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Just reached level 7!
My level 6 Barbarian: "Baracanth of Rage" strangled the troll and advance level. He took the prestige class of Pain Taster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/pain-tast er).
Barbarian is of course my favoured class, but can i treat PrC as a favoured class and get my +1hp?!
You never know, it might save my life when we go up against that angry dragon!
Thanks,
Morlaf
You cannot gain the +1 hp from Favored Class going into Pain Taster, for two reasons.
One, because it isn't your Favored Class, Barbarian is.
Two, because Prestige Classes cannot be chosen as a Favored Class.
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Well, them's the rules.
The favored class bonus was put in to encourage people to stick to one class. . . Paizo hates PrCs as a general rule, and doesn't like multi-classing.
But keep in mind, the stuff you are getting from a PrC is probably better stuff than from abase class?
But keep in mind, the stuff you are getting from a PrC is probably better stuff than from abase class?
Not really true with Paizo classes. Paizo has developed classes that depend on gaining levels in it to get access to good stuff. WoTC front loaded a lot of classes in 3.0 and 3.5 so that a couple level dip was all you needed to pick up the best abilities. Now there are good abilities through all levels of a class, and if you take a prestiege class you're going to miss out on the great stuff you're leaving behind.
But, to the OP's original question. No. You don't get favored class bonus for your prestiege class. If you were an half-elf I would consider allowing you (if you knew at the creation of the character you were going to take a prestiege class) to choose that as your second favored class. But it would be in direct violation of the rules.
Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Prestige Classes) can never be a favored class.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The favored class bonus was put in to encourage people to stick to one class. . . Paizo hates PrCs as a general rule, and doesn't like multi-classing.
It's a little extreme to use the word "hate" here - it's more that they want staying single classed to be viable, and not to make muticlassing and PrCs the no-brainer options they were in 3.5.
You have to really want the flavor of the PrC to go into it now, instead of it just being "What you do after level 5." It's now actually a choice where you give something up either way.
It would be a houserule, but as nothing says you have to be in your favored class at level 1, it may be reasonable for a GM to allow a player to choose a future PrC as their favored class. I'd be okay with it.
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It would be a houserule, but as nothing says you have to be in your favored class at level 1, it may be reasonable for a GM to allow a player to choose a future PrC as their favored class. I'd be okay with it.
You are correct that you don't have to choose your first class as your favored class. I see it all the time with people who are starting with a one-level dip. Here's a link to back up ryric's statement about favored class bonuses for prestige classes requiring a house change to the normal rules.
Prestige classes allow characters to become truly exceptional, gaining powers beyond the ken of their peers. Unlike the core classes, characters must meet specific requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class. Characters that take levels in prestige classes do not gain any favored class bonuses for those levels.
You have to really want the flavor of the PrC to go into it now, instead of it just being "What you do after level 5." It's now actually a choice where you give something up either way.
That's how I think of them. You really have to want the flavor options they offer over mechanics. And even then, not all of them do flavor substantially better than the base classes that gain access to them.
For instance, the Assassin prestiege class. It gets poison use and a death attack (that improves as he levels). Now poison use can be a flavorful thing, but there are rogue archetypes that get poison use and plenty of rogue talents that make it more useful than the ability the Assassin gets. The dark clothing and stelath and other flavorful things you would imagine as an assassin aren't really built into the class significantly except for his death attack. So you have to really want that imagery of the death attack to pick up the class, in my opinion. And even without it is still very possible for a rogue to be every bit as much an assassin as the prestiege class is.
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I suppose that kinda covers that, then....
Glad you aint my GM!It probably isn't what you mean, but I read that as:
I'll just badger my GM to house rule in my favor until he relents and give me what I want. If he doesn't, I'll find another GM.
...or he means that his current GM is doing it wrong without realizing it, but since the player is getting the benefit, why play an honest game and tell the GM...
My fellow players hate it when I point out how the rules are suppose to work, especially when a mistake on the rules is in there favor. I come from the school of "if the characters can do it, so can the monsters" so breaking the rules usually leads to my character dying.
