Fundamentally, what counts as a Melee combat check?
a) A melee-skill based combat check (i.e. rolling your Melee die)
OR
b) A combat check with the "melee" trait (e.g. using a weapon with the melee trait)
OR
c) The same as (b) but unarmed combat adds an implied 'melee' trait to the check so also counts?
OR
d) Any combat check that lacks the 'ranged' trait, i.e. perhaps any non-ranged combat check is 'melee' by default? (Including the use of spells such as Lightning touch or Inflict)
I'm guessing that the answer is (c) but look forward to an official answer!
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You are confusing a skill with a die. There is no Melee die. So far the Melee skill is based on STR [Unless you are using Sajan's power to replace it with DEX], so if you have a STR of 1d10 and Melee: STR +2, if you are making a Melee check you roll 1d10 +2.
A Melee combat check is when a Bane specifically states that it can be defeated by the Melee skill. Now if your PC does not have the Melee skill, then you can't use it to defeat that Bane so you need to find another way to defeat it. Fortunately, I can't think of one Bane that doesn't allow you to at least use your STR for the combat check.
Typically if you don't have the Melee skill, you can pick it up by using a Weapon that has the Melee trait. If you use a weapon with the Melee trait, you can use your base STR die [This is the one exception to the rule that if you don't have the skill you have to use a base 1d4, because the rules state that any PC can use their STR in a combat check] plus what ever dice or modifiers on the weapons card. So if you have a STR of 1d6 with no Melee skill and play a Weapon that adds 1d8 with the Melee trait, you can try and succeed with the Melee check at 1d6 + 1d8.
"You are confusing a skill with a die" I am glad to see it's not just me.
H4PPY I can't believe you would do that. See my latest post on what is a die. I may have an answer. Then again I may s do till be confused.
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I think it might be because the game designer kinda lumped the based stats [STR, DEX, etc] all together under the Skills section of the PC card. Ultimately, the die is what ever is next to the stat. If your STR is 1d4, then the die is 1d4. If you have improved your character by checking off +1 next to STR, then the modifier would be +1, but the die is still 1d4. Further if you have the Melee skill, as STR + 2, your die is still 1d4, but then you have modifiers of +1 and +2 for a total of 1d4 +3 for the roll. Not the die.
Jeez, I (of all people) know what a die and a skill are :)
I put the bit in brackets as "layman's terms" to explain what I meant by option (a).
Let me try wording that differently!
(a) A melee-skill based combat check (i.e. a check where you have chosen to use your 'melee' skill as the basis for the check, rolling the related stat's physical die and adding on your character's melee bonus - or rolling 1d4 if you have no such skill listed on your character card)
In other words, I used "Melee die" to mean what the game designers use it to mean.
Right, back to the thread. I think you've missed what I'm getting at, TClifford.
There are boons which interact with "Melee combat checks". E.g. the soldier can be used to "add 1d4 to a melee combat check" - the question posed by this thread is effectively:
When can boons that refer to a 'melee combat check' be played?
I think the four options I listed above cover all the based, and my guess is that the answer is (c).
@TClifford's answer seemed to be that the answer is (a).
It's a. In my opinion. Edit...wait a second...,
Ok - just read the Traits thread and I now see why you have this question. Basically, you are saying, if a weapon or attack spell had the melee trait, but I was rolling, for example, my dexterity skill, could I use a boon that made a melee combat check better?
Hypothetical -
Brass Knuckles of Fury - For your combat roll your Dexterity die + 1d4. Traits - Melee, Basic.
I play that in Step 1, can I play the Soldier in Step 3? Based on Mikes feedback, yes? Do we have a Melee trait anywhere?
I for sure don't think you get an implied melee trait by just not having a weapon.
Mike and Vic have already said that a "Ranged check" is one with the ranged trait (not one where you're using your RANGED skill), but I'm hoping for some clarification on the Melee equivalent.
As for the implied melee trait when fighting unarmed or 'not at range'... I don't think it's impossible :)
The Amulet of Mighty Fists conversation unearthed that the card was intented to be used with Sajan's DEX based combat rolls but the card reads something like "add to your STR or melee combat check", which has now been errata-ed.
