First of all, I don't think that Paizo was specific enough with their rules for the 5-foot Step action on pg.189 of the Core rulebook. It says:
"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round."
They never specifically stated you could only do it on your turn. That's what was throwing me off at first. Then, I realized it was not listed under Immediate Actions, so I figured that you would have to perform a 5-foot step on your turn only.
Now I'm running into the following problem scenario:
It's a one-on-one fight. One of the characters is a fighter or other warrior type, without the Step Up feat (he/she could be of any class though). The other is a spell-caster. The spell-caster wins initiative and readies his/her action, waits for the fighter to move up to attack (or even charge), then uses his/her action to take a 5-foot step away, while casting a spell. BOOM spell goes off in the fighter's face, without consequence to the spell-caster. Rinse and repeat every round. The wizard is never even touched in a one-on-one fight. Does anyone else see an overlooked exploit here, or is it just me?
I realize that the Step Up feat could negate this, which would make it an automatic purchase at low-level for warrior types, but take a look at the Bestiary. How many melee-tank monsters have the Step Up feat? I could see spell-caster players using this little trick all day against just about any opponent without ranged weapons, unless I'm wrong somewhere in my interpretation of these rules.
The only other thing I can think of to do against this, is move toward your opponent and Ready an action declaring to "attack if the target attempts a 5-foot step", because then, your action would trigger immediately BEFORE the 5-foot step action. But then, why would you use a normal attack action against a spell-caster, that is readying and hasn't moved, ever again?
I'm perplexed....
There are several ways around this. While the thread I'm about to link to was about a melee person readying and not a caster, it still applies.
EDIT: See also this Ask James Jacobs post. If the attacker still have movement left on a charge or a move, guess what he gets to do ?
Thanks to everyone for helping. I think I will just take everyone's advice and allow the fighter (or whoever) to continue his/her movement after the readied action. Seems like the only real fix.
Thanks to everyone for helping. I think I will just take everyone's advice and allow the fighter (or whoever) to continue his/her movement after the readied action. Seems like the only real fix.
I understand readied actions being used to ready a single action, whether it is a standard, move, swift or free.
I don't understand how this spell caster is using readied actions to both attack via a cast spell (a standard action) and move. (a move action)
The way I see it is if the attack by the fighter is interrupted by your readied action (spell) and resolves his attack immediately after your readied action, then you wouldn't get a 5 foot step as it isn't your turn.
The "allow the melee combatant to continue his move after the triggering action" method is one way to counter this. Another is to throw the Wizard up against a foe who doesn't need to be in melee range to attack: Back up the melee fighter with an archer who uses his readied action to shoot the Wizard as soon as he goes to cast a spell; this forces the Wizard to make a concentration check because he's damaged while casting.
Also keep in mind that if the Wizard does this repeatedly, you can simply choose not to trigger his action: Rather than moving in to attack, have the melee combatant ready a charge against the Wizard the next time he casts a spell. Since he doesn't approach to attack, the Wizard just wasted his action (his readied action never triggers) and on the next round if he tries to cast, the Fighter gets to charge up and eat his face, forcing a concentration check that could cause the caster to lose his spell to boot.
[edit]
Actually, this raises a question in my mind: Can readied actions carry over into the next round? I originally thought, "No, they can't," but now that I read the rules, I'm not so sure:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
To me that sounds like as long as the trigger occurs before your next turn - any time in round X but before your turn in round Y - your readied action would trigger.
To try and clarify, in what I'm saying "round" refers to all actions taken by all characters during one initiative cycle; "turn" refers to a particular character's given initiative count during a round.
To use an example, Wizardguy and Fighterman are dueling. Wizardguy wins initiative and goes first.
Wizardguy moves, then casts a spell. End Wizardguy turn 1.
Fighterman readies an action to charge Wizardguy if he casts a spell. End Fighterman turn 1.
ROUND 2
Wizardguy moves, then starts to cast a spell.
Fighterman's readied action from round 1 triggers; he charges Wizardguy and attacks. Readied action complete.
Wizardguy casts his spell (concentration checks, etc.). End Wizardguy turn 2.
If that's correct, am I right in assuming that Fighterman wouldn't get a normal action during round 2? Since his initiative changes to the 'tick' before Wizardguy when his readied action triggers, and it's past that 'tick' in round 2, he wouldn't have an action.
this tactic messes with ride by attack and spring attack. It forces them to either move through threatened squares of allies, or move through a square you threaten if they go after your ally.
|
Once initiative has started, it really doesn't matter anymore about rounds. Just who goes next, and making sure everyone is accounted for. But with the special initiative actions, where one round ends and the next begins can be ignored. Effects that count down are usually tied to the actions of the character creating them.
|
I'm wary of players trying to exploit the abstraction of movement on a grid in rounds to game the system like this. A character that tries to duck around a corner for cover or jump out of the way would still realistically either be exposed to an attack before moving, or suffer a penalty on their own attack from moving away too soon.