The favored class bonus was put in to encourage people to stick to one class. . . Paizo hates PrCs as a general rule, and doesn't like multi-classing.It's a little extreme to use the word "hate" here - it's more that they want staying single classed to be viable, and not to make muticlassing and PrCs the no-brainer options they were in 3.5.
You have to really want the flavor of the PrC to go into it now, instead of it just being "What you do after level 5." It's now actually a choice where you give something up either way.
It would be a houserule, but as nothing says you have to be in your favored class at level 1, it may be reasonable for a GM to allow a player to choose a future PrC as their favored class. I'd be okay with it.
Ok, so how about "Paizo does not support PrCs and has not for several years?"
When was the last new PrC published? There are the core rules ones (reprints of the OGL/DMG ones from 3.5 primarily) and a few here and there-- but Ultimate Combat did not have combat PrCs, Ultimate Magic has no Magical PrCs and the APG and ARG have none. . . I'd say its fair to say that Paizo at the very minimum has an EXTREME DISLIKE for PrCs. . .
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And not just PoP, they just tend to put them out in Setting Specific material, not Setting neutral material.
Books are budgeted to be the same size regardless, so if they put in a PrC, they would need to drop a Base Class, etc.
Every new Base Class they release multiplies the build options for PrCs as well.
there was the paths of prestige book put out last year... lol it contained like 20? new Prestige classes?
It's not that they don't like them, they just don't want them to be the path of optimization like they were before.
I find that Paths of Prestige proves that Paizo hates PrC's.
APG did have some PrC's in it and on whole they were terrible too.
The upcoming Gods of the Inner Sea is supposed to have PrC's in it, hopefully they will be better but I'm not crossing my fingers.
It's really a shame because Dragon Magazine under Paizo had some really great PrC's so it is clear they can write good ones; they just choose not to.
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Winter Witch seems pretty good. Living Monolith seems pretty good. Hellknight seems pretty good.
Hellknight Signifier seems pretty good. Shadow Dancer seems pretty good. Blackfire Adept Seems pretty good.
Bloatmage seems pretty good. Magaambyan Arcanist seems pretty good. Red Mantis Assassin seems pretty good.
Cyphermage seems pretty good. Demoniac seems pretty good. Diabolist seems pretty good.
Divine Assessor seems pretty good. Divine Scion seems pretty good. Knight of Ozem seems pretty good.
Golden Legionnaire seems pretty good. Grand Marshal seems pretty good. Grey Warden seems pretty good.
Mammoth Rider seems pretty good. Master Chymist seems pretty good. Razmiran Priest seem pretty good.
Rift Warden seems pretty good. Rage Prophet seems pretty good. Soul Drinker seem pretty good.
Umbral Court Agent seems pretty good. Veiled Illusionist seems pretty good.
But I guess they just choose not to publish any good PrCs.
there was the paths of prestige book put out last year... lol it contained like 20? new Prestige classes?
It's not that they don't like them, they just don't want them to be the path of optimization like they were before.
I find that Paths of Prestige proves that Paizo hates PrC's.
APG did have some PrC's in it and on whole they were terrible too.
The upcoming Gods of the Inner Sea is supposed to have PrC's in it, hopefully they will be better but I'm not crossing my fingers.
It's really a shame because Dragon Magazine under Paizo had some really great PrC's so it is clear they can write good ones; they just choose not to.
Paths of Prestige was almost 2 years ago now. . . its clearly not a section of the game they want to support heavily. And as I believe BigDTBone is claiming the PrCs in it were primarily uninspired-- especially in certain sectors.
Paizo has yet to publish a single worthwhile Wizard PrC. . . and that's the class that needs it the most since they did very little if anything to make staying straight Wizard appealing unlike some other classes that used to dive into PrCs ASAP. . .
I mean. . . I can only justify playing an Eldritch Knight so many times, but without anything on the Wizard table to keep me there and no other viable options in pathfinder core. . .well, its a two caster level loss and I guess a Paladin Eldritch Knight is different from a Fighter Elditch Knight?
