Try cr 6.
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Why not? Cave Troll is what CR 12? Could have four or five levels of Fighter on top of that? CR 17 Cave Troll?
Seems like you are just guessing and assigning arbitrary levels to characters without any real specific reasons?
Mountain trolls are CR 15. Cave troll is CR6. And it had a young template. I'm not assigning arbitrary levels without specific reasons. I'm assigning it to them, based on the current Pathfinder rules. The party fight barrow-wights, wights are CR3. Those wights the party fought, do exactly the same than those in DnD (because they are inspired by them, by the way). Giant spiders are CR1, and Ogre spiders (like Shelob) are CR6. Dire wolves, like worgs, are CR3. They fight this kind of enemies, who pose this kind of CR4 threat. They don't fight enemies who teleport, surround themselves in wall of fire, fly, or summon demons. When they saw a real CR20 enemy (the Balrog), they ran, and let the NPC high level outsider to fight it. Smaug is CR 16. Do you think Boromir had *any* chance to kill Smaug? Do you think he'll have *any* chance to defeat a Treant, which is CR 8? I'm not even talking about Treebeard. I'm talking about one of the basic, run'o'mill treants. Do you think Boromir could defeat one?
More important: Boromir CAN'T do in the novels the things that a 15th level fighter can do in DnD. He can't drink arsenic. He can't survive falling from the White Tower. He can't wrestle a rhinoceros. He does what a 4th level fighter do in Pathfinder: walk in the wilderness, fight orcs and dire wolves, need help to fight a troll, and die when some one crits him with a bow.
Pretty sure it works just fine, idk why it wouldn't. . .Who on earth ever sad that Boromir was level 4 and that the Orcs that killed him were level 1? Sure some of them were, but I'm pretty sure Boromir was level 15 and he died fighting a dozen level 12 Orcs lead by a level 17 orc chief (the one who does the killing blow in the movie). . .Try to simulate that fight out with those levels as oppose to the lower levels.I'm fairly certain that Boromir can't fight an ancient dragon(CR 16) on his own when he needed help to fight a cave troll.
Imo, Legolas was probably the highest CR there besides Gandalf. And even hes probably about 8th level.
Why not? Cave Troll is what CR 12? Could have four or five levels of Fighter on top of that? CR 17 Cave Troll?
Seems like you are just guessing and assigning arbitrary levels to characters without any real specific reasons?
No, we're using established CRs from the books, and going based off that. You're the one who's seeming to be making up arbitrary levels.
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Why not? Cave Troll is what CR 12? Could have four or five levels of Fighter on top of that? CR 17 Cave Troll?
Seems like you are just guessing and assigning arbitrary levels to characters without any real specific reasons?
Mountain trolls are CR 15. Cave troll is CR6. And it had a young template. I'm not assigning arbitrary levels without specific reasons. I'm assigning it to them, based on the current Pathfinder rules. The party fight barrow-wights, wights are CR3. Those wights the party fought, do exactly the same than those in DnD (because they are inspired by them, by the way). Giant spiders are CR1, and Ogre spiders (like Shelob) are CR6. Dire wolves, like worgs, are CR3. They fight this kind of enemies, who pose this kind of CR4 threat. They don't fight enemies who teleport, surround themselves in wall of fire, fly, or summon demons. When they saw a real CR20 enemy (the Balrog), they ran, and let the NPC high level outsider to fight it. Smaug is CR 16. Do you think Boromir had *any* chance to kill Smaug? Do you think he'll have *any* chance to defeat a Treant, which is CR 8? I'm not even talking about Treebeard. I'm talking about one of the basic, run'o'mill treants. Do you think Boromir could defeat one?
More important: Boromir CAN'T do in the novels the things that a 15th level fighter can do in DnD. He can't drink arsenic. He can't survive falling from the White Tower. He can't wrestle a rhinoceros. He does what a 4th level fighter do in Pathfinder: walk in the wilderness, fight orcs and dire wolves, need help to fight a troll, and die when some one crits him with a bow.
And I deny the validity of stating that the analogues in Pathfinder with the same names are necessarily the proper CRs for the creatures in a completely separate thing.
I could point out that they do fight Ring Wraiths, and you will suggest the CR 5 of Wraiths because it has the same name. . . sorry, that's not the same thing.