That said, letting the character continue to move, or still attack as part of a charge regardless of the other chracter's movement, works almost as well.
Now I'm running into the following problem scenario:
It's a one-on-one fight. One of the characters is a fighter or other warrior type, without the Step Up feat (he/she could be of any class though). The other is a spell-caster. The spell-caster wins initiative and readies his/her action, waits for the fighter to move up to attack (or even charge), then uses his/her action to take a 5-foot step away, while casting a spell. BOOM spell goes off in the fighter's face, without consequence to the spell-caster. Rinse and repeat every round. The wizard is never even touched in a one-on-one fight. Does anyone else see an overlooked exploit here, or is it just me?
Have you overlooked the fact that the fighter being ONLY five foot away, if he survives is going be full attacking the caster on his turn? A fighter will generally destroy a wizard whose close to him in level.
Keep in mind the environment as well. In a typical dungeon fight, your wizard is going wind up either against a wall or in a spot where he can't back up any more.
Also keep in mind your allies. a rogue who's doing his job can acrobat himself into a flank. (are you really going to worry about melee AOO's from a wizard?) and go the stabbity stabbity route. If there is no rogue, the average party will pretty much gang up on the caster first even before other creatures, because that's smart tactics.
The moral of the story is.... you're not expected to face your challenges alone. Whatever class you are, you're a member of a party, and you succeed or fail together.
Actually, the fighter has already acted (chose to move and attack) in my scenario, so he couldn't have been able to perform a full attack action. He had to move up to the wizard to attack, then the wizard interrupted the fighter's action with his own readied action.
I also realize that the 5 foot step trick would be much harder to pull off in combat scenarios with parties involved. But you would still run into the one-on-one fight scenarios in a typical adventure as well, especially in cases where you only have two or three players and the party splits up to cover more ground. Cliche, I know, but that is why I chose this specific example.
Thank you for the clarification, Bizbag. I'm not certain I agree with the latter statement re: Allowing the Fighter to act in the second round, but the rest does clear up a misunderstanding on my part.
|
|
First - under normal circumstances, you cannot ready a charge. Let's assume the fighter has the Rhino Charge feat which allows him to do this.
Readying an action changes your initiative.
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
So for the rest of the combat, the fighter would act right before the wizard, and thus would not get a second action in that round.
I think some are misunderstanding the "interrupt" part of a readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
When a readied action interrupts another character's actions, it doesn't bring that other's character's actions to an end. It pauses that other character's actions until the readied action is resolved. After you resolve the readied action, you unpause the other's character's actions and they finish their turn.
Here are two possible scenarios:
Scenario 1
Fighter and wizard are 30 feet apart.
Wizard wins initiative, readies an action to cast a spell if fighter gets within 10 feet of the wizard.
Fighter moves 20 feet towards wizard, fighter's action is now interrupted (paused).
Wizard takes readied action, moves 5 feet and then casts a spell at the fighter.
(unpause)Assuming the fighter survives, the fighter now continues his turn. He has 10 feet of movement left for his movement action. He moves 10 feet closer, and then attacks the wizard.
Scenario 2
Fighter and wizard are 30 feet apart.
Wizard wins initiative, readies an action to cast a spell if fighter gets within 10 feet of the wizard.
Fighter readies an action to move if the wizard moves.
Fighter moves 20 feet towards the wizard, fighter's action is now interrupted (paused.)
Wizard's readied action triggers, moves 5 feet. Wizard's readied action is now interrupted (paused.)
Fighter's readied action triggers, and can now move 30 feet, moves right next to the wizard.
(unpause)Wizard finishes his readied action, with the option to cast a spell, or forego the spell.
(unpause)Fighter can finish his move action.
Readied actions can get complicated, but they add a lot of utility to characters.
the way readied actions work is they interupt an action which continues after the readied action is is how its written and intended.
ill present 3 scanrios one is specifically silly but its to ilustrate my point.
first if a bad guy has a readied action to attack the hero as he comes around a corner the hero moves 15 feet gets attacked and continues a move ( probably provoking an aoo in adition to the readied action)
example two i have a readied action to pick my nose when the evil over lord moves. the whole turn stops i take my action then the evil over lord finishes his turn.
finally in the ops example if the wizards readied action was to "cast a spell when the warrior attacks me" the warrior cannot continue his move after the spell because he ended his movement and went to attack.
if the wizard readied for " as son as the warrior threatens me" the warrior would resume his movement because the readied action triggers on the movement not the attack.
on a final note once the warrior moves threaten nothing stops him from counter readying to hit the wizard when he casts a spell. you dont decide your actions at the start of your turn but right as you decide to do them.
