I just noticed an exploit in the readied action rules:
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Therefore, it seems like the following should be allowed by RAW:
1) Use your turn to ready an action to make a melee attack if someone tries to attack you.
2) Before their attack goes off, you get your readied attack, and as part of the readied action 5-foot-step away. They've already finished their first move action, and can't 5-foot-step because they already moved, but they can't attack you because you are no longer adjacent.
3) Repeat steps 1 and 2.
It seems like this tactic would completely prevent anyone without natural reach from ever hitting you, and give you an attack on them! Am I missing something, or is the rule broken?
Design Manager
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Since your action occurs before his takes place, it seems like he could just continue to move as long as he still had movement available at the time you hit him.
I could be wrong though.
Either way, you're sacrificing your chance to ever get a full attack in exchange for getting a single standard action attack and preventing 1 enemy from completing his attack action against you, 1 time. Doesn't seem super broken to me.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Your scenario requires that they use a move action to approach you before attacking. After you've done this once, they're only 5ft away, so the second time they just follow you with a 5ft step of their own. Now you're left taking single attacks while they get full-attacks. Congratulations?
If you're only facing one opponent, it can be very useful.
Two or more with 5-foot reach... Not so much:
Round 1. You ready your action.
Enemy 1 strolls in to smack at you.
You take your readied attack, and step away.
Enemy 2 moves up next to you (not directly in front) and attacks you.
Round 2. You ready your action.
Enemy 1 moves into flanking position.
You are now unable to continue using this tactic.
Your scenario requires that they use a move action to approach you before attacking. After you've done this once, they're only 5ft away, so the second time they just follow you with a 5ft step of their own. Now you're left taking single attacks while they get full-attacks. Congratulations?
The second time...they take their five foot step...start to attack...
...and you interupt them to take your attack before they do, then five-foot step away.
The enemy has now already used a five-foot step, so it cannot use a move action to actually go anywhere else as it now continues its turn and stares angrily at you while doing nothing without reach.
Congratulations!
Your opponent could also move up to you and then ready his own attack with a trigger of you doing ANYTHING. Bingo, he gets to whack you when your turn comes around, because doing anything (even delaying or readying again) triggers his attack.
Your scenario requires that they use a move action to approach you before attacking. After you've done this once, they're only 5ft away, so the second time they just follow you with a 5ft step of their own. Now you're left taking single attacks while they get full-attacks. Congratulations?
The combo still works if they're only 5 feet away, though.
1) You ready an attack against their attack.
2) They 5-foot-step toward you and try to attack.
3) Your attack goes off, you 5-foot-step away, and since they already 5-foot-stepped they can't move that round, and you are no longer adjacent so they can't hit you.
The only thing that I can see stopping this (assuming you face a single foe whose only available weapon is a non-reach melee weapon) is if they can (eventually) back you into a wall.
It does mean you will never full attack, but it was actually intended as a way for casters to avoid getting hit (see the second page of this thread.)
Since your action occurs before his takes place, it seems like he could just continue to move as long as he still had movement available at the time you hit him.
Your action doesn't go off until he tries to attack. Once he tries to attack, his move action is over, and moving again requires a second action.
Your opponent could also move up to you and then ready his own attack with a trigger of you doing ANYTHING. Bingo, he gets to whack you when your turn comes around, because doing anything (even delaying or readying again) triggers his attack.
Thanks, you just won the thread! It did seem too good to be true...
It still stops them from ever full-attacking you, though.
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Design Manager
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Since your action occurs before his takes place, it seems like he could just continue to move as long as he still had movement available at the time you hit him.Your action doesn't go off until he tries to attack. Once he tries to attack, his move action is over, and moving again requires a second action.
But your Readied action happens before he actually attacks. He hasn't taken a standard action yet, and the rules for readied actions specifically allow them to continue their actions once you've taken your readied action.
This has come up in our group before. Our ruling was that if the attacker still had movement left, they could just step up and whack you.
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Yar!
The readied action interrupts the triggering action. If he is still able to, he may continue the action.