As to your Spiders theory. . . Shelob was the child of a god-like spirit (Ungoliant) who had lived for thousands of years before the events of the LOTR (all the way back to the Silmarillian days) and you expect me to believe that in all that time she was a from the book "ogre spider" with no advancement?
I suppose you expect me to believe that all orcs are level 1 warriors only. . . they don't have ANY higher level orcs at all because the bad guys are always level 1?
1st Edition D&D was inspired by Tolkien, some concepts were taken. From then on their is no real correspondence much less the kind of direct conversion you're suggesting.
I'm sorry, all nine members of the Fellowship were epic. They collectively accomplished slaying an evil uber deity, the second most powerful evil entity ever is existence in their world. I deny any paradigm in which these characters are 4th level.
E6 and E8 aren't answers, they're just insults to throw at people who want some sense of limits in their gaming.
The version of Cai that's a perfectly mundane Briton fighting against the barbarians overrunning post-Roman Britain is a thousand times more interesting than the one that can hold his breath for more than a week and is on fire because he's an actual character rather than some random amalgam of forgotten godlings repackaged as an anachronistic Christian knight.
Well, I'm not going to say if it's more interesting or less, because that's a matter of taste.
What I'm going to say, however, is that mundane Briton fighing barbarians is level 4th at best. He can't be beyond level 6, because he's not able to do any of the things a high level fighter can do in Pathfinder. That guy *dies* if he falls from a tower. That guy can't face a Dragon, or a 12th headed Hydra, he can't defeat demons, or drink poison without worries. He can't wrestle a rhinoceros and win. So he is not a high level fighter by Pathfinder game system. He's level 4th, and that's it.
Pretty sure it works just fine, idk why it wouldn't. . .Who on earth ever sad that Boromir was level 4 and that the Orcs that killed him were level 1? Sure some of them were, but I'm pretty sure Boromir was level 15 and he died fighting a dozen level 12 Orcs lead by a level 17 orc chief (the one who does the killing blow in the movie). . .Try to simulate that fight out with those levels as oppose to the lower levels.I'm fairly certain that Boromir can't fight an ancient dragon(CR 16) on his own when he needed help to fight a cave troll.
Imo, Legolas was probably the highest CR there besides Gandalf. And even hes probably about 8th level.
Why not? Cave Troll is what CR 12? Could have four or five levels of Fighter on top of that? CR 17 Cave Troll?
Seems like you are just guessing and assigning arbitrary levels to characters without any real specific reasons?
Do you really believe Boromir could survive a fall from ten thousand feet?
Do you really believe Boromir could survive a fall from ten thousand feet?Pretty sure it works just fine, idk why it wouldn't. . .Who on earth ever sad that Boromir was level 4 and that the Orcs that killed him were level 1? Sure some of them were, but I'm pretty sure Boromir was level 15 and he died fighting a dozen level 12 Orcs lead by a level 17 orc chief (the one who does the killing blow in the movie). . .Try to simulate that fight out with those levels as oppose to the lower levels.I'm fairly certain that Boromir can't fight an ancient dragon(CR 16) on his own when he needed help to fight a cave troll.
Imo, Legolas was probably the highest CR there besides Gandalf. And even hes probably about 8th level.
Why not? Cave Troll is what CR 12? Could have four or five levels of Fighter on top of that? CR 17 Cave Troll?
Seems like you are just guessing and assigning arbitrary levels to characters without any real specific reasons?
Since we never saw Boromir fall ten thousand feet in LOTR, any guess I could make as to whether he could survive such a fall is completely arbitrary.
I know that I personally could not fall ten thousand feet, so it is reasonable to believe that a man regardless of the setting could not survive the same.
Of course, we do see Boromir pierced by dozens of arrows, many of them probably poisoned and continue to fight well beyond the limits of what I personally or any ordinary human could do, so it is also reasonable to assume he could survive an extreme fall.
based on the CRs of the foes within lord of the rings, the party was mostly near 4th-5th level and the halflings quickly caught up. going from NPC levels to PC levels.