Most of those prestige classes were probably meant for NPCs, because most of them represent characters from various Golarion organizations. Their entry requirements and class features tend to be so narrowly focused that few players would want to take them.
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But why do you think they need a prestige class?
The game and ability to customize without going to a prestige class is certainly much greater than when PrCs were introduced. To wit, the PrC were the only way to achieve greater power than pure classing.
Now the pure classes are varied and in general equal or greater power than presitge classes. IE archetypes are prestige classes with just a different name but start at lvl 1.
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Straight Wizard is unappealing? Brother, if the Wizard had NO class features beyond its spellcasting it'd still be among the game's premiere classes.
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there was the paths of prestige book put out last year... lol it contained like 20? new Prestige classes?
It's not that they don't like them, they just don't want them to be the path of optimization like they were before.
I find that Paths of Prestige proves that Paizo hates PrC's.
APG did have some PrC's in it and on whole they were terrible too.
The upcoming Gods of the Inner Sea is supposed to have PrC's in it, hopefully they will be better but I'm not crossing my fingers.
It's really a shame because Dragon Magazine under Paizo had some really great PrC's so it is clear they can write good ones; they just choose not to.
Paths of Prestige was almost 2 years ago now. . . its clearly not a section of the game they want to support heavily. And as I believe BigDTBone is claiming the PrCs in it were primarily uninspired-- especially in certain sectors.
Paizo has yet to publish a single worthwhile Wizard PrC. . . and that's the class that needs it the most since they did very little if anything to make staying straight Wizard appealing unlike some other classes that used to dive into PrCs ASAP. . .
I mean. . . I can only justify playing an Eldritch Knight so many times, but without anything on the Wizard table to keep me there and no other viable options in pathfinder core. . .well, its a two caster level loss and I guess a Paladin Eldritch Knight is different from a Fighter Elditch Knight?
Exactly this. I haven't found any PrC's since the CRB that made me go, "wow! I need to play this!" Paths of Prestige had a few that, as a DM, made me go, "I think I could use that, but my PC's will slaughter it." Or, "I think I can use that but... Meh... I can replicate that flavor more closely with a different build and that build won't suck."
Most all PrC's for pathfinder are completely underwealming. The best ones are ones that came about from when Paizo was producing content for 3.x
Straight Wizard is unappealing? Brother, if the Wizard had NO class features beyond its spellcasting it'd still be among the game's premiere classes.
That's no excuse for there to be no reason to stay in the class beyond "the earliest you can qualify for any PrC" which has been the truth in 3.0, 3.5, and is still the truth in Pathfinder.
Throw in that because Wizards have no viable/interesting Archetypes (a by product of their complete lack of class features to exchange for other class features) they are left with no options for differentiation except spell list. . .
And no, before you say it that is not acceptable.
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Some good incentives to stay Wizard include Familiar progression, bonus feats (including Arcane Discoveries), not having to burn feats / skills on PrC qualification, school powers that scale with Wizard level, and the Elf favored class bonus.
Wizards are already the game's most powerful class, and one of the versatile and varied, just for having access to the whole Wizard spell list.
Some good incentives to stay Wizard include Familiar progression, bonus feats (including Arcane Discoveries), not having to burn feats / skills on PrC qualification, school powers that scale with Wizard level, and the Elf favored class bonus.
Wizards are already the game's most powerful class, and one of the versatile and varied, just for having access to the whole Wizard spell list. They don't need a power boost beyond what they already have.
Oh sweet, so I get 3 bonus feats in 15 levels, a slightly more powerful toad (but not enough that I would ever likely use him for . .. well much of anything), and I don't have to spend feats on requirements?
Sounds overwhelming.
Plus if I'm an Elf I get extra uses of powers that already aren't enough for it to be worth it for me to stay?
There's a big difference between ability POWER and ability INTEREST. And frankly, outside of spells Wizards don't have anything interesting to keep them on that chart instead of ANY prestige class.
That's just a fact, and arguing that Wizards don't deserve to have anything because they get spells is silly-- Clerics, Druids, Witches, Oracles. . . every other spell caster gets something at least quasi interesting on the chart except Wizard and Sorcerer.
