I'm trying to figure out how to get a grapple attempt without proviking an attack of opportunity vs a target that is not flat-footed and came by a situation that poses a bit of a rules question. Consider this:
the combat occurs in a tight 2-square-wide corridor, my character stands right in front of mr. Enemy, gets hit and pretends to get knocked out. mr. Enemy is supposedly a good guy (boo) and there's the rest of the party further in front so he'll probably just move over to them leaving the (fakely) unconscious character behind him. Now the character stands up and attempts to grapple mr. Enemy from behind.
Question is how to treat this? normally being on separate sides of an opponents only counts as flanking - he's still supposedly fully aware of enemies on both sides.
-Should he become aware of my character standing up?
-suppose he doesn't look behind him - does he still get an AoO against my characters grapple?
-does he count as flat-footed against my charater?
-I assume I need to pass an opposed bluff test to fool mr. Enemy, do I get any bonus (or does he get any penalty) because of the heat of battle?
-should/can I be making some stealth checks after the bluff?
-Should he become aware of my character standing up?
There is no facing in pathfinder, if you are visible, yes
-suppose he doesn't look behind him - does he still get an AoO against my characters grapple?
yes, there is no "behind" in combat, the rules are an abstraction
-does he count as flat-footed against my charater?
only if you used bluff as a feint (a fainting feint?)
-I assume I need to pass an opposed bluff test to fool mr. Enemy, do I get any bonus (or does he get any penalty) because of the heat of battle?
the heat of battle is a presumed condition to all bluff checks in combat, no additional modifiers
-should/can I be making some stealth checks after the bluff?
not applicable when you are in plain sight
I would say, first you would need a successful bluff check to fake unconcious. Assuming you succeeded at that you would have to use a move action to stand up from prone, provoking an AoO to do so. There is no facing in Pathfinder, so there is no concern of "behind" his back. And he see you unless you make some stealth check for him not to see you. When you attempt to grapple you provoke another attack of opporunity. He will need combat reflexes in order to take the second AoO, but he may possess it. In either event you provoke in case any other enemies are present.
So:
-Should he become aware of my character standing up? Yes
-suppose he doesn't look behind him - does he still get an AoO against my characters grapple? No facing, yes
-does he count as flat-footed against my charater? Flat-footed, no. But you may be flanking him with your ally
-I assume I need to pass an opposed bluff test to fool mr. Enemy, do I get any bonus (or does he get any penalty) because of the heat of battle? No you do not
-should/can I be making some stealth checks after the bluff If you have some sort of concealment from him you could attempt to stealth from him. This would make him unaware. Of course, if the unconcious guy suddenly disappears he might now be aware you were not unconcious though he would still be unaware of your location. Remember though, you would need some sort of concealment to make a stealth check in the first place.
Just as a reminder that in Pathfinder a successful strike with an attack of opportunity by a foe that you are attempting to grapple (and you do not have Improved Grapple) does not negate the grapple as it did in 3.5.
Nothing was more annoying than trying to grapple a foe and them hitting you and then you do not get to grapple and you have the damage to boot!
Otherwise, the above answers are spot on regarding this.
Edit: PS A successful Bluff check to feint in combat does NOT make the opponent flat-footed. It only denies them their dexterity to AC for the next strike by you against them.
Hendelbolaf, it may not automatically negate the grapple, but any damage you take from the AoO does apply as a penalty to your maneuver attempt. Often that means it does effectively "negate" it.
Oh yeah, I am aware of that for all combat maneuvers, but I was just stating that it was no longer automatic. Sure, if I try and grapple the bear or fighter, then I am just asking for it. However, the wizard with the little dagger in his hand may not be enough to make me fail the check, etc.
Also, an adendum to Hendelbolaf's statement about grapples being negated by damage in 3.5. He is correct that taking damage does not completely interupt the grapple attempt. However,
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.
So, you do not fail automatically if hit by the AoO, however you do apply a penalty to your roll equal to the damage you sustained. At higher levels it almost equates to automatic failure as the amount of damage you will sustain will often be enough to reduce you chance of success to 0. This is why it is important to invest in the Improved (Insert Combat Maneuver here) feats.
Edit: Ninja'd
The easiest way to negate an AoO on a grapple attempt is Improved Grapple.
If you're the GM and this is an NPC, you can ignore any prerequisites and fiat that the character has that feat.
No I'm not the GM, we're running through Way of the Wicked with just one character capable of doing and taking any serious damage that's just had like half of his constitution drained, the rest of the party is a naked ranger with just a bow, standing like a square away from mr. Enemy, a wizard with no damage spells part for acid plash and a buffer bard, all level 2 and mr. Enemy just jumped out on us with nowhere to run..and he's a 4 or 5th level paladin with better equipment.