Gimli was 6th level, Legolas and Aragorn about 7th or 8th level, and Gandalf was a high powered outsider with like 7 levels of wizard.
there was lots of magical equipment to go round, but the only reason gandalf could beat a CR 20 Balor was because he himself was a CR 17 Planetar with 7 Wizard levels and combined both his wizard intellect and a full nova to beat it.
gandalf never used a single spell higher than maybe 4th level unless it was something straightforward, and his level 17 Cleric powers derived from being a planetar were used offscreen when nobody was around or watching, and he never flaunted them, plus most of those were pretty simple and straightfoward
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Oh, sure, there are some non-CR 1 Orcs. There will always be Orcish Generals, and such. But most will be CR 1. None of the Fellowship (barring Gandalf, where it's arguable, due to his nature as an NPC/DMPC, with the power of plot) were epic level. They were still mortal, they still die to falling off a tall height, or being poisoned, or anything that kills a level 6 or less creature, but a 15th level creature just shrugs off.
The big thing that LoTR represents, isn't a 15th level adventure, but how you can run an epic fantasy adventure with characters 6th level or lower. Not every adventure has to be 1-20. In fact, I'd argue most adventures aren't 1-20, or even 1-15. But the ones that are should be equally epic for all characters. A Fighter shouldn't be following a 1-6 paradigm, when a Wizard is following a 1-20 paradigm.
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And I deny the validity of stating that the analogues in Pathfinder with the same names are necessarily the proper CRs for the creatures in a completely separate thing.
I could point out that they do fight Ring Wraiths, and you will suggest the CR 5 of Wraiths because it has the same name. . . sorry, that's not the same thing.
[...]I'm sorry, all nine members of the Fellowship were epic. They collectively accomplished slaying an evil uber deity, the second most powerful evil entity ever is existence in their world. I deny any paradigm in which these characters are 4th level.
Wraiths were built to mimic Nazguls. Besides that:
An epic fighter can kill an adult dragon. Boromir can't kill an adult dragon. An epic fighter can wrestle a dinosaur. Boromir can't wrestle a dinosaur. Those creatures are analogues to the pathfinder ones, because they DO have the same abilities. A worg is a dire wolf. It doesn't have any magical ability, it does nothing different than a regular dire wolf. Even the normal, basic rohirrim fightes killed them. They are cr3 wolves. Same goes with the wights, the trolls, and the rest.
You are claiming they are a high level party. They don't face a single encounter that is built like a Pathfinder high level encounter. They don't face flying monsters, or teleporting monsters, or monsters that cast fireballs on them. They do face the standard low level pathfinder encounter: low level melee guys like wolves, orcs, and some trolls. That's it.
And they didn't slay Sauron. They didn't face him. It was a McGuffin, the novel's plot. They infiltrated a hostile wilderness place and throw a ring into lava, period. They did not defeat Sauron, and they wouldn't be able to do so, ever.
About Shelob: yes, I expect you to believe it was an ogre spider, because that's what it was. A spider that got hit once, and ran. Didn't have magical powers, didn't have a strength beyond what the ogre spider has. Even his poison was not that powerful, it was paralyzing.
You want them to be epic, and that's why you need to apply all kind of templates and class levels to even the lowly orcs. But it does not work that way. You keep ignoring the big elephant in the room. If Aragorn is a 15th level fighter, then he is able to survive a fall from the White Tower. Do you think that, under the paradigm of the novel, Aragorn could survive falling from the Tower of Ecthelion? Because that's what high level fighters do in Pathfinder.
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I deny any paradigm in which these characters are 4th level.
You can deny it all you want, you still aren't right. The numbers all support the theory that the Fellowship was made up of 4-6 level characters, who all seemed incredibly amazing because they existed in a world where most people didn't get past level 2.
The LotR books are grounded in reality. The heroes of middle earth are fairly realistic people doing impressive, amazing, but still believable things.
In Pathfinder terms that means they are all below 9th level.
Everyone past about 7th level is way out of the realm of reality.
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Since we never saw Boromir fall ten thousand feet in LOTR, any guess I could make as to whether he could survive such a fall is completely arbitrary.Don't try to dodge the question. In your opinion, given the paradigm of the novel, do you think he'd be able to do it?
I know that I personally could not fall ten thousand feet, so it is reasonable to believe that a man regardless of the setting could not survive the same.
