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So you like playing with level 1-6 abilities on your martials... that's fine Raith Shadar, some of us would like 8+ abilities so we can have a proper foundation. I get that a box is good enough for you because you like martials roughing it, but some of us want that heating and showers that the casters get, since they keep telling us that we have the same income level.
Stunning Assault is a lvl 16 ability. Buidling feat chains generally take longer than lvl 6 though the pre-reqs are lower. Some of the feats like Power Attack scale
Some of the feats like Power Attack do scale. But very few and they all should. Taking 8 feats to get Stunning Assault at 16th level...when a wizard has had access to throwing area effect Dazing Spells since what? Level 7? Off the top of my head, Dazing Glitterdust would be Level 9? Really? That is balanced? Tell me how it is balance for a Wizard to take one feat to start doing area effect Dazing and it should take a Fighter 8 feats...and lets call it Dazing Assault instead of Stunning Assault...so 8 feats and level 11...vs 1 feat for a wizard. I don't want to hear that "Wizards are supposed to do that! Fighters don't Daze people with swords that is only something wizards can do...be thankful you can spend 8 feats to get that at 11th!"
You ever been hit by anything? Not a sword or greatclub...anything...a fist a foul ball? Anything...guess what...you are probably dazed right off. That is reality. I train and smack you with a sword...guess what I have a chance of dazing you...and you have a chance of dazing me. Please don't try to tell me that everyone who trains as a martial is able to resist better getting hit with a sword and dazed a little. You will.
You do realize that fighters get high level class abilities as well?
There is no save against Intimidate. Why should I have a problem with a no save ability that can cause someone to be shaken?
Really? I'm guessing you mean Dazzling Display. A two feat chain...oh wait I need another feat so I can use STR instead of CHA for my intimidate. Make that 3 feats. 3 feats...it better not have a saving throw for that cost.
Now how many feats does it take a wizard to give someone...or better yet...a group of someones the shaken debuff? What level does that happen? When does a wizard get better at doing it than a Fighter ever could? Respond and let me know how a fighter is overbalanced...or how this makes everything else okay simply because a fighter can do this one thing...at close range...'better' than a wizard? I really want to know what you point is. It sounds like you started one and didn't finish.
You sound like you don't play many high level games. Martials do have high level powers through weapons and magic items. Every martial I know has access to a flight item. Generally they wear some pretty nifty armor with some nice abilities that add useful abilities. Their weapons are pretty awesome.
You seem to be attempting to tie everything to feats. The combination of feats, class abilities, and magic items are very impressive and allow characters to do quite a bit.
You are absolutely right. They can do quite a bit.
How much does that flying item you say they all have cost? What level did they get it at? Why does a martial character need to be able to ignore gravity, in your opinion, to be decent? Don't you see the problem with that? Toss all magic items out the window...for wizards and fighters. Tell me what amazing things a fighter can do. Not 'nifty' things. Amazing things. Especially amazing things that cost no feats. Like Fly does for wizards. You are making no point at all really. Also, exactly which class ability that a Fighter gets compares in anyway to ANY high level spell? I bolded your comment so you know what you said that makes me ask.
Now you expect to have as much flexibility as wizards or clerics? You can switch out abilities that do what they can do on a daily basis and use them with no limit? While at the same time having limitless physical damage that exceeds what a caster can do?
Or you going to make the claim that your standard caster can do as much damage as a martial? Which I know from experience is a complete and utter fabrication.
A fabrication? I honestly have no idea how that could be. Please, I am not being snarky or anything at all...I want to know how this is done. I'll even give you a scenario. You pick the CR of the monsters. A horde of 100 monsters...whatever CR you want. On a flat open field. Everyone starts 1000ft from each other. Tell me how the Martial out does the wizard in damage and in number of actions cause I really do want to see how that is done.
Martials can do a lot. The majority of my players prefer martials or martial hybrids. It doesn't bother them a bit that they can't beat a wizard in one on one combat if he is prepared to stop them. They are quite happy with the 200+ point crits and being able to do something every single round without losing a resource. It's fun for them.
Why you feel deprived I have no idea. The martials in the groups I run are satisfied. They rarely have trouble defeating enemies.
Okay...what are they playing? You say martials or martial hybrids. Let me know what they are playing. This general statement doesn't help me understand your point.