Where other cards refer to a 'melee combat check' it's possible that this is an error and should either be changed to 'non-ranged', 'combat check', or 'combat check with the melee trait', or clarified to mean a 'melee-based check'.
@mostman79 - yes, most (all?) of the non-ranged weapons have the 'melee' trait. Which is why I wonder if the 'weapon without a card' (i.e. unarmed combat) should also have the melee trait.
Most of those are strength/melee check weapons though. I should have been more clear. Do we have one that has you roll something other than strength/melee but has the melee trait? This to me is the same thing as the Ranged/Dexterity question. - which lends itself to a yes answer. We need an official weigh in, however.
Here is what i think, if it's actually what we are talking about.
if your character does not have the melee skill, and you play a weapon that has the melee trait, then your check can be considered melee based, and the solider should be able to contribute the d4.
This is pretty much the same question I asked about the ranged trait and using the Archer with Lem and a Crossbow in the Trait Question thread.
It should work the same way here, if it doesn't we will have some serious complications with game mechanics..
if your character does not have the melee skill, and you play a weapon that has the melee trait, then your check can be considered melee based, and the soldier should be able to contribute the d4.
That is correct, for both the Soldier and the Snake.
Mike
I would say that once you choose your base skill in step 1 , then any boon's that can be legitimately played in step 3 add their traits to the check. The initial skill used add any sub types effectively they all become traits. So you can have a dexterity , strength check with Melee , magic, force etc all of which determine the nature of the attack/check.
Wait, Mike... come back! Please? Perhaps bringing Vic with you?
Are you saying that the answer to the original question is (b)?
What about unarmed combat? Can the soldier be used then?
@St@rM@n: I 100% agree with you. The original question is more about cases where you have not explicitly added the Melee trait (e.g. (a) using your Melee SKILL, (c) unarmed combat and (d) non-ranged combat).
Fundamentally, what counts as a Melee combat check?
a) A melee-skill based combat check (i.e. rolling your Melee die)
OR
b) A combat check with the "melee" trait (e.g. using a weapon with the melee trait)
I think both a and b count as melee based checks. If you have the melee skill and use it during a combat check, then it is melee based
If you do not have the melee skill, but play a weapon with the melee trait, then the combat check is melee based.
If you do not have the melee skill, and you make an unarmed combat check then you probably will use your strength die for the check.
For unarmed combat checks, the rulebook says to use your strength OR melee skill. I guess if you don't have the melee skill, you could still use the melee skill, but your die Would be a d4, and in that case you could then play an ally like the soldier since it is now melee based, so you would roll 2d4.
That's how I interpret your questions.
Wait, Mike... come back! Please? Perhaps bringing Vic with you?
Are you saying that the answer to the original question is (b)?
What about unarmed combat? Can the soldier be used then?
As far as I understand your question, a and b are both Melee checks.
Sajan and Lini would roll d4s on Melee checks, and the Soldier would give them another d4. They would likely be better off with a different ally, though.Mike
Thanks everyone, that's a real help :)
So, to summarise:
A melee combat check is BOTH
(a) a combat check where you use MELEE as your base skill
(b) a combat check which has the melee trait (e.g. from the use of a weapon)
Unarmed combat (using the STRENGTH skill) and non-ranged combat do not count as Melee combat checks.
I feel wiser and h4ppier in my wisdom.
Thank you!
This clears up a lot in regard to how traits interact with the check. A lot of these corner cases haven't come up in our campaign - but it's great to know. Thanks for the clarifications Mike.
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So what happens if I don't have any card in my hand that had the Melee trait?
Say Valeros has one card left in his hand, a Blessing of the Gods, uses it to explore and turns over a Bandit that requires an 8 combat check to defeat.
He now has nothing in his hand, which die does he roll for his combat check?
Does he roll a d4 because he has no cards to gain the Melee trait?
OR
Can he roll a d10+2 because he has Melee:Strength +2 skill?
I think I may be doing it wrong.
@RedXian
The check is a combat check, use your strength skill enhanced by
Melee, if it is a subtype/ secondary skill of the Strength Skill. With the current characters (including the add-on Deck) this is the only place it is present and it adds a bonus to the strength skill die roll.