In 3.5, it wasn't a problem-- we just acknowledged there was no reason to stay wizard and selected the prestige classes that interested us (and of course decided if we could squeeze in the feats for Master Specialist for those 2-3 levels from 4-6 before we could qualify for the PrC we really wanted).
Look-- I get that you don't like Wizards and want to grind an axe against them, but they still deserve entries on their chart other than spells, just like martials deserve entries on their charts other than BaB.
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I always thought getting things sooner, and the free feats were already pretty awesome... also the schools of focus...
I mean a wizard is a wizard right, it's not like a conjuration school (teleportation) is any different from a dispelling focused abjurer?... or that they don't get any new powers at lvl 8...
Base Class Level is also crucial for qualifying for Improved Familiar, which is based off Class Level, not Caster Level.
Did anybody think it was strange how quickly it shifted from:
'all PrCs suck if there's any at all' to 'no reason to not take a PrC as Wizard/Sorc'?
:-)
EDIT: Funnily enough, I get the feeling that happened with no regards to the fact that I posted a bunch of Wizard-compatable PrC that are pretty good, in response to the previous "Pathfinder PrCs suck" meme.
I always thought getting things sooner, and the free feats were already pretty awesome... also the schools of focus...
I mean a wizard is a wizard right, it's not like a conjuration school (teleportation) is any different from a dispelling focused abjurer?... or that they don't get any new powers at lvl 8...
I guess I am not as enthralled by different SLAs at level 1 (before I could take any PrCs) and one extra SLA at level 8 as you are?
Even counting the level 8 extra ability that SOME arcane schools have that is an ability other than spells at exactly 6 levels total-- far less than any other class.
You can't acknowledge why I might be more interested in a PrC to fill out my levels than a Rogue (an ability at every level from 1-20), Ranger (ditto), Paladin (ditto again), or Druid (entry on 15/20 levels)?
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I guess because some of the lvl 10+ discoveries you don't like?
It's a matter of dead levels of progress with you and the spells not being good enough a reason?
Look at the sorcerer. Even though they "get something" at 15... it's devoid of much progress from lvl 8 to lvl 15. The new spells I'm assuming along the way don't really do much for you I guess and you need something with more than extra spells/slots/saves each level eh?
So your issue is with lack of progress at each level other than new spells correct?
Paizo's FAQ ruling on PrCs and spontaneous casters also makes PrCs worse for them
(although for the life of me, I have no idea how they can get from the RAW to their ruling,
and I likewise can't see a balance reason to impose stealth errata given Clerics/Spec Wizards get their Domain/School slots)
Paizo's FAQ ruling on PrCs and spontaneous casters also makes PrCs worse for them
(although for the life of me, I have no idea how they can get from the RAW to their ruling,
and I likewise can't see a balance reason to impose stealth errata given Clerics/Spec Wizards get their Domain/School slots)
What?!? Are you saying that spontaneous caster don't get spells known? Link?
Inner Sea Gods is supposed to have new PrC's so they aren't dead quite yet.
I also really liked Paths of Prestige, plenty of interesting PrCs
Phew! And here I was worried this thread would get off topic!
They ruled you only gain spells known/slots/etc from the "Spells" Class Feature,
even though PrCs never specify Class Features, but say that Spont Caster gain spells known as if taking a level in that class.
So (per FAQ) no Bloodline or Mystery spells, although Oracle Cure/Inflict are within the "Spells" Class Feature.
(in FAQ for Core Rules)
At least now there is Pages/Rings of Spell Knowledge, and Mnemonic Vests along with Extra Spells Known Feat.
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that's not a nerf, that's how it always was...
it was just some people confused that thought somehow you'd get a class feature not provided by a prestige class. It's not a change, it's just a clarification for people who couldn't read. Nothing about that changed from 8 years ago to now.
Base Class Level is also crucial for qualifying for Improved Familiar, which is based off Class Level, not Caster Level.