It doesn't bother them that they can't beat a wizard one-on-one if he is prepared to stop them. Very well. How does a Fighter, by himself, (this is one-on-one combat after all) prepare himself to stop a wizard from owning him? How many of those preparations have to do with some magic item and nothing to do with their feats or class abilities? I bet all of them. Or another amazing chain of 8 feats to allow it to work maybe. Level 10 vs Level 10. If you can't come up with a way for a Fighter to be able to prepare himself with just his class abilities and feats vs a wizard with his class abilities, feats and spells. There is a disparity. But I'd love to hear how a Fighter can do this and still be viable when the horde of kobolds comes down from the hills.
You say they rarely have trouble defeating enemies. Okay...is that because of their class abilities and feats...or because they have a wizard and cleric buffing them?
Also I honestly want to know how a martial gets a 200+ crit damage attack. Please explain. I'm guessing you mean a full round attack all crits, with a plethora of buffs. Cause I don't see it. And that sounds like a complete fabrication to me. One attack. Not a full round attack. Put everything on equal footing. Damage output and action economy. A wizard can toss two spells a round and walk 30 ft. The fighter needs to do that 30 ft walk too or your example is meaningless.
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Enlarge person grants you reach...and +damage and +Str for a -2 dex -1 AC and -1 Attack...A 1st Level Spell. One Spell. Can last a minimum of 6 rounds or attacks.
Lunge is on activation, gives you reach and -2 AC. Better. But also a feat I can only get at 6th Level. There is a disparity here. It is better than Enlarge Person...but also comes FIVE levels later.
Enlarge Person is far better than Lunge, because it lasts all round over (and also gives you increased weapon damage). This means you get an AoO for any non-reach enemies trying to attack you in melee, as they close to you.
For a medium-sized human fighter with 18 strength and a greatsword, enlarge person gives:
+1d6+1 damage, -1 init, -2 AC, +2CMB, +1 CMD, 5ft of reach for the full round.
Lunge gives:
5ft of reach on your turn, -2 AC for the full round.Lunge is worse by far.
You know what. You are absolutely right. In my head I forgot Lunge doesn't last all round. That -2 to AC sure does though. A 6th level feat trumped by a 1st level spell. Disparity.
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Um...do you realize giants don't have the great to hit roll against an armored opponent. If they are separated, he flies to each one and kills them one at a time using them as cover.
Okay. Now do it with and equal EL of kobolds. Just try it. See if that great Fighter or whatever he is can win that fight. He can't. A wizard can.
GM Fiat? Giants aren't the most intelligent creatures. What exactly were you expecting them to do? They engaged him. He cut them down in hand to hand combat. GM Fiat had nothing to do with it. Do you play giants as these master tacticians spreading out in battle to perfectly surround the fighter as they assume the smaller warrior can beat them? I don't play them that way. He certainly isn't set up to be easily hit by ranged attacking giants.
Which giants aren't intelligent? Many are very much so. At least as smart as an average human battlefield commander, able to realize that we don't get close to that guy. Everyone throw rocks.
Again, do this with an equal EL of kobolds. Your Fighter will lose. A wizard would not.
Why would a summoned creature have a better chance? They don't do as much damage as the two-hander fighter, nowhere near as much.
They don't need to. The wizard will be doing more damage than the two-hander and the summons will hold them at bay. Or just all be Lantern Archons and sit way back and blast your giants to death while the wizard sits on a cloud above, trimming his nails and occasionally casting a couple more groups of Lantern Archons to blast the giants some more.
Soldiers acting stupidly? What were their options? Run away? They couldn't stand within this 15 foot reach as he smashed them all.Whirlwind Attack enlarged with Lunge allows him to hit everything within 15 feet.
Again...they stay back and throw rocks. Your fighter will lose. They will take losses. But it doesn't matter what a range increment is or if you are proficient in a weapon, a 20 hits, a 20 always hits.
Again take that same fighter, put him up against an army of a 1000 kobolds with slings by himself. Feel free to drink as many potions as you want and use all the magic items he has equipped. Not only will the sling stones end him eventually just based on the odds, they will end him just by piling on top of him until he can't breathe.
A wizard on the other hand. No sweat. Invisibility, flight, wind wall. Summon a few monsters. Watch them slaughter the kobolds while trimming your nails. Or get involved and blow them up by the dozens. With fireballs. From 1400ft away.