The answer is :-
1. Role your Strength (+ melee if you have it)
2. Play a Boon (Weapon, Item,Spell etc) That allows you to use a more favourable skill for you character. This will effectively make a Combat based on a Skill other than strength. For example Arcane or Dexterity.
This will be followed by playing powers and Boons to add to the check but it will not change your base skill , this can only be done as the first step of a check.
Page 11
"Weapons and many other cards that can be used during combat generally tell you what skill to use when you attempt a combat check; if you don’t play such a card, use your Strength or Melee skill"
This may have been clearer if the last part had read ..
Strength skill increased by your melee skill, if present.
or
Strength skill.
As sub types are described elsewhere and mentioning melee here has confused many , as they are used to other games that define close combat as melee.
Definitions :-
Skills are characters inherent abilities any subtype to a skill can be selected when the primary skill it is listed on is required or the check names the subtype.
Traits are used to trigger restrictions or enhancements to a check as defined by a Scenario, Location,Power, Bane or Boon . The skills and their sub types are also traits in this context.
It is fundamental to select your base skill for the check , which remains for the whole check do not confuse this with a trait.
For a combat check, if you have no weapons you can always choose to use either your STRENGTH or MELEE skill. Not everybody has MELEE on their cards, so they usually just get a choice of their printed STRENGTH or 1d4 in place of a non-printed MELEE skill.
Valeros has the MELEE skill, rated at "STR + 2" so he uses "1d10 + 2" for combat, even without a weapon. Since he's using the MELEE skill, the check has the Melee trait and other cards and powers that interact with Melee and/or Combat checks can also be played.
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Thanks everyone, that's a real help :)
So, to summarise:
A melee combat check is BOTH
(a) a combat check where you use MELEE as your base skill
(b) a combat check which has the melee trait (e.g. from the use of a weapon)
Unarmed combat (using the STRENGTH skill) and non-ranged combat do not count as Melee combat checks.
I feel wiser and h4ppier in my wisdom.
Thank you!
A Ranged Combat Check uses DEX and the Ranged Skill.
But what type of Combat Check is Seoni making when she uses her Power or casts a spell.
Her power adds the trait ATTACK to her combat check is is it an Arcane Combat Check, Melee Combat Check, Attack Combat Check, or just a plain vanilla Combat Check?
Can she use the Grizzled Mercenary (if that's the name) which adds 1d6 to a Combat Check? Can she use a snake or solider (guessing not).
For Seoni and her power it's a combat check and it counts as playing a spell
It's based on her arcane skill, which is part of her charisma skill.
It also has the attack, fire, and magic traits.
So, you could play a card that adds a die to:
1. A combat check
2. Playing a spell
3. A charisma check ( it would have to be based on combat though, or just say charisma check. and i have not seen that yet)
4. An attack check (have not seen it)
5. A fire check (have not seen it)
6. A magic check (I think this exists)
7. A check (like BotG)
I think those are all the options.
So, it's a combat check, with all the additional skills/traits further defining the nature of the check.
Another example of why having a library of cards in front of me would help. Without knowing the text on the soldier card, I'm not sure why he wouldn't help Sajan much. Unless he states "+1d4 to a STR based combat check". But if the ruling is Sajan can't benefit from adds to melee (because he uses Dex, not melee), then that would be a Big Thing. Presumably Sajan couldn't benefit from Valeros either (though I can't remember quite how Val's add is worded). So what allies would help - ranged adds won't help either, of course. Darn being at work with no access to the source materials.
@RDewsbery:
The Soldier adds to a "Melee Combat check", which is why this wouldn't work for an unarmed Sajan or Lini, since their combat checks are just STR or DEX combat checks (without the Melee trait).
From what I understand, an unarmed player CANNOT benefit from boons/powers that add to Melee checks. This includes Sajan using DEX instead of STR for combat. (His power would need to be reworded as "Use DEX in place of STR for a combat check and add the Melee trait" for this to change.)
IIRC, Valeros adds to a "Combat check" so he DOES help Sajan.
In summary, when Sajan uses his power for a combat check, the check:
- is DEX based
- has the dexterity trait
- has the combat trait
It does NOT have the Melee trait.
So any powers/boons that work on "checks", "combat checks" or "dexterity checks" or otherwise boost DEX would be useful.
