Startin book 4 of shattered star AP. 4 man crew all lvl 10.
Team is ranger,alchie, archeologist bard, mystic theurge, lvl8 rage prophet hench for bard.
Ranger is melee beast and alchie cleans up rest. Hench keeps strays off weak guys.
Problem 1: bard is halfling whip master. Sounded fun for style but contributes nothin for combat. How to salvage him? Have to keep due to Plot and storyline. Awesome skill monkey and out of combat everything tho.
Problem 2: mystic theurge SUCKS! Alchie helps more with potions than this guy. GM allowing replacement. Lvl 10, 25 pt buy, 45k in gear from party fund. Suggestions? Was thinkin witch for same style but removed the suck. Other ideas??? All help appreciated.
#1 - he's contributing, isn't he? He has buff spells, bardic performance? Then he's doing what bards are meant to do: make everyone else better at what they do.
#2 - yes, it does, but you can make it work better with a few traits. Witch is a good replacement, I will agree.
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2. Mystic Theurge can be awesome, given the correct build. If the GM allows a full rebuild try something along these lines:
- Use spell-like abilities to qualify for early entry. There are numerous threads on here that will help you find the options that qualify.
- Choose either cleric or wizard as your primary class and build like you would for that class. Get as high in the primary stat as possible, with the other class's stat as secondary (you need to be 16 in secondary stat by level 13, including from items). Make sure to pick up Magical Knack for the primary caster.
At level 10, your new Mystic Theurge will cast as a level 9 Wizard, and a level 8 Cleric (or reverse that if Cleric focused). He'll gain spell access on the same level as a Sorcerer or Oracle for his primary class and only 1 level behind for the secondary. This build ends with 9th level spells in the primary caster and 6th in the secondary. Alternatively, you could split the classes more evenly, but you will definitely lose power (something you're seeing now).
Problem 1: bard is halfling whip master. Sounded fun for style but contributes nothin for combat. How to salvage him? Have to keep due to Plot and storyline. Awesome skill monkey and out of combat everything tho.
GM allowed leadership; I fail to see a problem.
Problem 2: mystic theurge SUCKS! Alchie helps more with potions than this guy. GM allowing replacement. Lvl 10, 25 pt buy, 45k in gear from party fund. Suggestions? Was thinkin witch for same style but removed the suck. Other ideas??? All help appreciated.
You're getting over the "valley of suck" so the Mystic Theurge does get better beyond this point. Witch would work well, rebuilding to make use of early entry into Mystic Theurge also works. Really, any single-class primary caster would be fine.
#1 - he's contributing, isn't he? He has buff spells, bardic performance? Then he's doing what bards are meant to do: make everyone else better at what they do.
Archeologist don't get bard songs, their thief light. Spells were geared for charm and cure. We keep seeing golems and outsiders and caster. All high wills. Could change to more buffs. Other ideas? And yeah I got leadership. Mostly as a crutch to fix bigger issues. Since it's just me and GM would like to ditch hench so only juggling 4 characters solo.
#2 - yes, it does, but you can make it work better with a few traits. Witch is a good replacement, I will agree.
I grabbed all the tweaks (magic trait, orange ioun stone,etc) but 3/3/4 split hurts! Did not know about early entry option. He is deep gnome so that's easy fix if allowed rebuild instead of total replacement. That alone will fix major portion of issues. Rebuild would be better than scrapping toon.
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I don't see the problem, either. Sure, the Halfling whip-master isn't very useful in combat, but the Barbarian makes up for it. Too bad he chose an archetype that loses Bardic Performance, as that's exactly what your group needs. It sounds like the halfling more than pulls his own weight outside of combat, which is important.
It sounds like the group's main problem is lack of a proper arcane or divine caster. The Mystic Theurge is awful at both, and never really catches up. For the rebuild, go with either the new early entry Mystic Theurge, which is superior in every way yet still not over-powered, or with a dedicated Divine or Arcane caster. Personally, I'd go with the the early entry MT because, you know, piles of spells. A Witch with good healing ability would also be a solid choice.
