Touch per Casting. I have no idea where you are getting that a Free Action Touch Attack as part of casting a spell (which only occurs once, at best twice with Quicken Spells) means you can make Touch Attacks as Free Actions. You only cast one, maybe 2 Touch spells, which means you can only make one, maybe 2 Touch Attacks as Free Actions.
The Bolded Part shows what happens on a successful Touch Attack (1d6 Negative Energy and 1 Strength Damage/Panicked Condition). The Italicized part tells us that this occurs for that many touch attacks. In such a case, it is cited in attempts to show that for each caster level you possess, Chill Touch's effects can apply to that many touch attacks you make, and lasts until all of the attacks you succeed at are expended, or the duration expires, whichever comes first.
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They do not need a FAQ for this...what they need is a flag option to lock the thread or something similar
When you cast the spell you get A free action touch attack to deliver it...JUST ONE
Any further touch attacks must be done as normal actions
There is no one on earth actually confused about this...even you said yourself that we all know how its suppose to work
Threads like this waste time when people FAQ it
Also please read the sticky on page one...it tells you that IF you do wish to FAQ something that it needs to be a well worded question...not a jumble of if this and if thats
Here, if you really want an official ruling.
Yes. For example, if you cast chill touch (which allows multiple touch attacks), you could use spellstrike to cast and deliver the spell through your weapon, and in later weapon attacks you could use your weapon to deliver the remaining spell touch attacks (one spell touch attack per weapon attack).If you have multiple attacks per round with that weapon (such as from having a BAB of +6 or higher), you can use the weapon to deliver multiple spell touch attacks per round, so long as you have uses of that spell touch attack remaining.
For example, if you are an 8th-level magus (BAB +6/+1) and you cast chill touch, you have up to 8 uses of that spell touch attack. If you make two weapon attacks in a round, you can deliver two spell touch attacks per round (one for each successful weapon attack).
This is using the very spell that you mention. It clearly indicates that you can deliver the extra charges, but not for free - you deliver them using your iterative attacks from BAB or from TWF (if you're not using Spell Combat).
If what you were claiming were true then the FAQ would - since it's using the spell you're using for an example - state that you could deliver your regular attacks plus a free touch attack each round.
if a GM wants to say no to a player he needs something to back him up.No he doesn't. Rule 0. If I want to run a game where the only playable race is human, even though the books include fifty times that many playable races, guess what races are available at my table? One - human.
Is it polite for a GM to point out rules that back up his rulings? Yes. Would I ever consider it rude for a GM to say, "No, you don't get 14 free attacks from casting a 1st level spell, because that's utterly...
the magus ruling your quoting is valid because of the wording of the Spellstrike ability as it explicitly only allows for a single free attack. however, not using spellstrike would allow for multiple free touch attacks because there is no relevant limit in the rules that limits the number of free touch attacks allowed by this spell that we can find. by this logic the only characters who have a limit when using Chill Touch are magus' using spellstrike.
and again, the only thing im seeing in your argument for the second half is "because i said so" which makes for bad GMing IMO.
They do not need a FAQ for this...what they need is a flag option to lock the thread or something similar
When you cast the spell you get A free action touch attack to deliver it...JUST ONE
Any further touch attacks must be done as normal actions
There is no one on earth actually confused about this...even you said yourself that we all know how its suppose to work
Threads like this waste time when people FAQ it
Also please read the sticky on page one...it tells you that IF you do wish to FAQ something that it needs to be a well worded question...not a jumble of if this and if thats
again, show me where "When you cast the spell you get A free action touch attack to deliver it." is written....
the magus ruling your quoting is valid because of the wording of the Spellstrike ability as it explicitly only allows for a single free attack. however, not using spellstrike would allow for multiple free touch attacks because there is no relevant limit in the rules that limits the number of free touch attacks allowed by this spell that we can find. by this logic the only characters who have a limit when using Chill Touch are magus' using spellstrike.
and again, the only thing im seeing in your argument for the second half is "because i said so" which makes for bad GMing IMO.