You sound like you don't have much experience with the high level game. You think a fighter is that lacking in resources at high level? They aren't. He will pick his battlefield. Show up with potions or rings that allow him to do things like fly, haste himself, and move around the field whacking giants out if they want to spread out and try to do him in with ranged attacks.The fighters I run with don't stand there like idiots either. They are far stronger than the common giant at high level. They are far better equipped. They come in ready to whack giants out. They spread out and used ranged attacks, they die slower, but they still die.
Again try it with an army of kobolds. Your theoretical fighters will die. And be bored while it happens.
The issue isn't that a Fighter can't kill giants. They can. Eventually.
The issue is the disparity. After say Level 10, you don't need Fighters. Make a new caster at the same level. You'll be more powerful and capable of winning and able to handle basically any eventuality and if you are unprepared, escape easily and come back tomorrow prepared for what ever it was.
A Fighter does not match this level, even a little. A Fighters 'High Level Abilites' are equal to, or worse than a low level spell.
Lunge and Enlarge Person. 6th level feat, 1st level spell. And Lunge is still WORSE.
Whirlwind+lunge+stunning assault vs Dazing Fireball - 16th level + 8 feats, 11th level, one feat. (Also Dazing Spell has no prereqs. You can start dazing people at what...5th level if you want? (Early if you start min maxing feats, traits, racial abilities) 7th is a litte more realistic, unless you just want to daze something. A fighter has to wait until Level 16 and take 8 feats? Level 7 and one feat vs Level 16 and 8 feats...OH WAIT DAZE IS A 0-LEVEL SPELL! Silly me. And you get Daze Monster at Level 3. [sarcasm] So I guess that makes sense. Level 1 you can daze. But hitting someone, HARD, with a club or large piece of iron, won't daze anyone until level 16. Of course![/sarcasm]
DISPARITY. LOOK AT IT. LOOK. REALLY LOOK. If it isn't clear I will try to explain it better.
Now tell me what a Fighter gets that is ever better than something a wizard can do. Hit things you say? True Strike. (basically never miss) Magic Missile. Never miss with multiple targets. THESE ARE 1ST LEVEL SPELLS. AND A WIZARD IS USUALLY TRYING TO HIT TOUCH WHEN THEY DO ROLE. They don't need that much in BAB to hit a Giants Touch AC. Seriously.
Just because a Fighter can eventually accomplish those things, other than the army of kobolds...they can't win that fight. But there is a huge disparity between a Wizard and a Fighter. That is the issue. They don't even need to be equals at Level 20. But if a Fighter starts becoming obsolete at level 6, then a Wizard should only start coming in to his full power at Level 14. They should support and work well together up to then and honestly...a Fighter isn't that much better than a Wizard at Level 1-6. So a Wizard shouldn't be that much better Levels 14-20. Period. That is balance. The balance does not even remotely exist.
So you like playing with level 1-6 abilities on your martials... that's fine Raith Shadar, some of us would like 8+ abilities so we can have a proper foundation. I get that a box is good enough for you because you like martials roughing it, but some of us want that heating and showers that the casters get, since they keep telling us that we have the same income level.
Stunning Assault is a lvl 16 ability. Buidling feat chains generally take longer than lvl 6 though the pre-reqs are lower. Some of the feats like Power Attack scale
You do realize that fighters get high level class abilities as well?
There is no save against Intimidate. Why should I have a problem with a no save ability that can cause someone to be shaken?
You sound like you don't play many high level games. Martials do have high level powers through weapons and magic items. Every martial I know has access to a flight item. Generally they wear some pretty nifty armor with some nice abilities that add useful abilities. Their weapons are pretty awesome.
You seem to be attempting to tie everything to feats. The combination of feats, class abilities, and magic items are very impressive and allow characters to do quite a bit.
Now you expect to have as much flexibility as wizards or clerics? You can switch out abilities that do what they can do on a daily basis and use them with no limit? While at the same time having limitless physical damage that exceeds what a caster can do?
Or you going to make the claim that your standard caster can do as much damage as a martial? Which I know from experience is a complete and utter fabrication.
Martials can do a lot. The majority of my players prefer martials or martial hybrids. It doesn't bother them a bit that they can't beat a wizard in one on one combat if he is prepared to stop them. They are quite happy with the 200+ point crits and being able to do something every single round without losing a resource. It's fun for them.
Why you feel deprived I have...