A proper Arcane caster can lay down Battlefield Control and occasional blasts, making everyone's job easier. A proper divine caster can pass out pre-combat buffs and post-combat healing like candy, making everyone's job easier. An MT can do both.
Finally, read this terrific group-tactics guide and see if there aren't some clever things you can do to improve your odds.
unless your GM has houseruled against using SLAs to qualify for prestige classes, the fix is simple (and has been mentioned but not explained).
make an emberkin aasimar
start with wizard 2 (any school)
take 1 level of cleric- any god/archetype with the trickery domain
start leveling as MT at 4th (racial SLA fills arcane casting requirement, mirror image SLA from trickery satisfies divine)
pick feats/items/etc basically like a wiz, 11 levels of divine casting are just icing on the cake (keep Wis just high enough and don't rely on divine spells with saves)
Right, SLAs can help fulfill either or both sides (arcane/divine) although if you only get one 2nd level SLA, that's still a very nice early entry. SLAs follow the arcane/divine type of the class they are from, or else there is a 'priority list' for racial SLAs:
For spell-like abilities gained from a creature's race or type (including PC races), the same rule should apply: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
For spell-like abilities gained from a class, use the spell type (arcane or divine) of that class to determine whether the spell-like ability is arcane or divine. If the class doesn't cast spells, use the above rule for spell-like abilities from race or type.
Aasimar's Daylight SLA is 3rd level so doesn't count as 2nd level Divine, but a Racial Archetype "Incorruptable"
swaps Daylight out for a Divine SLA of 2nd level Paladin/Inquisitor spell "Corruption Resistance".That fulfills the 2nd level divine requirement even if you want to progress Cleric/Oracle casting, not taking Paladin/Inquisitor levels.
Variant Agathion-Blooded "Idyll-kin" Aasimar also swap out Daylight for a 2nd level Divine SLA: Summon Nature's Ally II
(from Druid list, though the same applies: you don't need to take Druid levels to advance with MT, any Divine works)
Variant Daemon-Spawn "Grimspawn" Tieflings swap their arcane SLA out for "Deathknell" which is 2nd level and counts as Divine.
(the FAQ doesn't cover directly how non-Core class spell lists interact in the 'priority list' to determine an SLAs typing,
but SKR, while refusing to spell out the ruling, at least did not argue with the idea that
the given priority list does take priority, thus all non-Core classes come after it, even if full casters like the Witch.
Deathknell is both a Cleric and Witch spell, but not Wizard/Sorceror, so by that ruling it counts as a Divine SLA.)
Tons of more options exist for getting a racial 2nd level arcane SLA, and I think there is several Cleric Domains for divine SLAs.
Since you do have a Rage Prophet henchman, and a Bard and Alchemist with limited healing,
I think you're best off favoring the Arcane side of things, and having Divine as secondary/weaker.
You can still grab scrolls of higher level Divine spells you might want, e.g. Resurrection, and make Caster Level/UMD checks to use them.
That still leaves alot of options...
Wizard(using INT)/Sorceror(using CHA or INT/WIS if Wildblooded:Sage/Empyreal)/Witch(INT or potentially CON)
+
Cleric(WIS+CHA secondary)/Oracle(CHA)/Druid(WIS)...
Witch gets more of their value from their non-spell class abilities, which wouldn't scale in a MT build, and their only advantage vs. Wiz/Sorc in spell lists is normally Divine spells (which you would get via other half of MT), so I don't recommend them for the arcane side. Cleric/Oracle vs. Druid spell lists is more of a toss-up I guess, although since some of Druid spells are also Wiz/Sorc, I guess I would lean towards Cleric/Oracle + Wizard/Sorceror.
FYI, Paizo made a slightly weird FAQ ruling that while Clerics and Specialist Wizards DO gain Domain/School Slots, Oracles and Sorcerors DO NOT gain Mystery/Bloodline Spells Known when they progress casting thru a PrC (such as Mystic Theurge). That may influence your choice somewhat.