@tssfulk:
If I remember the cards you mentioned correctly, they all interact with a "Melee combat check" so none of them are any use to Seoni when she uses her power.
If any of them work on a "combat check" (possibly the Grizzled Merc??) then they could be used. It's the 'melee' bit that Seoni is missing.
(I just realised it's also something that Lini is missing when she uses bear strength for combat, so the snake's power is fairly useless for her...)
(I just realised it's also something that Lini is missing when she uses bear strength for combat, so the snake's power is fairly useless for her...)
I had that realization awhile back and was disappointed, but she can still use the snake when she is unarmed, since her strength die is d4 it's the same as her untrained melee skill. So, she could roll 2 d4, but it is still it does not work with bear strength.
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I'm pretty sure that Mike just mentioned that if you use a card that states it adds to the Melee or Ranged combat check, then that trait is added to the check. I know he referenced the Archer giving someone the Ranged trait. So since the Snake gives her the Melee trait, she should be able to use the improved STR die from her 'bear' ability.
Don't quote me on that, I just am sure I saw it either on these boards or the BGG boards.
I'm pretty sure that Mike just mentioned that if you use a card that states it adds to the Melee or Ranged combat check, then that trait is added to the check. I know he referenced the Archer giving someone the Ranged trait. So since the Snake gives her the Melee trait, she should be able to use the improved STR die from her 'bear' ability.
Don't quote me on that, I just am sure I saw it either on these boards or the BGG boards.
I'm not to sure about that.
I think the example your using relates to a character with out ranged, and if they use a crossbow it will give the check the ranged trait, so then the archer could be used.
If Lini used a weapon that gave her the Melee trait, then she would be able to use bear strength and the snake, but without a weapon card giving here the melee trait she will only be able to use her untrained Melee skill d4 with the Snake.
Correct?
Snake is add a d4 to a melee based combat check.
So, unless you were rolling melee to fight unarmed, or played a card that made your check melee, you couldn't play it.
This is why I was asking if there was a card that added melee but was played on a dexterity check. Hypothetical example:
Sajan. Rolling dexterity for an unarmed combat check. Plays the following card:
Item: "For your dexterity check add 1d10+1". Traits: Melee.
I think if that card existed, you could play that, which would give you melee, and then you could play the Snake. But I don't think you could just put a Snake with Sajan otherwise.
@Tracker1 and @mostman79 - yes, I think you're right.
@TClifford - if you could play the snake then, yes, it would add its traits to the check. But the only legal way to play it is to "add 1d4 to a melee combat check" which means you ALREADY have to have melee in the check (which it's possible to gain in various ways but is not there if you just play Lini + Bear strength).
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I would have to look at the card, but I could have sworn that the Archer has almost the same verbiage for Ranged attack, and I saw a thread where Mike said that give the check the Ranged Trait.
If that isn't right, just do what I do, have Amiri give her a sword or something and watch her tear things up.
Example: Reveal Snake [+1d4], Reveal Longsword [which I think is a +1d8], discard/recharge Snake [+ 1d4], discard another card [change STR to 1d10]. She is now rolling 1d10 + 1d8 + 2d4 = 15.5 average for a recharge and discard. Not bad for a non-fighter. I'll take it.
Lini's my favourite character so far so you're preaching to the converted ;)
If you can find a link to the post where Mike talks about this that would be great.
If you can find a link to the post where Mike talks about this that would be great.
Is this the one? It's from a while back (Aug 22), but I think it's the one TClifford is talking about.
What Mike says there is:
"Cards give their traits to checks using them*, so any character using a weapon with the Ranged trait is making a Ranged combat check. Lem doesn't have a Ranged die, so he doesn't get a Ranged bonus to his Dexterity check. But he does get to use his Dexterity die and the Archer's power."
To me this means:
If Lem is using a weapon with a Ranged trait then he gets to use his Dex die for the roll. Lem has no 'Ranged' die so gets no natural bonus to the check (which is now a "Dex-based combat check" with the Ranged trait from the bow). Since the check has the Ranged trait he can use the Archer's power to add to the check.
Let me know if you've interpreted this some other way!
