Familiars and druids

[OksebShogun]

ok say a druid takes the feat to have acess to a familiar according to this rule 'During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal' is a familar considered a combat animal?

[Sior]

Keep reading that FAQ.

Quote:

In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

So animal companion and familiar, fine. Animal companion and eidolon, no, one or the other.

[Andreas Forster]

But remember that you are allowed to have both an animal companion and an eidolon, but may not use both at the same time. You'd have to choose one of them every scenario.

If you actually use your familiar as a combat animal (which might not be wise unless you build it for that purpose), your GM has the right to not allow any other combat animals for you. (Because in that case, the familiar is also the combat animal.)

In short: You may only have one of your animals/animal-like creatures participate in combat, and you shouldn't have too many creatures in total, so the game won't be slowed down by your little zoo ;)

[Tik, Brevick's Familiar]

"I can take more hits than some front-line fighters!!"

[The Morphling]

Would someone mind linking to the FAQ in question?

[DesolateHarmony]

PFS animal FAQ

[lastblacknight]

Andreas Foster wrote:

But remember that you are allowed to have both an animal companion and an eidolon, but may not use both at the same time. You'd have to choose one of them every scenario.

Taken from the FAQ

"...During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all. If you have so many noncombat animals that their presence is slowing a session down, the GM has the right to ask you to select one noncombat animal and leave the rest behind. A summoner's eidolon is considered an animal companion for the purposes of counting combat and noncombat animals. If you have more than one class-granted animal companion (or eidolon), you must choose which will be considered the combat animal at the start of the scenario. In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive..."

So you can have both a familiar and an animal companion the game but can use only one of them in combat and you need to let your GM know at the beginning of the session which one is which.

[The Morphling]

Quote:

In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

You can use a familiar and an animal companion. You just can't use an animal companion and an eidolon.

[Orfamay Quest]

The Morphling wrote:

Quote:

In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

You can use a familiar and an animal companion. You just can't use an animal companion and an eidolon.

By my reading, you can only have a non-combat familiar if you have an AC. ("During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all.")

That's not normally an issue, because most familiars are non-combat; putting your CR 1/8 bat into combat sounds like an easy way to get him turned into paté. The rules simply formalize that if you're using a wolf companion as a flank buddy, you are not allowed to use your bat as a spell platform or a splash weapon delivery system.

[The Morphling]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

The Morphling wrote:

Quote:

In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

You can use a familiar and an animal companion. You just can't use an animal companion and an eidolon.

By my reading, you can only have a non-combat familiar if you have an AC. ("During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all.")

That's not normally an issue, because most familiars are non-combat; putting your CR 1/8 bat into combat sounds like an easy way to get him turned into paté. The rules simply formalize that if you're using a wolf companion as a flank buddy, you are not allowed to use your bat as a spell platform or a splash weapon delivery system.

Well the words don't say that, so... no. The familiar is specifically called out as being acceptable to combine with the animal companion. Non-Combat animals are like a dog you bought for 10g at the market (or however much they cost). The FAQ is there to prevent someone from buying six Combat-Trained Tigers and soloing a Tier 3-4 module.

You may have:
1 mount
1 familiar OR mundane pet
1 animal companion OR eidolon

Three total. The FAQ spells this out.

[Nefreet]

But only 1 may partake in combat.

[The Morphling]

I can only quote the same rules text so many times before it burns a hole through my keyboard, so I'll stop.

[Nefreet]

Just clarifying for anyone else who might misinterpret what you wrote.

[Orfamay Quest]

The Morphling wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

The Morphling wrote:

Quote:

In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

You can use a familiar and an animal companion. You just can't use an animal companion and an eidolon.

By my reading, you can only have a non-combat familiar if you have an AC. ("During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all.")

That's not normally an issue, because most familiars are non-combat; putting your CR 1/8 bat into combat sounds like an easy way to get him turned into paté. The rules simply formalize that if you're using a wolf companion as a flank buddy, you are not allowed to use your bat as a spell platform or a splash weapon delivery system.

Well the words don't say that, so... no.

Actually, they do.

"During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all."

You get one (ONE, one, 1) combat animal that may participate in combat.

Quote:

The familiar is specifically called out as being acceptable to combine with the animal companion.

Only as long as either it or the animal companion does not participate in combat. Because you may have one combat animal and the rest cannot participate in combat at all.

[nosig]

so wait, this means that as long as I buy a small "guard" dog, my witches familiar is safe from being harmed in combat? "... cannot participate in combat at all. "

somehow this doesn't seem to be the intent of this...

[Orfamay Quest]

nosig wrote:

so wait, this means that as long as I buy a small "guard" dog, my witches familiar is safe from being harmed in combat? "... cannot participate in combat at all. "

somehow this doesn't seem to be the intent of this...

Alternatively, it means that your witch's familiar can't even attack in self-defense.

I suspect that in most PFS scenarios, familiars and pack animals aren't targeted unless they do something to draw attention to themselves. I don't know of any Pathfinder-authored encounters that specifically use the target-the-familiar tactic.