(I see no basis in the RAW for that: the FAQ never addressed the specific RAW including Mystery/Bloodline Spells' status as Spells Known which the RAW states are advanced, and have never seen a balance argument why that should be (vs. Clerics/Spec.Wizards), so I don't play that way, but that's the official FAQ. I guess you could read it as VERY stealth Errata, although I have no idea why that wasn't expressed openly if that was their goal, and again, I'm not sure the balance motivation for such 'errata'.)
Well deep gnome theurge with early entry solves prob #2.
Ideas For bard archieologist to help in combat? Want to ditch hench since I'm playing solo and 5 toons is pushin it. But I have a feelin that ship has sailed without total rewrite of that toon
Thanks for all the great ideas so far
My first thought on the bard is: Did he take any buffing spells? Good Hope and Haste are must-haves. (If you have Haste already, he may skip it, but still... Haste). Moment of Greatness gives everyone the chance to double their morale bonus on one roll (and with Good Hope there are lots of +2 morale bonuses to choose from).
Touch of Gracelessness is a wonderful 1st level spell that dishes out some amount of dex penalty no matter whether the opponent saves or not. Lower dex = easier to hit = useful to everyone. If he wants, he can pick up a wand of spectral hand somewhere to deliver the touch at range. Being a bard and all, he probably has the charisma for UMD.
To really look at how to make him better, I think we need to know what he actually does/can do in battle other than be ineffective with a whip.
My first thought on the bard is: Did he take any buffing spells? Good Hope and Haste are must-haves. (If you have Haste already, he may skip it, but still... Haste). Moment of Greatness gives everyone the chance to double their morale bonus on one roll (and with Good Hope there are lots of +2 morale bonuses to choose from).
Touch of Gracelessness is a wonderful 1st level spell that dishes out some amount of dex penalty no matter whether the opponent saves or not. Lower dex = easier to hit = useful to everyone. If he wants, he can pick up a wand of spectral hand somewhere to deliver the touch at range. Being a bard and all, he probably has the charisma for UMD.
To really look at how to make him better, I think we need to know what he actually does/can do in battle other than be ineffective with a whip.
Yes I picked up haste but not the others.
10 str. 18 dex. 10 con. 19 int. 10 wis. 22 cha. ( couple ioun stones ,etc)
Massive skills due to shard artifact,high int,and bard stuff. Has about 10-15 in all talking physical. Thief and knowledge skills
Spells are pretty standard (cures,charms,buffs,sonic)
Combat for him has been tossin spells or runnin like hell. We keep finding brainless stuff like golems which shuts down his spells. In melee his bonus to hit stink and damage is a rapier when whip fails or Short bow but 1d4 is barely worth effort. Almost all feats are for social or whip so no help there except weapon finesse. In short he is a beast out of combat and lacks anything I can think of productive to do in combat. Yeah, spells but you don't have unlimited supply. Need a plan C I guess ?
There is nothing necessarily wrong with not shining in combat, but the need to feel useful is understandable. It sounds to me like what you're quite unhappy with the whip feats. Maybe see if you can retrain them or get a free rebuild from your GM. Archaeologist's Luck counts as Bardic Performance for the purpose of feats, so how about taking Lingering Performance to basically triple your daily rounds (assuming you aren't otherwise using your swift actions)?
I still stand by my spell suggestions from before. After two rounds setting up (or one if you have some foresight and cast Good Hope ahead of combat), you'll have a to hit of +16/+11 (+7/+2 BAB, +4 dex, +2 Good Hope, +2 Archaeologist's Luck, +1 Haste), or higher if your weapon is magic or masterwork.
Add in a Touch of Gracelessness, which averages 7.5 dex penalty on a failed save and 4 on a succesful save, that is an average AC penalty of -2 or -3, depending on whether or not they make their save. Max is 11, which adds up to a -5 to their AC. With 7 first level spells per day this one should be affordable to throw around once in a while if you can find room for it in your spells known.
...did I mention it stacks with itself?
Otherwise, plan C... Aid another to help you allies hit or to improve their AC, maybe?
EDIT: Oh, I forgot the extra attack from Haste, so make that +16/+16/+11.