As others pointed out earlier, the ruling for touch spells state that you get a free touch attack in the turn when you cast the spell. The spell does not state that you get "one free touch attack per level"; it says that you get "one touch attack per level". There's a specific grammatical difference there - the inclusion of the word "free" - that you have to ignore for your interpretation to work.
If you really are attempting to argue that a 1st level spell should grant you the ability to deliver up to 20 free touch attacks to enemies, then you are ignoring the designers' statement of interpreting the rules through common sense. Feel free to call it bad GMing; I call what you're doing ignoring common sense.
Looks like I need to be the guy to point this out: You bolded the answer to your question. Let's enhance it a bit more so it's more obvious:
Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.This bolded part shows that when you cast a spell, you are normally allowed one free melee touch attack upon casting the spell. One. Not Five. Not Twelve. One It refers to a free melee touch attack, which, for English purposes, is a singular noun. If it was meant for multiple attacks, a plural noun, including more than one, the word "the" would be removed, and an 's' would be applied at the end of "attack".
Let's look at Chill Touch's Description:
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw.You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds + 1 round per caster level.
There is no language in Chill Touch that supersedes the general rule of One Free Touch per Casting. I have no idea where you are getting that a Free Action Touch Attack as part of casting a spell (which only occurs once, at best twice with Quicken Spells) means you can make Touch Attacks as Free Actions. You only cast one, maybe 2 Touch spells, which means you can only make one, maybe 2 Touch Attacks as Free Actions.
The Bolded Part shows what happens on a successful Touch Attack (1d6 Negative Energy and 1 Strength Damage/Panicked Condition). The Italicized part tells us that this occurs for that many touch attacks. In such a...
i have already agreed with the spellstrike issue. you are beating a dead horse there.
however where is this "general rule of One Free Touch per Casting" you are talking about?
heres the core rulebook:
"In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
nowhere in there does it say "One" and since you italisized it, you know this part of Chill Touch as well:
"You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level"
so where does it say that my other touch attacks CANT be made as additional free actions that round?
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Again we have someone arguing a point over a simple phrase/word which if you dropped all common sense might possibly mean something else. Really...a company produces a rather nifty set of rules to play a fantastic game and all you can do is nit-pick saying it isn't clear to a cheese monkey rules lawyer?
Just in case it got missed first time around....
If you noticed the Spellstrike clause, that's where I spell it out. It says "Instead of X, a Magus can Y.
X = the [one] free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the [touch] spell.
In the English language, when I refer to the table, or the chairs, what accompanies the word "the" is a noun which is sometimes coupled with adjectives/adverbs. In this case, X is accompanied with adjectives/adverbs.
Since "free melee touch attack" refers to "attack," a singular 'noun,' being "free," and "melee," for adjectives, and "touch" as an adverb, this means that even as a combined subject, it is still a singular entity, through and through.
Keep in mind that instead of the general rule X (which is the same rule for casting Touch Spells and Holding the Charge), the Magus can instead do Y, which is "make one free melee attack with his weapon...as part of casting this spell." It changes the general rule of X, which applies to the casting of all touch spells.
So let's review.
The Magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon as part of casting this spell for Spellstrike. This is done instead of the free melee touch attack [the magus] normally allowed to deliver. Notice how it changes the assumed rule of "the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell."
So what exactly is tripping you up?
If you noticed the Spellstrike clause, that's where I spell it out. It says "Instead of X, a Magus can Y.
X = the [one] free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the [touch] spell.
In the English language, when I refer to the table, or the chairs, what accompanies the word "the" is a noun which is sometimes coupled with adjectives/adverbs. In this case, X is accompanied with adjectives/adverbs.
Since "free melee touch attack" refers to "attack," a singular 'noun,' being "free," and "melee," for adjectives, and "touch" as an adverb, this means that even as a combined subject, it is still a singular entity, through and through.
Keep in mind that instead of the general rule X (which is the same rule for casting Touch Spells and Holding the Charge), the Magus can instead do Y, which is "make one free melee attack with his weapon...as part of casting this spell." It changes the general rule of X, which applies to the casting of all touch spells.