Beowulf would survive 10.000 feet fall with no problem. So it's not a matter of it is possible for you, it's a matter of being possible for him
Of course, we do see Boromir pierced by dozens of arrows, many of them probably poisoned and continue to fight well beyond the limits of what I personally or any ordinary human could do, so it is also reasonable to assume he could survive an extreme fall.
Richard Lionheart fought with a lot of arrows in his body, and couldn't fall from a high tower. And Boromir couldn't survive FOUR arrows, much less dozens. Which happen to work perfectly with his 4th level.
So again: do you believe Boromir, as written, could survive falling from Ecthelion? Do you believe boromir, as written, could wrestle and pin a Rhinoceros with one hand tied to his back? Because that's what a 15th level fighter does in Pathfinder. And that's what a high level fighter does in literature too: Beowulf can do that. Or Cuchulain. Or Gilgamesh, or Hercules.
Since we never saw Boromir fall ten thousand feet in LOTR, any guess I could make as to whether he could survive such a fall is completely arbitrary.I know that I personally could not fall ten thousand feet, so it is reasonable to believe that a man regardless of the setting could not survive the same.
Of course, we do see Boromir pierced by dozens of arrows, many of them probably poisoned and continue to fight well beyond the limits of what I personally or any ordinary human could do, so it is also reasonable to assume he could survive an extreme fall.
Since it is reasonable to assume that, and that a Pathfinder level 15 character could survive that kind of fall, it is also reasonable to come to the conclusion that none of the LOTR characters are 15th level.
Boromir is shot by 3 arrows. Then coup de graced. 2 puts him into a state where he becomes far less effective, likely die harding at this moment. The third drops him to a point where he can't take actions anymore without dieing. Then Lurtz Coup de graces him.
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Why not? Cave Troll is what CR 12? Could have four or five levels of Fighter on top of that? CR 17 Cave Troll?
Seems like you are just guessing and assigning arbitrary levels to characters without any real specific reasons?
Mountain trolls are CR 15. Cave troll is CR6. And it had a young template. I'm not assigning arbitrary levels without specific reasons. I'm assigning it to them, based on the current Pathfinder rules. The party fight barrow-wights, wights are CR3. Those wights the party fought, do exactly the same than those in DnD (because they are inspired by them, by the way). Giant spiders are CR1, and Ogre spiders (like Shelob) are CR6. Dire wolves, like worgs, are CR3. They fight this kind of enemies, who pose this kind of CR4 threat. They don't fight enemies who teleport, surround themselves in wall of fire, fly, or summon demons. When they saw a real CR20 enemy (the Balrog), they ran, and let the NPC high level outsider to fight it. Smaug is CR 16. Do you think Boromir had *any* chance to kill Smaug? Do you think he'll have *any* chance to defeat a Treant, which is CR 8? I'm not even talking about Treebeard. I'm talking about one of the basic, run'o'mill treants. Do you think Boromir could defeat one?
More important: Boromir CAN'T do in the novels the things that a 15th level fighter can do in DnD. He can't drink arsenic. He can't survive falling from the White Tower. He can't wrestle a rhinoceros. He does what a 4th level fighter do in Pathfinder: walk in the wilderness, fight orcs and dire wolves, need help to fight a troll, and die when some one crits him with a bow.
And I deny the validity of stating that the analogues in Pathfinder with the same names are necessarily the proper CRs for the creatures in a completely separate thing.
I could point out that they do fight Ring Wraiths, and you will suggest the CR 5 of Wraiths because it has the same name. . . sorry, that's not the same thing.
As to...
Look no offense... but arbitrarily giving stuff 12 levels makes no sense. Yes, the orcs that Saruman created, probably definitely had 12 levels of experience when they created... or... maybe... they are level 1 Orc warriors, which explains how their 4th level opponent can mow them down, but eventually succumbed to damage. I mean rather then assume the Ents were so good at fighting because they were CR 8 Treants against a a bunch of CR 1 Orcs, what did they all also have 12 levels as well? And I guess each hobbit gained 12 levels or more levels... I mean really? Basically your premise here holds 0 water and has little rules support. I'm not sure why its so terrible to think that Aragorn is 6th level, when again... rather then run towards the only CR 20 (the balor, but I guess those also have 12 indeterminate class levels in your mind), he runs away. Not how most high level melee players I know react. Very much so though how a low-level would act.
