Goblin Squad Member
|
I agree that dying should cause a setback of some kind, maybe a penalty in the rate of skill/xp gain that you accumulate over time causing you to get it slower than normal for a set period. That would hamper character progression in a way that matters to everyone.In that case there would be ABJECT TERROR at the idea of PvP. You're losing training time that you paid for. Griefers are practically robbing you in real life with that idea.
I said slow it down not stop it altogether. But you're right, with the way players are conditioned these days to push to max level as fast as possible because "that's when you're powerful and when the game really starts", it would cause everyone to pitch a fit.
Which is why we should do it. *evil grin*
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree that dying should cause a setback of some kind, maybe a penalty in the rate of skill/xp gain that you accumulate over time causing you to get it slower than normal for a set period. That would hamper character progression in a way that matters to everyone.In that case there would be ABJECT TERROR at the idea of PvP. You're losing training time that you paid for. Griefers are practically robbing you in real life with that idea.I said slow it down not stop it altogether. But you're right, with the way players are conditioned these days to push to max level as fast as possible because "that's when you're powerful and when the game really starts", it would cause everyone to pitch a fit.
Which is why we should do it. *evil grin*
Take care so that the best way to "advance" in the game doesn't end up being not playing it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree that dying should cause a setback of some kind, maybe a penalty in the rate of skill/xp gain that you accumulate over time causing you to get it slower than normal for a set period. That would hamper character progression in a way that matters to everyone.In that case there would be ABJECT TERROR at the idea of PvP. You're losing training time that you paid for. Griefers are practically robbing you in real life with that idea.I said slow it down not stop it altogether. But you're right, with the way players are conditioned these days to push to max level as fast as possible because "that's when you're powerful and when the game really starts", it would cause everyone to pitch a fit.
Which is why we should do it. *evil grin*
If you slow down the rate of training time, say so that I get 20 day's worth of training when I paid for 30, then I'm losing those 10 days. Nothing to do with conditioning to reach cap as quick as possible, and everything to do with feeling like you just devalued the game time I paid for by 1/3.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
@Decius, this would of course assume that the NPC's drop the stolen gear they use after they are slain. If they didn't, then it would have no effect on the economy and only serve to make the mobs stronger.I wasn't concise enough in my statement. I was actually thinking the NPC's would also suffer a 25% gear loss when killed by PCs, thus the total gear loss would be 43%.
There is also the distribution impact. The original PC is not always going to be the one getting the gear back. It might be allies, allowing them to get the gear back via social ties, or it might be a neutral party or even an enemy. While the state of the total economy remains unchanged (aside from the 43% gear loss), crafters would have a much higher chance of being engaged to restore the gear for the original PC that suffered the loss.
Likewise, if NPCs equip some gear (not all NPCs should be able to equip all gear looted) they in turn become stronger and may kill more PCs than normal and continue or grow any involved escalation cycles. More dead PCs means even more of a gear sink and more business for crafters, harvesters and merchants.
The change is NOT adding a sink of 43%. The change is ADDING a faucet of "75% of the gear that would have been lost due to corpse decay reenters circulation as loot".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The change is NOT adding a sink of 43%. The change is ADDING a faucet of "75% of the gear that would have been lost due to corpse decay reenters circulation as loot".
Depending on how hard it is and how long it takes to smelt and shape components and forge a new blade, this might be either a good or a bad thing.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
The change is NOT adding a sink of 43%. The change is ADDING a faucet of "75% of the gear that would have been lost due to corpse decay reenters circulation as loot".Depending on how hard it is and how long it takes to smelt and shape components and forge a new blade, this might be either a good or a bad thing.
I was particularly interested in the idea that the escalation bosses would accumulate a large amount of stuff that the group that finally beat him would get. I think that having a large, increasing reward for taking down the boss would encourage competition, and making the final distribution be largely one lump sum creates market factors that I can't predict.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I find I am currently favoring the idea that crafting should be all about achieving high quality in few individual pieces that can be produced. Specifically not intending construction material for walls and the like, but weapons, armor, jewelry and similar should not be mass produced, or if mass produced they should be inferior.
