Goblin Squad Member
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We can pretty much assume that settlement managers can set tax rates within their domains, and that local markets will generate local taxes.
What about private trades that bypass the market? They will generate no taxes. It may be possible that taxes can be auto applied in the cases of contracts, but should they?
Should private trades that bypass markets and contracts be "illegal" or "chaotic" actions or be possible to set as such (at any or a limited level) by the settlement where they take place? Perhaps, small trades would not be a concern, but what about bulk dealings at a certain threshold of units?
Is this smuggling in some form?
Is this too much control?
We can pretty much assume that settlement managers can set tax rates within their domains, and that local markets will generate local taxes.
What about private trades that bypass the market? They will generate no taxes. It may be possible that taxes can be auto applied in the cases of contracts, but should they?
Should private trades that bypass markets and contracts be "illegal" or "chaotic" actions or be possible to set as such (at any or a limited level) by the settlement where they take place? Perhaps, small trades would not be a concern, but what about bulk dealings at a certain threshold of units?
Is this smuggling in some form?
Is this too much control?
Allowing private trades is a necessary adjunct to keeping market rates reasonable. Down the road when the river kingdoms are more settled there will be a handful of major powers. At this point they may come together and agree a 50% tax on all market transactions between them and tell all the minor powers to knuckle under or be destroyed. If private trades are free and easy it prevents them from doing it because everyone would just move to this.
Allowing private trades free of settlement interference is also necessary to stop bullying of members of the "You should be donating those resources to us not selling them" sort.
Lastly all it would do is drive the people who wish to trade privately to do it in the npc settlement out of reach of the settlement taxes.
People mostly use the market or contracts in eve rather than private trades because it is easier to do so. Using private trades means making connections with people who want to buy either on a singular or regular basis. This is more effort than most want to put in and will restrict private trades to a fairly small slice of trade (unless you get the tax fixing cartel I described)
Conclusion (my opinion)
No it is not smuggling
Yes it is too much control
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Goblin Squad Member
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So what is smuggling? Maybe that is something we should get a handle on since a few big games in the round-file of history got smuggling wrong.
Rather than cite a definition, let's play with examples.
If Steelwing's coterie of Big Outfits decides on a mandatory 50% tax rate and I bring in some furs from the frontier is it smuggling to slip the furs into the market area and swap goods with someone without paying the 50% tax?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So what is smuggling? Maybe that is something we should get a handle on since a few big games in the round-file of history got smuggling wrong.
Rather than cite a definition, let's play with examples.
If Steelwing's coterie of Big Outfits decides on a mandatory 50% tax rate and I bring in some furs from the frontier is it smuggling to slip the furs into the market area and swap goods with someone without paying the 50% tax?
I think that fits as one definition of smuggling pretty well. It is not always bringing in illegal merchandise but sometimes the selling of everyday things outside of government approved channels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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private trades that do not involve the settlement should not be taxed, this includes things like contracts.
The advantage of using the settlement shops should be that you can buy/sell while people are offline.
on this line i would like to see settlements be able to setup buys. So a settlement can make it so that they will buy 10000 stone, any merchant can go to the settlement and sell the stone for whatever price the settlement sets it to. The money will come from a specific amount set aside from the settlement coffers and the goods will go into the settlement storage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There should be benefits to trading via the market that justify the extra expense due to taxes. It's possible that the only such benefit will be the ability to conduct transactions while one of the parties is not present.
I can agree to your and Steelwing's points. It would (theoretically) be possible though since they are/were tinkering with the idea of trade with low rep persons being monitored and penalizing.
I am really, really desperate for a new and unexplored topic. ;)
So what is smuggling? Maybe that is something we should get a handle on since a few big games in the round-file of history got smuggling wrong.
Rather than cite a definition, let's play with examples.
If Steelwing's coterie of Big Outfits decides on a mandatory 50% tax rate and I bring in some furs from the frontier is it smuggling to slip the furs into the market area and swap goods with someone without paying the 50% tax?
I think that fits as one definition of smuggling pretty well. It is not always bringing in illegal merchandise but sometimes the selling of everyday things outside of government approved channels.
The trouble with this definition however is that it means either smuggling is meaningless as it can never be caught or it means that you have to give settlements the means to monitor private trades which in my view is a bad thing (it also means smuggling cannot be successful).
If you wish smuggling to be in game I would suggest you allow a very temporary structure to be created which can be placed on a road called a customs post. This structure would allow all passing trade to be inspected and taxed. I would suggest the structure lasts about 2 to 3 hours. The point of the temporary nature is to impose a cost for doing it and also so the customs posts aren't always in the same place.
You then have smuggling by people trying to bring in goods while avoiding the customs posts
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Goblin Squad Member
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We can pretty much assume that settlement managers can set tax rates within their domains, and that local markets will generate local taxes.
What about private trades that bypass the market? They will generate no taxes. It may be possible that taxes can be auto applied in the cases of contracts, but should they?