This doesn't necessarily mean that they can't die from, for example, splash weapons and area-effect spells.

[nosig]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

nosig wrote:

so wait, this means that as long as I buy a small "guard" dog, my witches familiar is safe from being harmed in combat? "... cannot participate in combat at all. "

somehow this doesn't seem to be the intent of this...

Alternatively, it means that your witch's familiar can't even attack in self-defense.

I suspect that in most PFS scenarios, familiars and pack animals aren't targeted unless they do something to draw attention to themselves. I don't know of any Pathfinder-authored encounters that specifically use the target-the-familiar tactic.

This doesn't necessarily mean that they can't die from, for example, splash weapons and area-effect spells.

this is very much YMMV - as I have encountered one judge who seemed to target Witches Familiars... kill the Familiar, loose the "spell book"

[Tony Lindman]

nosig wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

nosig wrote:

so wait, this means that as long as I buy a small "guard" dog, my witches familiar is safe from being harmed in combat? "... cannot participate in combat at all. "

somehow this doesn't seem to be the intent of this...

Alternatively, it means that your witch's familiar can't even attack in self-defense.

I suspect that in most PFS scenarios, familiars and pack animals aren't targeted unless they do something to draw attention to themselves. I don't know of any Pathfinder-authored encounters that specifically use the target-the-familiar tactic.

This doesn't necessarily mean that they can't die from, for example, splash weapons and area-effect spells.

this is very much YMMV - as I have encountered one judge who seemed to target Witches Familiars... kill the Familiar, loose the "spell book"

I would be curious to know what creature's tactics and knowledge of the players combined to make that a reasonable choice.

[lastblacknight]

The Morphling wrote:

Quote:

In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

You can use a familiar and an animal companion. You just can't use an animal companion and an eidolon.

No, You could theoretically have all three but only one could participate in combat as decided at the beginning of the module/scenario.

Taken from the FAQ

"...During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all. If you have so many noncombat animals that their presence is slowing a session down, the GM has the right to ask you to select one noncombat animal and leave the rest behind. A summoner's eidolon is considered an animal companion for the purposes of counting combat and noncombat animals. If you have more than one class-granted animal companion (or eidolon), you must choose which will be considered the combat animal at the start of the scenario. In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive..."
So you can have both a familiar and an animal companion the game but can use only one of them in combat and you need to let your GM know at the beginning of the session which one is which.

[Nefreet]

I'm pretty sure Morphling knows it's only one critter per scenario, she's just wording it in a weird way.

[The Morphling]

I decided to come back to clarify my stance on this issue. I am of the opinion that the ruling clearly indicates that familiars are not considered "combat animals." My final word on the matter is that the last sentence spells out that you may utilize three creatures in combat. One is a mount. The second is a familiar/pet. The final one is a class-granted animal/eidolon.

Familiars are never mentioned earlier in the paragraph. They are specifically called out as an exception in the final sentence, and it very clearly says you may have all three. It is not saying "you may bring only these but not use them," since earlier it says you may have "as many noncombat animals as you like."

So, we are left with the following:
1. The FAQ says you may bring as many noncombat animals as you like (unless the individual GM vetoes this).
2. The FAQ gives us a list of what is "acceptable," and clearly indicates you may have "a familiar or mundane pet and your class-granted animal."
3. If the FAQ was intended to declare that a familiar counted as a class-granted animal and conflicted with an eidolon or animal companion, it would not specifically call out that a familiar and a class animal are allowed. The FAQ already stated in the first sentence that an unlimited number of noncombat animals were perfectly fine unless the GM specifically stepped in to reduce disruption.

However, I am unwilling to continue debating the issue further than this final post, as my point has been clearly made and anything further is just repeating opposing opinions and highlighting different sections of the rules. I only came back to make sure it was clear what my opinion of the FAQ was. No hard feelings for those who disagree with me, but I did want to make it clear what my stance was on the issue.

[Nefreet]

The Morphling wrote:

My final word on the matter is that the last sentence spells out that you may utilize three creatures in combat. One is a mount. The second is a familiar/pet. The final one is a class-granted animal/eidolon.

I see the confusion, now. Your interpretation is incorrect. You may bring all three of those critters to a session (plus a herd of goats, if you wished), but having all 3 partake in combat would be a violation of this rule:

"During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal"

So, since your last post was your "final word", I'm happy to have cleared that up for you =).

[BigNorseWolf]

I believe the confusion is over whether or not a familiar qualifies as a combat animal. Most familiars take up residence in the wizards trousers and are nary seen for 15 levels outside of their skill bonuses. A rare few either through unusual builds or sheer desperation manage to be combat animals.

[Nefreet]

A Familiar would be designated as a "Combat Animal" if it participates in Combat (seems pretty straight forward to me).

My Magus uses his Familiar in Combat quite frequently, my Witch does not.

Although they are both classified as "Familiars", one is a "Combat Animal", and the other is not.

The confusion may stem from trying to classify Familiars as an "all or nothing" type, which does not work in this instance.

[Matthew Morris]

Just to add to the fun... Does Fangwood keep allow you to have two?