I'd rather spend a month smelting ore into an ingot and hammering it into shape, obtaining the right balance, the right hardness and spring. and shaping bone or ivory and setting gems to produce a really fine weapon than produce a hundred identical swords or axes.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can see it now:
"Feeding an Escalation"
A term used in Pathfinder Online when players attempt to eliminate an Escalation but fail, resulting in an increase in the Escalation strength due to the gear and experience the creatures in the Escalation receive.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Every Man Jack and Lady Jane needs a weapon. Not every one will be able to afford weapons of such labor intensive quality and materials. Every up and coming crafter needs to make a living on the way to attaining mastery. The fewer faucets and the more drains on unthreaded gear, the better. IMO.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I can see it now:
"Feeding an Escalation"
A term used in Pathfinder Online when players attempt to eliminate an Escalation but fail, resulting in an increase in the Escalation strength due to the gear and experience the creatures in the Escalation receive.
YES! A hundred times yes!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I can see it now:
"Feeding an Escalation"
A term used in Pathfinder Online when players attempt to eliminate an Escalation but fail, resulting in an increase in the Escalation strength due to the gear and experience the creatures in the Escalation receive.
And of course, you can also have people intentionally feeding escalations. Would need to watch out for that with the idea that escalations get experience from killing people, because you could bulk up an escalation with no cost but time for yourself by just repeatedly running your character in to die (and such an action seems rather wonky, at least to me). However, if there's some daily cap or something that would easily solve the problem.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Agreeing with what Shane said. It is a cool idea, but seems a bit weird if something like that is allowed.
Now that said, an opposed faction having an option of giving an escalation items/supplies/or something also does seem interesting though. A more subtle way at taking a jab at an opposing faction. Though perhaps it could backfire as when the escalation is defeated they have more supplies/loot for the taking.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Agreeing with what Shane said. It is a cool idea, but seems a bit weird if something like that is allowed.
Now that said, an opposed faction having an option of giving an escalation items/supplies/or something also does seem interesting though. A more subtle way at taking a jab at an opposing faction. Though perhaps it could backfire as when the escalation is defeated they have more supplies/loot for the taking.
I think they are talking about doing something similar. I think you can start or increase an escalation with a totem or something. Been a while since I have read it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My interpretation was that the gear which NPC's acquire from players would not be guaranteed to drop from the mob wearing it (make it like 50% chance it's just lost instead), and if it does drop it would likely be much more damaged; this would mean fueling an escalation would lead to giving your enemies free loot, but much less useful loot than you originally had (both because there's less of it and because that which is left over is more damaged). I think keeping and dropping 100% of the loot from corpses leads to too much gear being kept.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If you slow down the rate of training time, say so that I get 20 day's worth of training when I paid for 30, then I'm losing those 10 days. Nothing to do with conditioning to reach cap as quick as possible, and everything to do with feeling like you just devalued the game time I paid for by 1/3.I agree that dying should cause a setback of some kind, maybe a penalty in the rate of skill/xp gain that you accumulate over time causing you to get it slower than normal for a set period. That would hamper character progression in a way that matters to everyone.In that case there would be ABJECT TERROR at the idea of PvP. You're losing training time that you paid for. Griefers are practically robbing you in real life with that idea.I said slow it down not stop it altogether. But you're right, with the way players are conditioned these days to push to max level as fast as possible because "that's when you're powerful and when the game really starts", it would cause everyone to pitch a fit.
Which is why we should do it. *evil grin*
I understand what you're saying. However, it's actually a better system, still giving some gain, than say an old school death penalty in a subscription game that caused you to lose all your xp since you last leveled or saved your character. With those systems you'd be paying your monthly fee, you'd only gain xp while logged in and playing, and then you'd lose it all when you died unexpectedly. Your time spent all gone. No gain for the money you spent IRL.
Now while I'd like to see some of those old school penalties return to MMO's, it wouldn't work as well with PFO. If this doesn't fly then let's get more suggestions that evenly affect everyone that doesn't involve extra gear loss.
And of course, you can also have people intentionally feeding escalations. Would need to watch out for that with the idea that escalations get experience from killing people, because you could bulk up an escalation with no cost but time for yourself by just repeatedly running your character in to die (and such an action seems rather wonky, at least to me). However, if there's some daily cap or something that would easily solve the problem.I can see it now:
"Feeding an Escalation"
A term used in Pathfinder Online when players attempt to eliminate an Escalation but fail, resulting in an increase in the Escalation strength due to the gear and experience the creatures in the Escalation receive.
You know what would help that? XP or skill loss penalty.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
All I hear is you saying, "no". Be helpful by giving an alternative to use instead.You know what would help that? XP or skill loss penalty.Stealing money from your players. Got it.