I wouldn't mind if private trades were automatically taxed within the settlement space. The settlement should have a check box to toggle private trades taxable or not. There might be skills to avoid this tax, or people can travel outside the settlement walls to conduct their trades (making them vulnerable to robbery).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The third party gets a fee for brokering the buy and sell orders and keeping everything in escrow for it. Insisting on a tax for a hand to hand exchange is highly authoritarian, probably more work than it's worth to code.
I think of fantasy smuggling more in types of goods that are illegal for an area. Poisons, dead bodies, religious trophies, even some crafting materials if collecting/trading them is limited to only the state (rare components for tier 3 upgrades, or trying to corner the regional market on stone).
Theoretically the settlement interface could include a way to select anything from the entire item database to make illegal to possess and/or trade in its controlled area, so doing either of those would become smuggling there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The trouble with this definition however is that it means either smuggling is meaningless as it can never be caughtSell to the wrong customer and you'll be caught.
or it means that you have to give settlements the means to monitor private trades which in my view is a bad thing (it also means smuggling cannot be successful).
I don't follow. Why would it be necessary for a settlement to know aout the black market and bartering? I'm not seeing the necessity you are.
If you wish smuggling to be in game I would suggest you allow a very temporary structure to be created which can be placed on a road called a customs post. This structure would allow all passing trade to be inspected and taxed. I would suggest the structure lasts about 2 to 3 hours. The point of the temporary nature is to impose a cost for doing it and also so the customs posts aren't always in the same place.That would enhance the smuggling experience to be sure but so would evading your patrols, and your patrols would not entail development of a new kind of temporary POI. Perhaps someting more permanent, like a functionof the watchtower.
You then have smuggling by people trying to bring in goods while avoiding the customs posts
I rather like the embellishment of some types of POI structures to serve also as a customs or inspection station.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This may already be included but if a Settlement sets a Tax rate / Tax law (and hopefully these can very depending upon what type of product is being bought or sold) and you make a trade within the settlement or it's lands, then you have a choice to ignore this tax during the transaction. By doing so you take an alignment hit/Rep hit by both parties for breaking the law or doing something underhanded. The same would go for illegal trade goods. You can buy or sell them, but if you do and there is a law against it, then you take the Align/Rep hit. This would effectively cause merchants/crafters to loose LG and start heading towards Chaotic and Evil with the repercussions to their Settlement in Align/Unrest and so forth and count as smuggling as well when you do it. Possibly have a "Get caught" mechanic chance and be fined as well. You could have a skill that allowed you to do this with less chance of "being caught" and this could effectively take the Rep penalty away but would not remove the Alignment penalties because these point to your character morals and not what others see you as (Rep).
Edit: This could still include inspection posts to increase the chance of "Being caught" as well as take the option to bypass the tax away while the post was active in your area. The Post could also take actual goods as a tax instead of just part of the cost.
Just and idea. Feel free to tear it apart. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think one obvious taxation method isn't a transaction tax in the market. It's a gate tax. Everything enters the settlement through the gates; everything passing into the settlement is for consumption or trade within. So everything gets taxed as it passes into town.
There would be exceptions, of course. Contractors who are hauling bulk materials to the settlement construction yard would have lading bills that get them past the checkpoint without fees, etc.
Efficiency and effectiveness of your tax collectors at the gate could of course depend on your law level and corruption.
It's a gate tax. Everything enters the settlement through the gates; everything passing into the settlement is for consumption or trade within. So everything gets taxed as it passes into town.
I think this is an assumption that is not necessarily true. It may well be the case if roads run from settlement to settlement that going from settlement A to settlement E could in fact require going through settlements B,C and D on the way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah. Pre -EU Europe. The U.S. when under the Articles of Confederation. Plenty of precedent for each settlement to collect tax from drayage passing through. Teamster passes the costs on to the buyer. Incentive to buy local.
It may not be necessarily true but it sounds homogenous with the rest... except the River Kingdoms is as unlikely to like taxation any more than the Boston Tea Party did.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The sales tax is a fairly recent invention and I don't think it has a place in PFO.
Market fees, on the other hand, certainly have a place. Those fees are for the use of the market, and trades that don't use the market don't incur those fees.
Tithes have a long history, and the hand waving required to make them automatic income taxes is relatively minor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think this is an assumption that is not necessarily true. It may well be the case if roads run from settlement to settlement that going from settlement A to settlement E could in fact require going through settlements B,C and D on the way.It's a gate tax. Everything enters the settlement through the gates; everything passing into the settlement is for consumption or trade within. So everything gets taxed as it passes into town.
As I said, there are exceptions. Some settlements might allow transshipments if they're on a major highway. In which case you pay a bonding fee to have town guards watch your cargo the entire time it remains in town. Other towns might require the shipment be sold if it enters the town (to give their merchants an advantage). Some towns just want the tax revenue, and out-of-town merchants are a great place to raise revenues.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very interesting ideas. I like the ideas of smuggling vs. playing nicely with your settlement; I think that most people who are doing big trading deals will not mind losing 5% to tax or whatever if it means they don't have to risk the goods by hauling the whole lot out of town (or, more likely, smuggling it out bit by bit). The protections offered by the player settlement should trump the extra cost for careful merchants, but those looking to play a riskier game can try and bypass the systems to avoid paying the extra cost. It's a very meaningful choice with no right answers, and one I approve of.