I routinely play and GM from levels 1-20 so I have both a player and GM perspective on the martial versus caster disparity. At high levels, the caster are doing virtually all the heavy lifting for the campaign, using divinations to move uncover the plot, overcoming obstacles by simply ignoring distance between them, creating passages where there were none, dispelling magic that would otherwise cripple the party, oh ya and they also contribute more in combat, since at high levels a fighter is only ever going to be getting to move - single attack (ranged attacks will never work against an opposing caster unless you have casters to help out again having them do all the heavy lifting), unless a caster has rendered the enemy unable to move.
Now I don't know what a "standard" caster is to you. But you seem to think a 200+ damage critical is impressive. To me a "standard" Wizard can easily deal 200+ damage with aoe spells in one round, while still getting a move action. And they can do that 8+ times easily (really you get tons of slots after 11th, I've literally never seen a high level caster run out). Usually though, rather then deal that much damage, casters prefer to deal only 150+ and also Daze their targets, or better yet ignore damage all together and simply toss out a spell that makes the enemy easy for their summoned/called/animated minions to clean up.
I don't give much thought to feats other then that Pathfinder breaking up martial feats into unwieldy chains while leaving metamagic a single feat contributes to martials being weaker. Turning feat chains into a single feat that scales would be a much way to help martials. And while I don't expect them to be as versatile as a Wizard or Cleric when you consider how stupidly versatile a Wizard or Cleric is (just scroll through their spell list), I would like more versatility then move - single attack.
Again, your happy with martials being level 1-6 and you and your players are fine with not being able to fight wizard one and one. That's great for you, you can continue to play characters that are ineffective against casters if that doesn't bother you. But that does bother some of us, since My level 10 Fighter should be able to have a 50/50 chance against a level 10 Wizard, since you know their both equal CR.
Martial characters should be able to be fantastic.Mine always are. Why aren't yours?
Do you count rogues as martials? If so, then no. I've had a rogue build flop on me (TWF, no feint).
My fighters were always fun to play (except 1 who only existed for a round do to GM BS) and that includes 3.5 play time.
EDIT: My fighter were always FANTASTIC!
You know what. You are absolutely right. In my head I forgot Lunge doesn't last all round. That -2 to AC sure does though. A 6th level feat trumped by a 1st level spell. Disparity.
Lunge stacks with that spell and has unlimited uses. Lunge+great cleave is good for clearing mooks who weren't going to hit you anyways. That combo could potentially hit 24 targets.
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Martial characters should be able to be fantastic.Mine always are. Why aren't yours?Do you count rogues as martials? If so, then no. I've had a rogue build flop on me (TWF, no feint).
My fighters were always fun to play (except 1 who only existed for a round do to GM BS) and that includes 3.5 play time.
EDIT: My fighter were always FANTASTIC!
What is fantastic is subjective no matter what you play. I don't play with specific builds all the time, nor do I expect them to always work as expected. A build that failed you is nothing in the scheme of things. I have played many a rogue in Pathfinder and as long as I am having fun and contributing to the party in a way that I am happy with then he is fantastic.
What is fantastic is subjective no matter what you play. I don't play with specific builds all the time, nor do I expect them to always work as expected. A build that failed you is nothing in the scheme of things. I have played many a rogue in Pathfinder and as long as I am having fun and contributing to the party in a way that I am happy with then he is fantastic.Martial characters should be able to be fantastic.Mine always are. Why aren't yours?Do you count rogues as martials? If so, then no. I've had a rogue build flop on me (TWF, no feint).
My fighters were always fun to play (except 1 who only existed for a round do to GM BS) and that includes 3.5 play time.
EDIT: My fighter were always FANTASTIC!
I meant fantastic in as saved the world, killed dragons single-handily, left a mountain of slain evil in his wake, and was the party fop/puzzle-solver with a rich and compelling back story. And that was a 3.5 fighter using only the PH.
My rogue ran into the problems of corners and cramped spaces.
When the martial cuts down those gargantuan creatuers in less than six seconds, that is equally, if not more, impressive."Fun" is kind of subjective in general. There's at least half a dozen goals people have when people play the game, and which one is more prevalent changes from person to person. Many changes to the core game are going to make things less fun for one person and more fun for another due simply to player preference. Some might say that wizards getting some spells removed would be less fun, but perhaps those spells weren't actually fun in the first place, or the presence of those spells made things less fun for the non-wizards. Taking things away from people doesn't always mean ruining their fun.I'm not anti-fun, I'm just like, "Man, if you're going to warp the fabric of the universe or something, i think that should be, like, at least a full round action or something."Heh.