The alternative is not stealing from your players. I don't provide an alternative because I remain unconvinced that further penalties are required.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
All I hear is you saying, "no". Be helpful by giving an alternative to use instead.You know what would help that? XP or skill loss penalty.Stealing money from your players. Got it.
Since players are paying real money for their XP, losing XP due to death won't sit well with a lot of people.
However I could see a temporary skill penalty being acceptable that would need a shrine/tavern/ or other place you can rest to get rid of the penalty but that would apply to any death. PVE or PVP.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Shane is right, no change to xp, and gear looting by NPC IMO is just dumb for all the reasons already stated.
Plus:
If a player died to an NPC what chance does he really stand of getting it back fighting the same NPC that now has better gear than when he killed the player the first time. Yes he could get help but then comes The problem of finding same said NPC a second time.
NPC looting minus one.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
All I hear is you saying, "no". Be helpful by giving an alternative to use instead.You know what would help that? XP or skill loss penalty.Stealing money from your players. Got it.Since players are paying real money for their XP, losing XP due to death won't sit well with a lot of people.
However I could see a temporary skill penalty being acceptable that would need a shrine/tavern/ or other place you can rest to get rid of the penalty but that would apply to any death. PVE or PVP.
Really, what I'm asking for is something like a Death Tax and almost no one likes taxes so I can see how many won't want it or like it. I believe that gear loss (especially the idea of threaded gear loss) as the sole penalty is not a fair way to deal with death across the board for all players.
I think there should be some kind of loss for dying or it won't matter and characters will be thrown into the meat grinder over and over. For some games that is perfectly acceptable. I don't think PFO should be one of those games.
So that leads to the need for some kind of penalty that is just as harsh on newbies as it is veterans. That has no bearing on your wealth or status in the game. For that to work it needs to be a mechanic across all characters. As mentioned, xp penalties are the traditional way of handling this but since PFO isn't going that route I replaced it with skill point accumulation.
If that is too harsh than perhaps a stacking temporary percentage loss of a dead characters max health. How about a 5% loss to max health upon every death with a duration of 5 minutes. Dying within that time frame would reset the duration back to 5 minutes and stack on 5%. So if you died 10 times, each time before the debuff wore off, you would have a max health of 50% your normal and it would last 5 minutes. This would allow you to continue running into mass PvP over and over with a bit lower health each time but still viable until you die too many times and then have to take a time out. Or to have a few goes at that nasty PvE mob. Of course this debuff could never be healed through magic or other forms of healing or it would become pointless.
Edit: Considering travel time 10 or more minutes for a duration might be better but you get the idea.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Ravenlute
Perhaps accumulating critical penalties and the associated recovery/downtime will do what you want just fine?
Hmm, perhaps you're right. There's really no way to say without experiencing it. It's just good to get all these ideas out there while the game still has room to change.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The change is NOT adding a sink of 43%. The change is ADDING a faucet of "75% of the gear that would have been lost due to corpse decay reenters circulation as loot".
Only if the loot from the original corpse would not have been recovered and 100% of the gear would have therefore decayed. If the gear was recovered (and we assume that state with the NPC wearing the gear scenario), then the loss works out greater.
I guess it depends on how often gear from corpses is recovered, which quite likely depends on decay time and various other factors. Is a constant 43% loss better for the game than a combined 25%/100% loss?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Shane is right, no change to xp, and gear looting by NPC IMO is just dumb for all the reasons already stated.
Plus:
If a player died to an NPC what chance does he really stand of getting it back fighting the same NPC that now has better gear than when he killed the player the first time. Yes he could get help but then comes The problem of finding same said NPC a second time.
NPC looting minus one.
Hah, actually I am very much in favor of NPC's being able to loot players and get stronger from killing enough players; funny that you interpreted my stance as the opposite (not a jab at you, just find it funny that I didn't express my opinion clear enough). I was only throwing out a caution that there would need to be checks in place to make sure it isn't abused by people suiciding into mobs to inflate them.
The idea is not that a player should be able to get back the looted gear once an NPC kills them; in all likelihood some other player will come along and kill the NPC and take the loot. The idea is that the escalations can grow organically as well as artificially. Artificial growth meaning that, after X amount of time the escalation gets stronger, whereas organic growth would happen as a result of player actions (for example, players attacking and dying against the escalation).