So let's review.
The Magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon as part of casting this spell for Spellstrike. This is done instead of the free melee touch attack [the magus] normally allowed to deliver. Notice how it changes the assumed rule of "the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell."
So what exactly is tripping you up?
you realize that you just made your entire argument invalid by using the phrase the chairs in your argument...the word "the" does not explicitly dictate singular as you so easily pointed without even trying...
on another note, spellstrike eludes to the "normally" allowed free touch attack. the issue here is that Chill Touch does not having a single free touch attack as most other spells of its kind do, so "normal" for this spell is 1xCL.
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its not that im NOT listening to you explain it. its that all im hearing from you is RAI instead of RAW.
I believe you have it backwards. Not in a single post of mine have a mentioned the acronym RAI (until this post). Please, quote me. I have all day.
I (and we) have been asking you where you keep reading these rules-as-written. Last I checked, you have still not provided an answer except for your own rules-as-interpreted.
You'll find no love if you keep this up. The rules-as-written are clear. To most people, anyways.
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If you noticed the Spellstrike clause, that's where I spell it out. It says "Instead of X, a Magus can Y.
X = the [one] free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the [touch] spell.
In the English language, when I refer to the table, or the chairs, what accompanies the word "the" is a noun which is sometimes coupled with adjectives/adverbs. In this case, X is accompanied with adjectives/adverbs.
Since "free melee touch attack" refers to "attack," a singular 'noun,' being "free," and "melee," for adjectives, and "touch" as an adverb, this means that even as a combined subject, it is still a singular entity, through and through.
Keep in mind that instead of the general rule X (which is the same rule for casting Touch Spells and Holding the Charge), the Magus can instead do Y, which is "make one free melee attack with his weapon...as part of casting this spell." It changes the general rule of X, which applies to the casting of all touch spells.
So let's review.
The Magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon as part of casting this spell for Spellstrike. This is done instead of the free melee touch attack [the magus] normally allowed to deliver. Notice how it changes the assumed rule of "the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell."
So what exactly is tripping you up?
you realize that you just made your entire argument invalid by using the phrase the chairs in your argument...the word "the" does not explicitly dictate singular as you so easily pointed without even trying...
on another note, spellstrike eludes to the "normally" allowed free touch attack. the issue here is that Chill Touch does not having a single free touch attack as most other spells of its kind do, so "normal" for this spell is 1xCL.
You read too much into the word "the". "The" can refer to both a singular noun as well as plural nouns. In either case, it refers to a subject or a set of subjects. Since the noun in Spellstrike mentions the general rule as a singular noun, it refers to one melee touch attack.
Except you have not cited anything that calls for it. What tells you that Chill Touch allows you to make Touch Attacks as a Free Action? Here's what it says about Touch Spells:
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks.
A Touch Spell is an Armed Melee/Ranged Attack. Attacks require a Standard Action to perform, except for the case of casting a Touch Spell, which is a Free Action to deliver it.
If that's not enough, this bolded section right here will explain everything:
If you get more than one attack per round...for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.
Editing and Emphasis mine. Here's the full entry on the matter.
When you cast the spell (a standard action), by RAW, you cannot make the additional attacks of Chill Touch, because you already spent a Standard Action. Therefore, you only get one Touch (from the Free Action), period. If you are able to get more than one attack for some special reason (I'd say Chill Touch's "imaginary clause" would easily fall under this matter), a full-round action must be spent in order to use all of those attacks, and even those have limits via BAB.
Except you have not cited anything that calls for it. What tells you that Chill Touch allows you to make Touch Attacks as a Free Action? Here's what it says about Touch Spells:
Touch Spells wrote:
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks.
A Touch Spell is an Armed Melee/Ranged Attack. Attacks require a Standard Action to perform, except for the case of casting a Touch Spell, which is a Free Action to deliver it. <--emphasis mineIf that's not enough, this bolded section right here will explain everything:
Full-Attack Action wrote:
If you get more than one attack per round...for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.