The readied action rules are pretty subject to nitpicking and abuse. It's probably a good idea, from a GM's perspective, to be strict about what you will allow a character to use as a trigger and then being particularly scrupulous about it yourself. For example, I was in a game in which I was playing a wizard and was facing a guy trying to disrupt my casting - for a couple of rounds, he was readying triggered on my casting. That's pretty reasonable. So I tried to shake things up and attacked him with a weapon - that was also treated as a triggering event under the assumption he was using "moving my hands" as a trigger. I thought that was pretty cheesy and it annoyed me. If someone has to come up with strange triggers that are overly flexible or require a lot of clarifying clauses, that's probably too much to allow.
If I had my druthers, I wouldn't allow a 5 feet step at all to avoid the problem of using a cheap ready to negate an incoming attack. If you want to move from your spot, you can ready a move action. You might decide to only move 5 feet, but that's your choice.
Again, thanks for all the input everyone.
I am just going to allow the fighter (or whoever) to continue up to his movement rate, after the readied action, in the scenario I presented. I think that is the best way to resolve the issue.
But, I still think this rule needs to be fixed, or at least clarified.
One reason that gives me pause to just accept that a fighter can keep moving after the interrupt, is the Step Up feat. You see, the wizard is interrupting the ATTACK, not the movement. In my eyes, if anyone can just continue moving after the have started an attack and gets interrupted by a readied 5 ft. Step, then there would be no need at all for the Step Up feat.
This is why I think this is still a overlooked flaw in the game mechanics. It seems like the only fix is a house rule.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Step Up allows you to move when it's not your turn to follow a 5' stepping person. This is continuing your interrupted action.
Step Up allows you to move when it's not your turn to follow a 5' stepping person. This is continuing your interrupted action.
Ahhh....duh, me. I don't know why I never noticed that....
Your readied action occurs immediately before the action that triggered it, and your initiative is adjusted to just before the person whose action triggered yours.
Scenario 2
Fighter and wizard are 30 feet apart.
Wizard wins initiative, readies an action to cast a spell if fighter gets within 10 feet of the wizard.
Fighter readies an action to move if the wizard moves.
Fighter moves 20 feet towards the wizard, fighter's action is now interrupted (paused.)
Wizard's readied action triggers, moves 5 feet. Wizard's readied action is now interrupted (paused.)
Fighter's readied action triggers, and can now move 30 feet, moves right next to the wizard.
(unpause)Wizard finishes his readied action, with the option to cast a spell, or forego the spell.
(unpause)Fighter can finish his move action.
This scenario is invalid because of when a readied action can be taken.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Emphasis mine.
If the fighter is moving, it is still his turn (not after his turn) so his readied action is not yet available. If it were readied actions could be used to emulate spring attack. E.g, I ready an action to attack when I get within range of the orc - then I run past the orc.
As for other questions about the player readying an action getting additional actions that round - the answer is no. The readied action places your initiative to just before whatever is happening that triggered it.
For example, if the wizard has a init of 10, and the fighter takes an action because of something the wizard did, the fighter is now at init 10+. Readied action completes, wizard finishes his turn, init order continues counting down from 10 to 9, 8, 7, .... it hits zero and the new round starts. The fight will get to act before the wizard in the new round. In essence a readied action is very similar to the delay action, with the caveat that you can interrupt someone elses turn IF they trigger your condition (delay you have to undelay before someone else even begins to act, but there is no triggering condition limiting you).
Even if the fighter initially had a an init of 9 and readied his action the previous round, he doesn't get to go on init 9 in the same turn his action went off because his init is now 10+.
|
|
You may explicitly take a 5 foot step (not an action) as part of a readied action, as long as you did not previously move and the readied action itself does not involve movement.
You speak with much confidence when you speak with such authority. Can you tell me good sir what book and page number you're quoting from? I find it beneficial when quarl....debating with a enthusiastic player to provide official written documentation when ending or allowing them to realize their hopes and dreams.
You may explicitly take a 5 foot step (not an action) as part of a readied action, as long as you did not previously move and the readied action itself does not involve movement.You speak with much confidence when you speak with such authority. Can you tell me good sir what book and page number you're quoting from? I find it beneficial when quarl....debating with a enthusiastic player to provide official written documentation when ending or allowing them to realize their hopes and dreams.
CRB page 203, Combat - Special Initiative Actions - Ready - Readying an Action.