A high level martial is far more visually impressive than a caster (except perhaps an evoker).Maybe than a caster who hasn't cast anything.
If they have? Well, tell that to Frightful Aspect. Or Form of the Dragon. Or Sunburst. Or Storm of Vengeance. Or Rift of Ruin, or Wall of Lava, or Phantasmal Revenge, or Plague Storm, or Giant Shape.
Or just good old Summon Monster. It's pretty visually impressive to call forth a gargantuan beast in the midst of battle.
Etc, etc, etc. There's far, far too many spells with badass visual effects to keep listing them all.
not as mich as when the wizard sends that creature (otlr the fighter fir that matter) to a Maze in a new dimension he just created with a wave of his hand, no save allowed
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I guess in an effort to get this back on track a bit...
Sounds like people wouldn't mind martials as much if:
1. Feat trees were reduced to one feat that scaled or just gave you the benefit of the whole tree. Greater Cleave from the start, instead of Cleave, and overwriting with Greater Cleave etc...
2. Feats stacked and were usable with most everything. Vital Strike with Spring Attack for example...
3. Martials got more skill points. I agree with this a lot.
4. Some of the Feats came earlier to compare with a comparable magic spell. Dazing and Stunning Assault, sooner than 11th and 16th for example.
5.??? Got anything to add here?
I would be okay with Martials and what they currently CAN get...if they worked together. I don't expect to be able to Whirlwind Attack+Lunge+Vital Strike+Power Attack+Trip+Disarm+Sunder...But maybe some of those at least working together.
Oh yeah...guess people want also:
6. Crane Wing like it was.
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not as mich as when the wizard sends that creature (otlr the fighter fir that matter) to a Maze in a new dimension he just created with a wave of his hand, no save allowedWhen the martial cuts down those gargantuan creatuers in less than six seconds, that is equally, if not more, impressive."Fun" is kind of subjective in general. There's at least half a dozen goals people have when people play the game, and which one is more prevalent changes from person to person. Many changes to the core game are going to make things less fun for one person and more fun for another due simply to player preference. Some might say that wizards getting some spells removed would be less fun, but perhaps those spells weren't actually fun in the first place, or the presence of those spells made things less fun for the non-wizards. Taking things away from people doesn't always mean ruining their fun.I'm not anti-fun, I'm just like, "Man, if you're going to warp the fabric of the universe or something, i think that should be, like, at least a full round action or something."Heh.
A high level martial is far more visually impressive than a caster (except perhaps an evoker).Maybe than a caster who hasn't cast anything.
If they have? Well, tell that to Frightful Aspect. Or Form of the Dragon. Or Sunburst. Or Storm of Vengeance. Or Rift of Ruin, or Wall of Lava, or Phantasmal Revenge, or Plague Storm, or Giant Shape.
Or just good old Summon Monster. It's pretty visually impressive to call forth a gargantuan beast in the midst of battle.
Etc, etc, etc. There's far, far too many spells with badass visual effects to keep listing them all.
Why is that better?
Fighter kills the target while Maze does not and the creature is able to escape with an Intelligence check DC 20, not very hard to make when you are fighting creatures at that level.
I find it odd how folks still haven't realized that Casters do more damage than Martials far more consistently, without the need to waddle up next to the monster and hope the monster doesn't just move away or be unable to get next to them. As long as they need to move no farther than 5 feet to get their full attack, a Martial will never deal as much damage as a Caster.
Also, snapping his fingers and causing the monster to explode with fire is pretty visually impressive.
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Do you count rogues as martials? If so, then no. I've had a rogue build flop on me (TWF, no feint).Martial characters should be able to be fantastic.Mine always are. Why aren't yours?
I once played a rogue who's stealth was so high that PC with the lowest perception didn't realize his party had a rogue.
I count that as fantastic.
Do you count rogues as martials? If so, then no. I've had a rogue build flop on me (TWF, no feint).Martial characters should be able to be fantastic.Mine always are. Why aren't yours?I once played a rogue who's stealth was so high that PC with the lowest perception didn't realize his party had a rogue.
I count that as fantastic.
It's a shame that you can't use stealth in bright light or normal light or towards creatures who treat other kinds of light as normal light.