This just plain makes sense to me: why wouldn't the orc warchief use the badass sword some PC just dropped, why wouldn't the necromancer put to use the wizard's staff he just took from a corpse? It's also something that I've never seen an MMO do, or heard of an MMO doing, so it would be a coll innovation to flaunt in advertisements. And finally, this is how Pathfinder TT also works: because the enemies are controlled by a GM, they use the smartest tactics available to attack the players, including looting the players' bodies when they die. I actually just had a scenario like this occur in a game I'm running.
Because the alchemist was described as someone who was experimenting with fleshcrafting, I decided that he would keep the two unconscious PC's alive to perform experiments on them. However, he did take all their equipment off their bodies immediately, and equipped himself handsomely with the magical wands, cloaks, and boots. Anyways, one of the party members wanted to bring in an alt character instead of the one he was playing so we killed off his character in the alchemist's experiments, while the second character awoke on the experimenting table. The one party member who escaped called in a favor with the goblin tribe living in town and got a goblin commando team (controlled by the PC's) to go down with him into the complex and rescue his party members. Queue second intense fight against the alchemist and one gearman construct, where the alchemist is barely beaten after killing one (PC strength) goblin, then flees the dungeon complex to live another day and return later as a recurring villain. Overall one of the best sessions I've had in a while.
TL;DR: party is defeated by big-bad guy, one PC escapes and hires a goblin commando team to reenter the dungeon and rescue his party members. Big-bad uses players' own equipment against them and then escapes to become recurring villain.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Despite my earlier expression that I'd like to get my stuffs back from the mob that killed me, I recognize the current design (at least as far as I recall it) to make mob drops all crafting resources rather than gear. In the pictograph in the blog about crafting these are represented as equipment salvage which I assume can be melted down and used to make a new weapon. Pre-refined but unusable otherwise.
I don't think that should preclude an Orc boss from being able to use the best equipment looted from players even if they can't use all the keywords. However alignment-specific LG player drops would probably not be wielded by a CE mob boss.
p.s. loved the recounted adventure, Shane. I hope your players appreciate you ;)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Being, indeed, the important part in my eyes isn't so much that the equipment drops off the NPCs as the fact that the NPCs get an increase in power from the equipment. In fact, if the equipment didn't drop off the NPCs at all it would remove the issue of equipping your enemies when you make their escalations tougher (if we wanted to remove such an issue). However, I also realize that it seems less fair to the casual observer that the enemies should be significantly stronger but not drop any better equipment.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm no wizard with math, but this us how I see it....
Original player has 100% gear and gets killed. Mob picks up 75% of the non threaded gear and uses it. Mob is then killed and drops 75% of the gear, but this time it has decayed twice. That leaves roughly 44% of the original gear, twice decayed.
However, in the event that the mob never again gets killed, or tracked down, that a total of 75% is removed from the market. Mobs aren't going to sell their gear.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
How long would a mob need to be tracked with it's increased power factors and/or inventory?
How much strain on the system from increased recognition of such and separate calculations required?
What kind of coding task are we talking about here?
Would it still be viable and less "work intensive" if it only applied to specific boss mob types, yet still interesting enough to make this game unique and attractive and different?
This is brainstorming here so the "how much work would it take" argument is a low blow, admittedly. ;)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am not in favor of having threaded items destroyed - if that would happen then what is the point of threading them?
A harsher penalty could be a decrease in the amount of threads you have for a certain amount of time. All of a sudden your better gear could be at risk.
Then you have to make the decision - do I risk going back out immediately? If I do should I thread my uber weapon or that sweet piece of armor?
The cautious would say - screw trying to get my corpse, I'll just have to buy replacements. The more adventurous could still attempt to get their bodies and recover some of their stuff.
Note I am not in favor of this idea - I think the current penalty is fine, but then I am a 'carebear' that will probably be trying to recover my corpse a lot :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I for one don't see any reason a PvE death should be penalized more than a PvP death. In both cases, if you get to your body before someone else loots it then you should find the same thing on your corpse. I don't think making death suck more adds anything useful to PvE.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I concur, Shane: there should be no specialized PvE balancing any different from PvP, no special rules. Mobs that win should gain the benefit of your unthreaded loot is all.Which, in practice, would be identical to a player who beats you in PvP taking your stuff.
And in practice that is not the case in PvE. I've never played a game where the mobs that kill you, actually loot you.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Happy day for crafters. Terrible day for players when individual items get as expensive as Ryan has suggested they might be. ;)
The goal is to have a constant demand of goods from crafters. if you cannot afford to replace your then dont go out in it. Item lose, either through item destruction/degrading or having it taken from you means that character has to replace it.