It's on the PRD in the same section.
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
If the fighter is moving, it is still his turn (not after his turn) so his readied action is not yet available.
I'd like to see an official answer to that. I think that text is more describing, in a general sense, what a readied action is. The text just below it then lays out the specifics.
If it were readied actions could be used to emulate spring attack. E.g, I ready an action to attack when I get within range of the orc - then I run past the orc.
I can't recall a situation where someone tried to trigger their own readied actions. The rules don't specifically say it is not allowed, but it seems like the intent of the rule is that someone or something else causes the trigger to occur, not the character them self.
For example. "I ready an action that when I step in this square I take another action" I wouldn't allow as I wouldn't consider that an appropriate trigger.
This scenario is invalid because of when a readied action can be taken.
So imagine this scenario:
Wizard wins initiative. Readies to cast a fireball at Fighter if Fighter moves within 30 feet of Wizard.
Fighter readies an action to distract Wizard (“if she starts casting a spell”). Then moves forward 20 ft., triggering Wizard's fireball.
Are you saying the Fighter's readied action does not trigger because it is technically still his turn?
RAW, there are two iffy solutions.
(Assuming 5' reach, lack of feats, etc.)
-A standoff. Perhaps dramatic with description, it's ultimately lame.
-Fighter steps up and readies to attack when the Wizard takes any action at all. Whatever it is, it's on the Wizard's turn and he can't not go, and if he attempts to ready again, the Fighter attacks before the Wizard actually readies. As I said, iffy, but of equal merit to the Wizard's rules-bending.
Edit to add: And if the Wizard delays (does nothing) then he'll have to reset his initiative at the top of the next round, re-delay, and when it comes to the Fighter who didn't get triggered, he goes on his normal turn against a non-readied Wizard.
Cheers.
If the wizard is 5ft stepping under the condition that the fighter attacks, then... the fighter's attack still goes through. The check for valid target is only done when initiating an attack, which happens before the readied action of the wizard.
So the sequence of events is
Wizard readies.
Fighter moves in.
Fighter starts attack.
Wizard moves and casts spell.
Spell resolves.
Fighter finishes attack.
Attack is resolved.
Weird? Ya. But readied actions do weird things.
No. Cleave is a special action and the conditions for that action are checked at the moment you begin your action. At that moment, all of the available targets are checked to make sure they adjacent to each other and within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step in the middle of the action and check conditions again. If you do not have two targets within reach, adjacent to each other at the start of the attack, you could not even attempt to make an attack using Cleave.
This answer originally appeared in the 9/25/12 Paizo blog.
Checking valid targets only happens when you initiate the action, and not at any later point.
|
Cleave: Can I take a 5-foot step in the middle of my attempt to use the Cleave feat, to bring another foe within reach?
No. Cleave is a special action and the conditions for that action are checked at the moment you begin your action. At that moment, all of the available targets are checked to make sure they adjacent to each other and within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step in the middle of the action and check conditions again. If you do not have two targets within reach, adjacent to each other at the start of the attack, you could not even attempt to make an attack using Cleave.This answer originally appeared in the 9/25/12 Paizo blog.
Checking valid targets only happens when you initiate the action, and not at any later point.
LOL it is a totally unrelated comment.
You check if the target is valid when you start the attack, right, but a ready action say:
The action occurs (1)just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, (2)you interrupt the other character[b]. (3)[b]Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
(1) and (2) mean that the readied action is done and completed before the other character get to do any of his action;
(3) mean that you have to check if the acting character is still able to complete his action. The target is in range? Good. The target isn't in range? No attack.Most GM will allow a character with movement left from his move action to close the gap, but no GM (beside you) will suddenly give his weapon with the reach ability.
(1) and (2) mean that the readied action is done and completed before the other character get to do any of his action;
(3) mean that you have to check if the acting character is still able to complete his action. The target is in range? Good. The target isn't in range? No attack.Most GM will allow a character with movement left from his move action to close the gap, but no GM (beside you) will suddenly give his weapon with the reach ability.
Most GMs are wrong?
Interesting.
The fighter's move action is over. He started an attack action already. He cannot go back in time and restart an earlier action that has already been fully resolved. Any GM who rules that way is clearly wrong.
(3) asks if he is capable, not if the target is still valid. He already checked for valid target, and the target was and thus is valid. Now, is he still capable? Ie conscious and alive and capable of making an attack? Yes? Attack resolves.
I don’t rule it that way in my games, but it is RAW. I have houserules for a reason.
|
|
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).
You have taken something totally out of context (an explanation about how cleave work) and then applied it to a totally different contest, then you say that the rules don't work. It is your comprehension of how the rules interact that don't work.