It's a shame that you can't use stealth in bright light or normal light or towards creatures who treat other kinds of light as normal light.Do you count rogues as martials? If so, then no. I've had a rogue build flop on me (TWF, no feint).Martial characters should be able to be fantastic.Mine always are. Why aren't yours?I once played a rogue who's stealth was so high that PC with the lowest perception didn't realize his party had a rogue.
I count that as fantastic.
Yeah if you're a chump! Hellcat Stealth + Shadow Well for the win!
*Vanishes with his +34 Stealth check*
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It's a shame that you can't use stealth in bright light or normal light or towards creatures who treat other kinds of light as normal light.Do you count rogues as martials? If so, then no. I've had a rogue build flop on me (TWF, no feint).Martial characters should be able to be fantastic.Mine always are. Why aren't yours?I once played a rogue who's stealth was so high that PC with the lowest perception didn't realize his party had a rogue.
I count that as fantastic.
hellcat stealth says hi, hide in plane sight says hi, ninja trick says hi, ring of invisibility says hi, camouflage says hi.
Why is that better?
Fighter kills the target while Maze does not and the creature is...
Because of the "no save allowed" part
A fighter crit of 200 isn't that hard, FWIW. You just need to get to 50 base damage.
A 2H Weapon Fighter with a 30 Str deals +20 with a two handed weapon, +24 from Power attack, +5 weapon, +4 weapon mastery, and greatsword avg 7 is 60 damage.
His level 19 ability allows him to take a standard action for -5 to hit and auto-crit, meaning every hit is x4 damage if he's using a scythe or naginata. Bam, 200 damage, on command.
Otherwise, every crit with a x4 weapon is 200 points.
It's a little harder with other builds, because Str and Power Attack isn't so high (30 Str would be +15, PA +18 for +33 vs +44), but with Weapon Mastery and Weapon Spec adding +9, that gets you to 42, +5 for weapon is +47...you basically need to roll a 3 and with a x4 weapon (fighter/20 capstone to x4?), you've got 200 damage. All you have to do is crit and hit again and you're over 200.
For a one handed weapon, it's harder. PA is +12 and Str +10, for +22; +5 for weapon, +4 WM and +4 Spec is +35. Breaking 200 on a crit will be very difficult without significant damage boosts, but a x3 weapon will break 100 every time.
==Aelryinth
To approach this mechanically, I was curious what it would be like to remove all combat feats as they are now and move them into their own thing, "combat tricks" for lack of a better term. Add more than just the combat feats to really round out the options. Then, let all character pick a new trick whenever their BAB increases in addition to normal feat progression. Sure, casters will gain some benefit but 3/4 and full BAB classes will have greatly more. The thought is to let feats be feats of the extraordinary but tie combat prowess to how well the class is designed to fight.
What do you think?
Yeah, a fighter without her gear becomes a mere mortal.
Ah, good point. It's not exactly like fighters ever travel with clerics. Good argument.
Also I'm sure glad this fighter has access to a high-level cleric spell somehow.
You can't cast AMF on someone else.
Because of the "no save allowed" partWhy is that better?
Fighter kills the target while Maze does not and the creature is...
FWIW, your Ultimate Archmage of Awesome Cosmic Power doesn't get a save when the same-level fighter crits him with his masterwork greatsword while using vital strike in an antimagic field.
Really, in a world with such powerful magic and people using it so willy nilly, you'd think there'd be factories cranking out items of this stuff.
And how are you getting Ex flight so that you can actually get close to the caster? Because your pretty much limited to "have a mount with Ex flight" or play as a Strix. If you decide to go with a mount, even if it's a special mount, its going to get ripped to shreds by Conjuration spells even in the antimagic field and you won't even get close. If you are a strix, congratulations you've nerfed yourself with antimagic field and entered the range of the Wizards summoned/animated/called minions most of which are now stronger then you since you just took away all your strength buffs and magic gear, while their STR and natural armor are quite intact. Either way you never make it to the caster.
Oh and thats assuming the caster isn't level 17, because if they are they are immune to antimagic field. So, even if you are a strix that somehow can get past all the Wizards summons, you still have to contend with their AC, their miss chance, their mirror images, their defensive buffs. Oh and since you moved you only get 1 attack, make it count!
Seriously... I love when people bring antimagic field into a discussion about caster v. martial imbalances, because it makes it easy to gauge the level of system mastery everyone is operating with.
A fighter can keep up their DPR on a dead magic plane. Casters are pretty screwed.
At least there's that...