Did anybody think it was strange how quickly it shifted from:
'all PrCs suck if there's any at all' to 'no reason to not take a PrC as Wizard/Sorc'?:-)
EDIT: Funnily enough, I get the feeling that happened with no regards to the fact that I posted a bunch of Wizard-compatable PrC that are pretty good, in response to the previous "Pathfinder PrCs suck" meme.
You sir, listed a wall of text that said that a ton of PrCs were pretty good without any qualifications of why you thought so on any of them.
I disagree with a lot of those, by the way. . .
Winter Witch-- not terribly interested in the Witch class and this offers me nothing to make me want to take that class to then take this PrC
Hellknight and Hellknight Signifier-- I will read these the next time a DM says "I'm running an evil game", until then they are only good for bad guys.
Shadow Dancer-- wasn't good in 3.0 DMG or the 3.5 DMG, and the PF core did nothing to change that.
Blackfire Adept-- oh look, another evil PrC.
Bloatmage-- not sure what book this is in? Needless to say its buried somewhere I do not have access to.
Magaambyan Arcanist-- first one you listed that is a legitimate option-- I've thought about it, but playing a Wizard whose "really, really good" isn't that interesting to me either-- I think we can agree that we very rarely take the "Good" Domain on our clerics, so access to it as a Wizard is a little underwhelming.
Red Mantis Assassin-- again, this MIGHT be cool. But its buried in a book from long before I switched to PF, that I simply do not have access to so I can't say.
Cyphermage-- the abilities based on scrolls and glyphs are pretty uninspiring-- but it does gain one at every level, so I put this in the category of "well at least its not Wizard levels" alongside Eldritch Knight.
Demoniac and Diabolist-- oh look, even MORE evil PrCs!
Divine Assessor-- this isn't even listed on the pathfinder wiki, so I have no clue here.
Divine Scion-- Cleric PrC that makes the cleric "more domainey" in one domain; its ok? DR/2 is nice and there might be a domain on the list here that makes it worthwhile, but not sure its worth abandoning cleric for (and definitely not for Druid who could technically qualify).
Knight of Ozem-- warrior type that really doesn't like undead and necromancy-- I have to say, these kinds of PrCs have been published A LOT and they are almost never worth it regardless-- if it focuses on killing one thing (Demons, Undead, ect) and has a paladin feel its probably going to be underwhelming at best.
Golden Legionnaire-- looks good. Solid Knight style/ "tank" PrC
Grand Marshal-- again, not even on the wiki so I don't know.
Grey Warden( I am assuming you meant Grey Gardener? from paths of prestige? if not I have no clue)-- this one looks ok. It gives up a few too many caster levels for my liking, but for a rogue/cleric multiclass option it could work.
Mammoth Rider-- its promising. I would have to run some maths to see if you would really be better off with the stat boosts it gives your beasty compared to just going druid and taking a mammoth mount, but it its intriguing at the minimum-- the fact that the requirement is a mount or animal companion equivalent to a 6th level druid already makes it a lot less appealing compared to if they had made it a BaB requirement and then given you the mammoth so I could get there as a barbarian or fighter. . .
Master Chymist-- its ok. Alchemist who focuses on the mutagen more than bombs, fits a nice niche, but Alchemist gets so much already and this just re-focuses that slightly. I'd probably play a straight Alchemist first and I have yet to have been drawn to that, so its fairly meh? No one is saying "Alchemist isn't that cool, but Master Chymist rocks so I'm in" for sure.
Razmiran Priest-- nichest of niche concepts. If you want to play a con-man pretending to be a priest its your thing, but I can't say how often that's what I want.
Riftwarden-- the missing caster levels make my soul bleed, and all you get is Banishing powers? No, just no, awful awful awful.
Rage Prophet-- I put this in the same category as the Grey Gardener-- if you want a Barbarian/Cleric it solid, but of course they are making a new class in Advanced class guide to fill the casting barbarian as well. . . two actually a bard and a sorc one. Still has its place I guess though.
Souldrinker-- again, from an obscure source, and double again from looking at the wiki-- its for evil characters.