A gate tax does seem like it could be a turn-off for merchants, but then again if your route is the safest/best route due to your patrols and whatnot I think you are well within your rights to ask the merchants who use those routes to pay for the patrols (at least in part) via a gate tax or something similar. And also if your route's the only safe route I think that most of the merchants would bite the bullet and pay the gate tax just to avoid the extra risk of other routes.
Steelwing, why do you think a customs post should incur a continuous cost? I like the idea of using as an upgrade for specific PoI's, because that means you'd have to make a potentially tough decision between either a customs outpost or some other useful structure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan has said that the economy is a major focus. Whether these things are feasible or not is an issue for discussion. I can see that markets will have activity regardless of "free trade" existing or not. The issue is a little different here because settlements themselves will benefit from taxation.
Do the owners of player stations in EVE benefit from the market fees in their locations?
Steelwing, why do you think a customs post should incur a continuous cost? I like the idea of using as an upgrade for specific PoI's, because that means you'd have to make a potentially tough decision between either a customs outpost or some other useful structure.
The reason to make them temporary is not actually particularly for the cost but to give the settlement an incentive to move them around. If you know in advance where the customs posts are they are easy to avoid. If however there could be one around any bend in the road they are less so.
Temporary posts also give an opportunity for the setting up of fake customs posts for that little extra game play
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is predicated on a big IF.
If we end up able to see why a character is hostile to us, we might see someone flagged criminal (smuggling) because they just bought or sold black market goods. Taking proof of bringing them to justice (loot item spawned by that flag?) the settlement might choose to offer rewards for dealing with smugglers in their territory. Catching the criminal negates the corruption from the black market trade and sends fences elsewhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps then the upgrade on the PoI is some kind of regional customs office that lets you place the customs posts within several nearby hexes (say the hex it's in plus all adjacent hexes). It could either create low-cost, temporary posts, or create a flat amount of no-cost posts which can be moved around on a cooldown (for example, it gives you 3 posts to place within the area, and you can only move 1 at a time).
This would mean that you need an investment from the settlement to have customs posts around every road bend, as they'd need to give up upgrades on several spread out PoI's. However, it means that the smugglers can't be certain about where the customs posts are at. (they could gather intel about where the customs offices are at and use that to figure out if there are any holes in the potential areas that the posts can cover)
Perhaps then the upgrade on the PoI is some kind of regional customs office that lets you place the customs posts within several nearby hexes (say the hex it's in plus all adjacent hexes). It could either create low-cost, temporary posts, or create a flat amount of no-cost posts which can be moved around on a cooldown (for example, it gives you 3 posts to place within the area, and you can only move 1 at a time).
This would mean that you need an investment from the settlement to have customs posts around every road bend, as they'd need to give up upgrades on several spread out PoI's. However, it means that the smugglers can't be certain about where the customs posts are at. (they could gather intel about where the customs offices are at and use that to figure out if there are any holes in the potential areas that the posts can cover)
Seems a reasonable idea
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I would not worry about the mobile customs tardis and simply employ some player guards with player a toll collector to patrol the roadways. The teamster pays the toll and gets a daily pass to show anyone else.
This opens the way for these officials to be impersonated, of course.
In answer to Bringslite even though he has now removed the question because he found customs posts.
In Eve the null sec equivalent of the hi sec stations is the Outpost
I have not done outpost management for quite a while so some of this is no doubt out of date (2005 was the last time I was involved in this)
Market fees do not goto the outpost owner however there are a range of fees that can be set and charged.
These include
docking cost per cubic metre
office rental cost
Reprocessing %age take
Thanks Steelwing.
I wonder if those avenues (or something similar) to generate local income will be available.
I wonder how much the management of a settlement will want to guard ALL possible income sources while balancing that against the attractiveness of low costs for trade.
I should have also mentioned that it is possible to set rates differently in Eve for people with different standings so you could charge greys at one value and blues at another
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Goblin Squad Member
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A gate tax does seem like it could be a turn-off for merchants, but then again if your route is the safest/best route due to your patrols and whatnot I think you are well within your rights to ask the merchants who use those routes to pay for the patrols (at least in part) via a gate tax or something similar. And also if your route's the only safe route I think that most of the merchants would bite the bullet and pay the gate tax just to avoid the extra risk of other routes.
Steelwing, why do you think a customs post should incur a continuous cost? I like the idea of using as an upgrade for specific PoI's, because that means you'd have to make a potentially tough decision between either a customs outpost or some other useful structure.
PoI's add-on make sense to me as well, from that point they would be using roads you settlement built as well as the points that Shane made.