I am a fan of the destruction of items because that means that the items actually leave the game, not just change hands. What I dont want to see happen is that 5 years down the road everyone is in super high end gear and losing it doesnt mean anything since it never actually leaves the game. the result is that the value of the items will tank and crafters will lose meaning because the market is saturated.
I think that no matter the situation, some goods should be destroyed on death.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
And in practice that is not the case in PvE. I've never played a game where the mobs that kill you, actually loot you.I concur, Shane: there should be no specialized PvE balancing any different from PvP, no special rules. Mobs that win should gain the benefit of your unthreaded loot is all.Which, in practice, would be identical to a player who beats you in PvP taking your stuff.
My neither. Although DAoC let you give equipment to keep guards which actually did help. Killing them didn't return your stuff though. Once given, it was lost.
Having mobs loot your body, I don;t really care for. You have criticals etc. to give you disadvantage. If you want mobs PvE top be tougher, just give them an opportunity to get an upgraded weapon etc upon killing a PC. Example, I am fighting these orcs and one of them kills me. He has a 5% chance to recieve a weapon to increased damage 5%. Something easy and controllable. And if he receives this upgrade, then ha drops a little better loot. Kind of like a level up for him.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
And in practice that is not the case in PvE. I've never played a game where the mobs that kill you, actually loot you.I concur, Shane: there should be no specialized PvE balancing any different from PvP, no special rules. Mobs that win should gain the benefit of your unthreaded loot is all.Which, in practice, would be identical to a player who beats you in PvP taking your stuff.
Several MUDs had this mechanic (and possibly still do). They wouldn't use the loot, but would grab everything from a PC corpse when one died. Became quite lucrative for 'gear retriever' characters that hired themselves out.
I think the dynamic would be most interesting if said items moved to the highest-ranking creature in the escalation for which they would be an upgrade. You wouldn't find the T3 vorpal longsword on the orc raider, but you might find it in the hands of the orcish warboss.
I like this... Without it, escalations seem somewhat more staid, a smoothly calibrated difficulty that you can easily forecast, and single failures in battle don't mean that much. With it, single failures in battle directly strengthen the enemy NPCs further, making the escalation much more 'swingy'. If you happen to have bad luck for a bit, then the escalation can quickly turn beyond just your small settlement's ability to handle. Of course, if you can turn the tide, you will be getting back those weapons via NPC drops.
Bludd's little CE-fantasy about corpse looting from fallen PCs killed by NPCS/monsters seems legit too.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Bludd's little CE-fantasy about corpse looting from fallen PCs killed by NPCS/monsters seems legit too.
That is what happens in that text MUD Dragonrealms I've referred to several times: The player dies and their corpse becomes a fresh grave site. For a little while it remains pristine and inviolable to anyone save the character who ran back essentially naked, but over time the gear randomly pops to the surface where anyone can grab it and run. If the character gets there in time he has to /dig up his gear from the grave. Very scary when, in order to rez, the character has to have a 'favor' from one of the gods (earned through accomplishing special deity deeds) and is limited to a max of five favors. Your grave is probably still under threat of the mob(s) or PK that killed you when fully equipped. Plus death leaves you in a weakened state. You essentially have five shots at getting your gear. Run out of favors and its time to 'walk the starry road', which is permadeath.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Which part of this nonsense is supposed to keep me playing this game instead of something that isn't nearly so masochistic?
We are discussing various possibilities for the consequences of death. I'm not sure what makes that "nonsense" but your TT perspective is welcome.
I'm not sure what your title means, but I'll assume you spend a lot of time roleplaying.
What is your opinion on what would make a good roleplaying situation built around the death of a character?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ A Man In Black,
In a sandbox MMO, the character is the end game, and the content is the world and what he or she makes of it. Yes there will be some PvE content for us to play with, but it will be limited.
I'm not really sure how much PvE content could be considered "Heroic". I believe the heroic part would come from a combination of risk, effort, sacrifice and the margin of victory or failure.
Typically, the pinnacle of PvE content is the dungeon raid and boss mob. These usually become less heroic and more a chore as chookie cutter builds and tactics, along with repeated attempts, remove any sense of heroic achievement.
Don't get me wrong, PvP is not the total answer ether. So, what woukd you introduce as a possible activity that woukd capture that "heroic" fantasy you're looking for?