Editing and Emphasis mine. Here's the full entry on the matter.Free Actions are in addition to anything used/applied to a full-round or full-attack action. Thus this part does not apply
When you cast the spell (a standard action), by RAW, you cannot make the additional attacks of Chill Touch, because you already spent a Standard Action. Therefore, you only get one Touch (from the Free Action), period. If you are able to get more than one attack for some special reason (I'd say Chill Touch's "imaginary clause" would easily fall under this matter), a full-round action must be spent in order to use all of those attacks, and even those have limits via BAB.
again you are incorrect because chill touch would allow multiple free actions within this standard action. so you would be using a standard action that gives you x amount of free actions as a result
i HAVE cited where Chill Touch allows Free Actions to make a melee touch attack.
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
And where does it say that spending Standard Actions gives you Free Actions, considering that the Free Actions are already there, regardless of spending Standard Actions or not? Nothing allows you to get additional actions unless it specifically calls out saying you do, and Chill Touch/Touch Spells isn't/aren't one of them.
Your premise of "I can make X Touch Attacks as Free Actions" not only flies in the face of a general rule of 3 Free Actions per round, but it also doesn't contradict the fact that it's still an Attack, and getting more than one attack per round requires that you spend a Full Attack Action by RAW.
It's the same stupid logic that you apply with your argument. By pure unintelligent RAW, having more than one Attack requires a Full Round Action to get those additional attacks, and Touch Attacks as Free Actions are still Attacks; the Full Round Action, of which cannot be done in addition to a Standard (by casting the spell) or Move Action (by getting in range of the target), makes it physically impossible by mechanics to both cast Chill Touch and make 20 or so Touch Attacks in the same round, since pure RAW is Standard Action Chill Touch ->Full Round Action Deliver All Touches.
Its not a simple attack, its a FREE ACTION granted by the spell. This particular spell allows for more than one.
Also your "general rule of three free actions" is nothing more than a house rule and is not quoted anywhere in the books.
Let's look at what you yourself highlighted.
Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.
Looking closer...
Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.
I really don't see the problem.
The rules for touch spells as written do NOT limit the number of touch attempts you can make as a free action for casting a spell.
The limit comes from every touch spell on record with the exception of chill touch.
The wording in chill touch says that you may make this touch a total number of times equal to your level. This makes chill touch the numerical factor here for how many times you can touch as a free action
Sorry, but you're asking specifically about Chill Touch in combination with Spellstrike, and Spellstrike says "a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon [...] as part of casting this spell." No matter how much you insist on reading Chill Touch your way, it doesn't change the fact that Spellstrike explicitly allows you one free melee attack. Not two, not three, not "as many free attacks as the spell allows you."
One.
Sorry, but you're asking specifically about Chill Touch in combination with Spellstrike, and Spellstrike says "a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon [...] as part of casting this spell." No matter how much you insist on reading Chill Touch your way, it doesn't change the fact that Spellstrike explicitly allows you one free melee attack. Not two, not three, not "as many free attacks as the spell allows you."
One.
read up, i already agreed that this doesnt work with spellstrike. the conversation evolved from there to using it WITHOUT spellstrike since if i am correct then the Magus is the only class that suffers this 1 attack delivery method. a sorcerer for example of 10th level could cast the spell as a standard action, more 30ft to his intended target, then proceed to touch it 10 times as a free (or 10 free actions depending on how you interpret it) action(s).
i know this is obsurd. i'm well aware. I never intend to use the spell this way. (my current magus uses it how we all know it SHOULD work) but i'm playing the devil's advocate here so that there is a CLEAR GUIDANCE on the subject for later reference.
as i see it right now, the rules are unclear on why a caster of higher than 1st level who casts this spell CANT discharge all the available touches the spell gives him all at once. a free action is just that - free. the spell gives you multiple touches per cast. nowhere in either the touch spells rules OR the spells description does it state that ONLY the first touch is free. its simply assumed. common sense not withstanding, it CAN be argued that someone can touch something many times within the span of a free action so long as the thing they are using allows them to do it (which this spell apparently does)
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Shimesen's question has evolved beyond the interaction of touch spells and Spellstrike. He now believes there's nothing saying you can't get unlimited touches with spells like Chill Touch.