If you are out of reach, he is unable to perform that action... does that mean he can change his intended action, or must he swing at air?
If he can change it, then he's likely use his standard action to move again, this time to be right beside you.
You are now pooched. You cannot 5' step away and ready the same action, as you can only make one 5' step each round and only if you do not otherwise move.
At best (with this ruling), this will only negate the first melee attack against you, and that's it.
~P
I actually don't like this tactic because it sounds just basically dumb and super cheesy, so I don't want it to work and be real as something someone can get away with using...
That being said, I'm not sure you can ready an action on someone else doing "anything".
Well, our ruling pretty much put an end to trying to cheese this up anyway.
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It still stops them from ever full-attacking you, though.
Just delays it a bit:
Turn 1:
Defender readies.
Attacker moves up, goes to swing, gets hit, defender steps away.
Turn 2:
Defender readies.
Attacker moves up, readies an attack himself (trigger, defender attempts any action) because he's seen that trick once now.
Turn 3:
Defender (Pow, gets hit by readied action) readies.
Attacker attempts full attack. First attack of full attack triggers defender's attack and step. Attacker hasn't moved, so he gets to five foot step (once) before or between or after any attack in his full attack. Attacker five foot steps and full-attacks defender.
You lost me a bit on the (pow) part, but otherwise I totally see what you're saying on the attacker's 5-foot step during the full-round action attacks.
Ok, a lot of good points have been brought up that I hadn't considered. It doesn't look like this works at all except against the first attack.
It seems like the actual play would go like this (starting with Defender and Attacker 20 ft. apart):
1) Defender readies an attack.
2) Attacker moves and tries to attack.
3) Defender hits Attacker, moves back.
4) Attacker takes a move action to move 5 feet, adjacent to Defender.
5) Defender (now adjacent to Attacker) readies an attack.
6) Attacker tries to full attack.
7) Defender hit Attacker, moves back.
8) Attacker, as part of his full attack, takes a 5-foot-step to move adjacent to defender, and then gets all of his attacks.
I don't see any way for Defender to both make his attack and avoid getting full-attacked.
On a related note, can we do something similar to nuke someone at low levels by using a reach weapon?
Assume a first level Fighter with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon. Assume the enemy is outside of your reach, and you go first.
Fighter: Ready on opponent attempting to move adjacent to you.
Opponent: Move forward to hit the Fighter... moves into threatened area, and attempts to move further to end up adjacent
Attack of Opportunity: Opponent leaves a threatened square (resolves before the opponent actually changes squares).
Readied Action: Attack opponent (still in reach), then 5 foot step away.
Opponent: Completes the attempted movement, ending up in the Fighter's threatened area again. Given another 5 feet of movement, could move adjacent to attack, but doing so would provoke a second AoO.
This will only work once (even if the Fighter accepts an AoO to move so the opponent needs to cross through his threatened area again, the Fighter will not be able to 5 foot step away as part of the readied action), but it's still 3 attacks in a single round, which can be pretty huge at first level.
Does this work the way I think it does?
I don't see any way for Defender to both make his attack and avoid getting full-attacked.
The defender just needs a way to get an attack in other than a readied action.
1) defender fires an arrow and readies a move action.
2) attacker moves and tries to attack, getting an AoO against AC+mobility
3) rinse
4) repeatYou can do something similar using reach weapon AoOs for your defense, though in that case both parties can boost their AC with mobility. The attacker, though, probably won't have built for this scenario while the defender would have.
As an archer the defender can use the vital strike chain and focused shot to get a damage advantage. The attacker cannot mitigate his single attack limit with vital strike or a lance charge because he's only getting AoOs, not standard action attacks.
This isn't melee immunity, but being able to reliably get the +4 AC from mobility and limit your enemy to single AoOs while you vital strike is a winning trade.
Readying an action is a standard action regardless of the type of action you are readying.
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Also do not forget the "Step Up" feat:
Step Up (Combat)
You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.