We've tried to slam a door back at him and lock him up, but the GM decided to be a..nnoying and worked some weird magic on the door that unlocked it back and didn't even let me hold the door shut by force.
At this point we had to break the session and now I'll just be yelling at him that "no I'm not evil yet!" else I'll get one-shot with the buggers smite and if he gets past me the others don't stand much chance with little to no armor and str 8 each, the pally most likely already has his sick bonus to all saves so any manipulation spells from the wizard and bard might as well go for a cup of tea. Still have my strength and dex high so was wondering if I could get the pally weakened with maneuvers somehow..guessing my best bet is to lure him into the ranger in hopes he'll waste his AoO on the poor chap and doesn't kill him in one turn with that smite
You all can probably win the fight, but its unlikely everyone will remain concious/alive.
The ranger should be kiting the paladin, assuming he can hit him. At level 2 the lack of magical items versus a paladin in full plate will make it hard to hit him.
In regards to the locked door part...that seems suspicious. Though, it would be rather anticlimatic to win the scenario by shutting a door. In regards to holding the door shut, that should have been an opposed strength check to determine who won. Without knowing anything about your character, it is reasonable that the paladin could win. But if the GM just made it happen without evening rolling then it's heavy handed.
You are right that at level 2 the paladin has his Divine Grace that adds his charisma to his saves, but he doesn't have immunity to charms and compulsions until high levels.
A Knock spell can open a jammed or stuck door, so I suspect that's what the GM was doing.
Now, even with the door open, you can still block the enemies from getting through. Just stand in the door, fighting defensively, and let your ranged characters fire past you. The pally will either have to Bull Rush or Overrun you to get past, both of which provoke an attack of opportunity.
The other option is to pair up and use Aid Another to help each other hit, but this only works if you have more than one melee fighter. You only have to hit a 10 to give your ally +2 to hit or +2 AC. If you get into flanking, your ally can get a total of +4 to hit. Anyone who can reach the opponent can perform the aid action. We did that in Runelords with our cleric blocking the door and the fighter standing behind him with a reach weapon aiding his AC. They held off the bad guys for over 10 rounds while the rest of the party caught up and got in position.
A Knock spell can open a jammed or stuck door, so I suspect that's what the GM was doing.
Now, even with the door open, you can still block the enemies from getting through. Just stand in the door, fighting defensively, and let your ranged characters fire past you. The pally will either have to Bull Rush or Overrun you to get past, both of which provoke an attack of opportunity.
The other option is to pair up and use Aid Another to help each other hit, but this only works if you have more than one melee fighter. You only have to hit a 10 to give your ally +2 to hit or +2 AC. If you get into flanking, your ally can get a total of +4 to hit. Anyone who can reach the opponent can perform the aid action. We did that in Runelords with our cleric blocking the door and the fighter standing behind him with a reach weapon aiding his AC. They held off the bad guys for over 10 rounds while the rest of the party caught up and got in position.
Yes, but in what reasonable way does a paladin have access to knock? He just happens to have UMD as a paladin, and just happens to have that specific second level wizard/sorcerer spell as a scroll on his person? Awfully convenient.
|
It's already been covered a lot in here, but here's my 2 cents, which involves the words "house rules" a lot.
This would be treated as a feint, so you would be rolling bluff against either 10 + your opponent's Base Attack Bonus + Wisdom, or 10 + your opponent's sense motive modifier. If you fool them, you are prone, but they believe you to be unconcious. I would probably also give the opponent a circumstance bonus if you still had high HP for you still looking healthy (if they scratched you for 1 HP and you had 90% of your HP left, you're not exactly a bloody mess). This would probably only work once per combat too, to avoid having players do nothing but claim to be unconcious. Worst case, an intelligent monster would simply "make sure" the second time around, and swing the axe one more time on the prone "dead" opponent.
That said, this is also allowing an action out of sequence in exchange for an escape. The balancing factor is that you're prone...which works for a while before not being much of a balancing factor at all to the full BAB classes. This type of ability might make for an interesting feat, but isn't core rules right now. So in the end, you probably just end up prone and might be able to trick the opponent into thinking you're unconcious, but nothing more.
House ruling it, they would probably be surprised enough to not swing when you get up, but then be aware of you and be able to hit you. There is nothing stopping you from grappling while prone, though you would have a -4 penalty on the roll (prone says -4 on attack rolls, and combat manuvers call for "an attack roll" in da rules). Unless it was a particularly dexy character, you would likely be taking the bigger penalty. Moreover, if they had uncanny dodge, you would just have a -4 penalty and they wouldn't lose dex.