Umbral Court Agent-- somehow manages to combine an Evil PrC with missing caster levels and the Shadow Dancer-- I think that says more than enough as to why this is bad.
Veiled Illusionist-- good for an illusionist concept, certainly the best wizard-able PrC on this list. . .
From the core rulebook entry:
"Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, an eldritch
knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a
level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before
adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any
other benefit a character of that class would have gained,
except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he
is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective
level of spellcasting."
So if that is no longer the case it is a SERIOUS nerf to PrCs and pretty much proof that Paizo hates them.
Hellknight and Hellknight Signifier are not evil PrCs.
Hellknights are all Lawful. Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, and Lawful Evil.
You can easily be a Paladin Hellknight.
Man, hold on, because you have a number of those PrCs totally wrong.
Working...
Not technically evil, but it sure reads evil when I read it?
I mean, they emulate the legions of hell, they care only for the law not morality? I dunno, like I said it reads evil to me.
and I fully admit I might be wrong on some of them, I've certainly missed things before, those opinions were off memory and quick glances, obviously.
Also, I will admit that the Daivrat, Genie's Friend PrC is awesome (since its an update on the Sha'ir concept from Al'Qadim which I loved)-- but again BURIED in a Player companion book that if not for my preternatural love of middle eastern-ey stuff I never would have seen.
Not technically evil, but it sure reads evil when I read it?Hellknight and Hellknight Signifier are not evil PrCs.
Hellknights are all Lawful. Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, and Lawful Evil.
You can easily be a Paladin Hellknight.
Man, hold on, because you have a number of those PrCs totally wrong.
Working...
<hyperbole, but not by much>
Prerequisite: you must own 1 pair of bracers made from the hide of tortured baby seals.Alignment: Any
Yea...
</hyperbole>
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Rage Prophet is Barbarian/Oracle, not Cleric, and there is no ACG equivalent.
Next...
Screw it.
If you are going to talk thrash about something, at least know what you are talking about.
If I go on about how "I really hate Football, and the way they abuse horses in the game.", then no one is going to take me seriously.
If you hate lost caster progression so much, aren't impressed by three bonus feats, and are annoyed by a lack of class features, why would you think prestiging into Eldritch Knight is an improvement? Or are you being serious when you hold BAB progression up as being comparable to spells?
Also the Divination (Foresight) and Conjuration (Teleportation) powers are well worth having +1/2 Wizard level added to their uses per day.
Rage Prophet is Barbarian/Oracle, not Cleric, and there is no ACG equivalent.
Next...
Screw it.
If you are going to talk thrash about something, at least know what you are talking about.
If I go on about how "I really hate Football, and the way they abuse horses in the game.", then no one is going to take me seriously.
You're right, I missed the Oracle requirement. Its good, I didn't mean to bad mouth Rage Prophet specifically-- ACG is going to have Skald which is Barbarian/Bard (and bards can heal so its on similarish territory) and the one that is Barbarian/Sorcerer (so not quite the same, but still another take on spells+ Rage)?
If you hate lost caster progression so much, aren't impressed by three bonus feats, and are annoyed by a lack of class features, why would you think prestiging into Eldritch Knight is an improvement? Or are you being serious when you hold BAB progression up as being comparable to spells?Also the Divination (Foresight) and Conjuration (Teleportation) powers are well worth having +1/2 Wizard level added to their uses per day.
There is a very specific number of caster levels I am willing to give up. That number is two-- which is what Eldritch knight gives up (one at first PrC level and one to get the reqs). Three levels what I am getting would have to be awesome, and four or more levels even more so. I'd do it if I were blown away by a PrC, but I have yet to see that PrC.
And yes, BaB is good. Don't forget that even Wizards need to hit with rays a lot of the time. . .
That said-- in 3.5 I never would have taken Eldritch Knight. Too many better options, but in Pathfinder I can't take those options and have resorted to it.
The Foresight power is cute, but I don't know that I care to have it that often?
Dimension Door is nice, but a few extra uses of it compared to what I can get in a good PrC its not going to hold up?