You are not "committed" to an attack if the circumstances change before you are able to take it.Hmmm, so are you saying that if a character does ready an action to, say, shoot an arrow at a spellcaster (or even worse, ready an action to cast Dispel Magic as a counterspell) and the caster starts to cast, and the readied action hits them, the caster should be able to just say "lol, psyche, the circumstances changed based on the result of your readied action, so I'm just going to shoot you with my crossbow instead" and not even risk losing the spell?
Here's the distinction:
Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
In your case, the spellcaster is still capable of casting even after he gets hit, so he has no choice but to do so. In the case of someone trying to attack but not being able to, they are not still capable of doing so, and so they "get their action back."
BUT, I don't think it's technically allowed to A) take your move action, B) declare a standard action (attacking), and then when your target moves, C) say "lol jk I wasn't done moving" and tack another 5 feet onto the move action. By RAW I believe you'd have to take a second move action to move those remaining 5 feet.
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As far as interrupting casting is concerned, this is from the CRB:
If you take damage while trying to cast a spell, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting. If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).
Thus, the spell is lost if the readied action does damage and the concentration check is failed. There is no going back and choosing not to cast the spell.
As it pertains to this situation I would say you started attacking (started swinging your wielded weapon or whatever)before the readied action thus you would continue that swing even if it's into thin air.
I think the only way the attacker could move again in the same round is if they had the Spring Attack feat and movement spaces left.
Another option for the attacker in the second round, after he has seen the tactic, is to maybe bluff his attack then attack after, if that's even possible. I don't know what the rules would be for that.
The GM could also do this with NPC's. Better yet he could deem that you are not a threat and go after the more squishy party members. Why you are running your buddies are dying. If you go in to attack then the enemy get a full attack against you on its turn.
I think that we have established that at least the first melee attack can be dodged using a ready action and 5-foot step. However can this be use to dodge an arrow or ray attack?
I think that we have established that at least the first melee attack can be dodged using a ready action and 5-foot step. However can this be use to dodge an arrow or ray attack?
No, the reason it works against melee attacks is that by the time you step away they've already used their move action, and they can't reach you without taking another move action. But for ranged attacks, they would try to attack you, you would step away, and then they would just attack you in the square you're in now. They aren't forced to fire into the same square they were originally intending to, they're only forced to make the ranged attack if it's possible.
... attacker pulls out his reach weapon and whacks you. Your attack doesn't go off, you lost your action and he's 10ft away for the next full attack action.
And yupp, it only works if the enemy doesn't have movement left. There's no such thing as "he used his move action and can't move on".
And yupp, it only works if the enemy doesn't have movement left. There's no such thing as "he used his move action and can't move on".
I don't think this is true. By the time you declare a standard action, your move action is finished. You can't take a standard action in the middle of a move action.
I also don't think it will work against someone who charges. Charging is an attack which includes movement. As soon as the charge starts you get your readied action. They are currently out of range. You take your 5 foot step. Their charge continues and as long as you don't step behind cover or move out of their range, they hit you. If the have pounce, they full attack you.
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I also don't think it will work against someone who charges. Charging is an attack which includes movement. As soon as the charge starts you get your readied action. They are currently out of range. You take your 5 foot step. Their charge continues and as long as you don't step behind cover or move out of their range, they hit you. If the have pounce, they full attack you.
You don't ready for "when they start charging", you ready for "when he attacks me". The charge action reads:
After moving, you may make a single melee attack.
Once the attack is attempted, the movement is already over.
Technically if he was charging you he never makes an attack action, and as such you cannot say that the charging person has ended his movement part of the charge and is doing the attack part of the charge, as it is all one action.
Ready action states that he gets to continue the action afterwards, which was the charge action, so unless you stepped out of range of his charge movement he will be able to follow you completely and make his attack.
Alternatively we could read the line "Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action", as meaning that he gets to do all the stuff that he normally would do, even though your 5 foot step moves you out of reach now, ie that he still gets his attack against you. This is ofcourse only if we by "action" do not refer to the action types in the game, but the actual word action.
So although i agree that the second interpretation is weak, i dont think you can weasel out of the charge one.