You know what's better then a Wizard working with a high level martial... a wizard working with another high level wizard. Seriously, I would value actual strategies that might help a martial fight a high level caster, but "Hey have the fight take place on a dead magic demiplane" is not constructive. Look if you have anything that might help a martial beat a caster besides "Hey get another caster!" please do tell, because otherwise your argument is Magic must fight Magic, which does nothing to help the martials.
(That is true Buri, but so do the Wizards animated creatures and summoned/called creatures while they last.)
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I love how the mere mention of antimagic field started an epic hurr durr over system mastery, when merely replacing "antimagic field" with "dead magic demiplane" makes everybody look silly.
But wait! Martials can't create dead magic demiplanes! Well, they can't create cloaks of resistance +5, for the most part. Is it really so far fetched to think of a high-level wizard working with a high-level martial? Anyway, this is tiring.
I don't see your point. Sure, a demiplane where magic doesn't work, hurt wizards. A demiplane where people can't be physically hurt, make fighters sad. If your point is "a GM can just toss a giant dinosaur-destroyer meteor to the planet if he wish", we agree. GM fiat -> all, and a GM can always play the "i'm the GM" trump card. Like saying "all gods died this morning in a god-slaying armaggedon. No cleric can cast spells now".
It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that casters >>>>>>>>>>>> fighters so badly, that you need to have system mastery blindness to not realize it.
"So, uh, I know you guys were wanting to fight, and I'm totally cool with it. Really, I am. But could we just go to my private dead magic demiplane first? No? You're sure? It'll be cool, I promise."I love how the mere mention of antimagic field started an epic hurr durr over system mastery, when merely replacing "antimagic field" with "dead magic demiplane" makes everybody look silly.
Hey now! He can get his caster friend to help him get there. EUREKA! I've solved the problem, clearly we should exile all martials to dead magic planes, because they are valuable and appreciated there. No need to keep posting here folks, I solved the problem.
The above is sarcasm.
Meh, this whole tangent started out as a half-hearted attempt at humor. I didn't mean to poke holes in anybody's self-assurance of system mastery.
That said, since fighters don't typically create their own magic items, but instead purchase these services from casters, fighters are in pretty bad trouble indeed, if we're really looking for ways fighters can beat casters without *any* assistance from casters.
Feel free to use all the magic items your Wealth by Level entitles you to, but "If I bring another person to the fight, I can maybe create a situation where you end in dead magic plane, maybe." is not anyone demanding you not have any assistance.
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Because of the "no save allowed" partWhy is that better?
Fighter kills the target while Maze does not and the creature is...
FWIW, your Ultimate Archmage of Awesome Cosmic Power doesn't get a save when the same-level fighter crits him with his masterwork greatsword while using vital strike in an antimagic field.
Really, in a world with such powerful magic and people using it so willy nilly, you'd think there'd be factories cranking out items of this stuff.
So, you are telling me that magic isn't powerful, because of a spell.
Oh, the irony...
Feel free to have your Fighter have a dead magic demiplane. It just won't effect the outcome of the fight is all.
No what makes the disparity clear is that merely owning a dead magic plane is not going to help the martial in the slightest.
Meh, this whole tangent started out as a half-hearted attempt at humor. I didn't mean to poke holes in anybody's self-assurance of system mastery.
That said, since fighters don't typically create their own magic items, but instead purchase these services from casters, fighters are in pretty bad trouble indeed, if we're really looking for ways fighters can beat casters without *any* assistance from casters.
It doesn't matter how fighters get their power. It's how they use it that matters.
No what makes the disparity clear is that merely owning a dead magic plane is not going to help the martial in the slightest.Meh, if I were a fighter with something to guard, hide or otherwise protect, I think I'd take my chances inside the demiplane. It may not be perfectly safe, but consider the alternative.
The issue here is that the Wizard can Call minions to attack you in your demiplane (unless you lock yourself in by not giving it the Portal feature, which seems like a great way to dispose of things...), or send in Animated Undead/Objects, all of which aren't as inhibited by the dead magic trait as the fighter is.
I don't, I beat them in opposed CHA check and make them work for free... feel free to use your WBL to attempt Planar Binding, but Planar Binding is a Wizard class feature and is absolutely worth considering and not the same as bringing another person any more then bringing a mount of animal companion would be.
Also you in no way addressed the animated dead/objects, which far from being tantamount to sending in martials is more like "using your spells to create you minions".