We've tried telling him you need rules that say you can in the first place, but he has yet to quote anything as evidence.
anyone know how i can change the title of this thread so i can remove the spellstrike part?
Its not a simple attack, its a FREE ACTION granted by the spell. This particular spell allows for more than one.
Also your "general rule of three free actions" is nothing more than a house rule and is not quoted anywhere in the books.
So wait, if it's a Free Action for you to deliver a Touch Spell, as a Touch Attack, then how is it not an Attack? Because it's a Free Action? I suppose Attacks as Swift Actions aren't Attacks either, right?
Too bad it is. It's an attack that can be done as a Free Action when you cast the spell. It's still an attack, and still counts as you getting more than one attack from the spell Chill Touch, a very special reason for you being able to discharge all of those attacks, which, by the same stupid RAW you adhere to, requires a Full Round Action to do, since it's more than one attack you're making.
Your argument of it being a houserule is ridiculous when it's an answered FAQ.
With the FAQ, it specifically says that it can be limited by GM FIAT, and if the GM says "You can do that as many times as you want," then sure. But are you really going to be all like "I'll totally allow it!" knowing what that entails? I hope you enjoy your Magus draining an average of 1D6 Strength Damage/round, turning monsters into husks of their former self in seconds from a 1st level spell. Most of the 3rd-4th level spells are barely that powerful, much less a 1st level spell.
The intent is obvious, and expecting the RAW to be just as smart as the intent is a foolish endeavor, especially considering it counters itself so stupidly and so easily.
Darksol, your attacks are truly unwarranted, I'm well aware of the fact that the INTENT isn't to allow you to use a 1st level spell to, as you said, "turn monsters into husks of their former selves". but thats not the point.
the point is that the rules ACTUALLY allow it!
as for the FAQ you quoted, you are right, it is left entirely up to the GM to decide how many free actions you can take in a turn, and there are many GM's who are very willing to allow an unlimited number (such as myself) so long as those free actions are stated as free actions in their given rules.
i think perhaps you are confused with the attacks issue however, because there are plenty of Ex, SLA, and Su abilities that grant aditional free attacks to a player that do not require them to make a full-attack action. as an example, Bashing Finish lets you make a shield bash attack against an opponent you have scored a critical hit on. this attack is taken WHENEVER you score a critical hit. which means that if making a standard attack action and scoring a critical, making a full-attack action and scoring a critical, bullrushing and scoring a critical, etc, etc. its an EXTRA attack granted by a feat, this does not turn your bullrush attempt or charge or whatever else into a full-attack action. it grants you an additional attack ontop of whatever else you are doing.
when you quoted the following:
Full-Attack Action wrote:
If you get more than one attack per round...for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.
the "special reason" its talking about is iterative attacks granted by having a high bab or the extra attacks from using two-weapon fighting. its not refering to free actions. free actions can be taken before/during or after a full-round/full-attack action. they are their own actions and do not have anything to do with a full-round action unless specifically stated so in their rules.
for an example of this i site spell combat: At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
in this it specifically states that in order to gain the benifit of casting a spell and still using all your other attacks, you must use a full-round action. this is allowed because you are getting a full-attack action AND a standard action but are taking penalties to do it.
not all free-actions that grant attacks have this requirement however. the free touch attack from casting a spell is one such example. you use a standard action to cast the spell, the casting of that spell GRANTS you a free action to use a touch attack to deliver the spell.
taking the feat Quicken Spell can give you the ability to use 2 free actions to deliver 2 touch attacks from 2 spells in the same round. neither of these spells attacks are considered to be used as part of a full-round action OR a full-attack action. the only actions you are taking in that round would be a standard action to cast a spell, a free to deliver it, a swift action to cast the second spell, and a 2nd free action to deliver it. you never used a full-round or full-attack action in that round. so you can still move your full movement as a move action as well.