[Nefreet]

Haha, never noticed that little line on the Chronicle Sheet before. I just used the boon for its other benefits.

It wouldn't increase the number of Combat critters, no.

[nosig]

please define "partake in combat"

does this include a familiar providing bonuses that the PC uses in combat? anything from providing an Initiative bonus to providing a flanker?

does this include taking damage and/or attacks that would normally be directed at your PC or another, but is directed at the "non-combat" creature instead?

does this include "standing watch" and alerting a sleeping PC? Is it possible to use a familiar to stand watch, intending to have it wake up a PC - and still have a riding dog to provide a PC with faster movement?

If, during an earlier encounter, the one "combat animal" is lost, can a second one take it's place? Can this happen inside of one combat? (For example: you have one riding dog "shot out from under you" and you mount the one you have been using as a pack animal.)

[BigNorseWolf]

"What is a Tigweasel?

"Well I'm a druid wizard.

"Yeah.. ok...?

"Have you ever heard of turducken?

[Onikokoro Vallaway]

Texting from abroken phone so sorry before hand.

1. Ok so I have improved familiar its a imp not a animal anymore is it a "combat animal" still?

2. I'm a witch I use my familiar to go steal a item from the boss. It gets caught. He starts int I have animal companion is the familiar stuck in place, can he run, does h blink from existance, and can the familiar even be targeted?

[Nefreet]

If you use it for combat, it's a "combat animal".

This doesn't change whether your Familiar is an Animal, Vermin, Magical Beast, or Outsider.

[Onikokoro Vallaway]

Where does it say that "combat animal" are not only animals? it doesn't say anywhere that "combat animal" Include outsiders. If fact a outsider (eidolan) was specifiaclly added to the list if it was the case that outsiders count as a combat animals or even animals. They would not need to target edilons at all

And if everything is a "combat animal" if I'm a cleric with animal is the controlled creature ( command undead, dominate person, ect) count as combat animal. And. Since. I chose my AC at the beginning are they not allowed to be used?

With that in mind is a dominated animal allowed to be used in the combat or is he also not allowed?

[Nefreet]

Those are spell effects, and operate differently.

This really isn't difficult. Some people are just overthinking it.

When you sit down at the table, how many minis do you break out? If the answer is greater than 2, you have too many.

[Onikokoro Vallaway]

Its thought about to much because the ruling is confusing to builds that use multible animals.

By faq I have a AC eidolon and a familiar and a mount I must select as rule at the begining either my "animal companion or eidolon" no option for familiar or mount. Unless a familiar is counted as a animal companion... but they would say that

So I pick my AC as combat animal my eidolon is still there but not used in combat. Now I may use my familiar or my mount not both (generally) I pick my familiar.

Now does tis familiar count as a combat animal that isn't answered here. People assume because familiars have the shape of animals. But nothing there says that it is

The biggest issue is you can read it 2 different ways every time I read it it switches between your 100% right then I read it again then I'm 80% right and it keeps switching back and forth :/

[Kobold Catgirl]

The weird bit is that a mount, while not attacking, can still affect your attacks for mounted combat. Would that count as a combat animal? I'm thinking yes--the "mount" referenced in the FAQ is likely a purely transportation beast.

Quote:

During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all. If you have so many noncombat animals that their presence is slowing a session down, the GM has the right to ask you to select one noncombat animal and leave the rest behind. A summoner's eidolon is considered an animal companion for the purposes of counting combat and noncombat animals. If you have more than one class-granted animal companion (or eidolon), you must choose which will be considered the combat animal at the start of the scenario. In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

So you get one animal in combat, no matter what. That can't be disputed.

There is no firm limit on noncombat animals, but you are encouraged to use common sense and not slow things down.

The recommended number of noncombat creatures is: One (noncombat) mount and one familiar/pet. However, there is no firm rule, so it's up to your GM.

[kinevon]

The ruling is there because too many combatants under one player's control frequently slows down combat, and can reduce/remove the other players' enjoyment of the game.

If you flood a small area with extra combatants, so that your turn takes an extremely long time, and the other players cannot do anything in combat because there is no room for them to participate, you have too many NPC combatants under your control.

Spamming Summons, too many ACs/familiars/Eidolons/Mounts under one person's control, and you are cutting into other people's options and time to play the game.

At some point, no matter how "good" you are at controlling all these extra combatants, you make it difficult for other players, and possibly even the GM, to enjoy playing the game.

If the melee specialist doesn't have room to get to an enemy...
If the archer cannot see the enemy for all the summoned creatures around it...
If the blaster caster cannot blast the target because it is surrounded by nominal allies...
If the charging build doesn't have a charge lane...

That is why this rule is in effect.

Even with the rule, it is possible, though thankfully rare, to have 14 sets fo actions on the PC side of the coin, what with a 7 player table with 7 "combat animals" possible. With that lineup, the enemy may never get an action at all before it is dead...

And the GM isn't there to run a shooting gallery, he is there to tell a story. Part of his story is to have the NPCs under his control do or say certain things during combat, sometimes.