The Soldier adds to a "Melee Combat check", which is why this wouldn't work for an unarmed Sajan or Lini, since their combat checks are just STR or DEX combat checks (without the Melee trait).
From what I understand, an unarmed player CANNOT benefit from boons/powers that add to Melee checks. This includes Sajan using DEX instead of STR for combat.
Call me stupid but I'd rather presumed (there being little in the manual to help with this, like a glossary) that there are two types of combat - melee (where you hit things up close) and ranged (where you're not so close). Melee combat might be from using a melee skill or trait, or simply strength (in the absence of a melee skill). And in Sajan's case, hitting people with his dextrous fists. If Sajan isn't in melee, and he surely isn't fighting with the ranged trait, then his combat is Some Other Type (also not in the glossary - or my dictionary, for that matter). FWIW, I have no idea what unintended consequences there might be for saying that Sajan's combat is - or is not - melee, but I bet there are a few.
Call me stupid but I'd rather presumed (there being little in the manual to help with this, like a glossary) that there are two types of combat - melee (where you hit things up close) and ranged (where you're not so close). Melee combat might be from using a melee skill or trait, or simply strength (in the absence of a melee skill). And in Sajan's case, hitting people with his dextrous fists. If Sajan isn't in melee, and he surely isn't fighting with the ranged trait, then his combat is Some Other Type (also not in the glossary - or my dictionary, for that matter). FWIW, I have no idea what unintended consequences there might be for saying that Sajan's combat is - or is not - melee, but I bet there are a few.
A combat check becomes a Melee check when you use your character's Melee skill and/or use a card/power with the Melee trait listed on it.
A combat check becomes a Ranged check when you use your character's Ranged skill and/or use a card/power with the Ranged trait listed on it.
A combat check can be neither Ranged nor Melee if none of the conditions above are satisfied.
A combat check can be BOTH a Ranged and Melee check if the conditions for both are satisfied.
It's a little counter-intuitive, but I believe there is no distinction between Ranged and Melee like you've described.
Yeah - don't assume it's melee or ranged. That's not how it works. At all.
For example, you might cast a spell for your check and then your combat check is Arcane. It's neither ranged or melee.
@RDewsbury - That was kind of the point of this thread!
I also thought that "Melee combat checks" were "non-ranged combat checks" but this is not the case.
I say this because, in his replies, Mike gave no indication that options (c) or (d) in my original post were valid.
As such we should stick to checks only having traits explicitly added to them from their base skills and the powers/boons played that affect the check.
P.S. I find it kind of funny that there are more posts in this thread after I thought Mike settled the matter than there were before!
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@tssfulk:
If I remember the cards you mentioned correctly, they all interact with a "Melee combat check" so none of them are any use to Seoni when she uses her power.
If any of them work on a "combat check" (possibly the Grizzled Merc??) then they could be used. It's the 'melee' bit that Seoni is missing.
(I just realised it's also something that Lini is missing when she uses bear strength for combat, so the snake's power is fairly useless for her...)
Grizzled Merc add to vanilla "Combat Check," so Seoni keeps him in her entourage. However, I almost never use him to explore, since he takes what he finds there. :-(
Well, this thread saved me from posting a new one.
Looks like my choice to keep the Soldier in Sajan's deck was ill-advised. :-(
It is logical that Sajan fighting with his fists to attack something (using his Dex d10) is melee in a literal sense. But the more figurative rules which I'm sure were written to provide play balance and avoid exploits prevents me from using the Soldier because his power (using his fists) has no "Melee" trait. Boo!
Question then.
can Valeros use his Melee check if he isn't using a weapon that says use Melee?
I mean, if he is unarmed can he use Melee die or is he stuck with strength only?
Looking in the instructions to see if I missed anything.
Yes. He can use Melee in armed combat.
Determine Which Die You're Using....Most monsters and some barriers call for a combat check. Weapons and many other cards that can be used during combat generally tell you what skill to use when you attempt a combat check; if you don’t play such a card, use your Strength or Melee skill.
Anyone without a card to play or power to use can use Strength or Melee for their combat check. Technically, anyone could use Melee. If Melee wasn't listed as one of their skills, they could roll a 1d4 for their Melee.
So Melee is always available in unaided combat.