Why aren't the Wraiths *just* wraiths? Cause they used to be kings? What abilities do they actually demonstrate that aren't just regular joe wraith abilities? And yes, I do expect you to believe Shelob is just a joe spider, since it does nothing to indicate otherwise and gets killed by a Hafling... sorry "hobbit" that had no real combat experience to speak of and certainly not the kind of encounters you need to get to whatever level you think Shelob is. Just because something calls itself a god doesn't mean much...
And look... getting pierced by a lot of arrows... they don't deal much damage... so...that's exactly what a 4th level fighter with a decent CON would look like... i bet he made most of his poison saves to, what with the decent +Fort.
You know Atarlost, unless those APs for some reason don't have levels 1 to 6 or 8... you could just play the parts that are from level 1 to say... 6 or 8 and rewrite the plot slightly so that makes sense. That seems like support to me, along with the fact that they release scenarios that are those levels that you could just use instead.
I deny any paradigm in which these characters are 4th level.You can deny it all you want, you still aren't right. The numbers all support the theory that the Fellowship was made up of 4-6 level characters, who all seemed incredibly amazing because they existed in a world where most people didn't get past level 2.
The LotR books are grounded in reality. The heroes of middle earth are fairly realistic people doing impressive, amazing, but still believable things.
In Pathfinder terms that means they are all below 9th level.
Everyone past about 7th level is way out of the realm of reality.
Which is simply more evidence for my statement that the two are separate despite similar trappings and that simply slapping the PF things with the same names/look onto the creatures in the books and then making arguments about what this means isn't a valid argument.
And if I say that, yes, I think falling from the top of the tower would not do more damage than the number of arrows which Boromir did take so yes I do believe that, based on evidence in the book he could survive such a fall?
And if I say that, yes, I think falling from the top of the tower would not do more damage than the number of arrows which Boromir did take so yes I do believe that, based on evidence in the book he could survive such a fall?
3 arrows does 20d6 damage?
Man I guess that orc chieftain had like 30 levels in warrior or something to get the deadly aim damage that high.
Or maybe... and this is a crazy fever dream I had... the developers based their monster on the ones found in Lord of the Rings and gave them those CRs, since thats about how threatening they are. Also, let me assure your odds of surviving 3 arrows are much higher then free fall from the Empire State Building, significantly so.
I deny any paradigm in which these characters are 4th level.You can deny it all you want, you still aren't right. The numbers all support the theory that the Fellowship was made up of 4-6 level characters, who all seemed incredibly amazing because they existed in a world where most people didn't get past level 2.
The LotR books are grounded in reality. The heroes of middle earth are fairly realistic people doing impressive, amazing, but still believable things.
In Pathfinder terms that means they are all below 9th level.
Everyone past about 7th level is way out of the realm of reality.
Which is simply more evidence for my statement that the two are separate despite similar trappings and that simply slapping the PF things with the same names/look onto the creatures in the books and then making arguments about what this means isn't a valid argument.
And if I say that, yes, I think falling from the top of the tower would not do more damage than the number of arrows which Boromir did take so yes I do believe that, based on evidence in the book he could survive such a fall?
If you believe that, then we have read different books. The Boromir I read, couldn't survive that.
And once again: THREE ARROWS isn't that much. A lot of people has survived three *shots*, and he was already KO after the second one.
I would love to read this Lord of the Rings book where Aragorn fights CR 15-20 (hell I would settle on CR 10) enemies and somehow win without resorting dues ex machina. I mean there's no way Tolkien would... oh right... Eagles.
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Which is simply more evidence for my statement that the two are separate despite similar trappings and that simply slapping the PF things with the same names/look onto the creatures in the books and then making arguments about what this means isn't a valid argument.
It's not only slapping the creatures that work (which, by the way, work perfectly).
It's about the paradigm. A 15th level encounter in PAthfinder is *not* like the encounters the fellowship had. You don't see 15th level encounters in pathfinder against a bunch of melee orcs riding wolves, or against a giant spider who can't do anything but bite.
Do you know what's a CR14 spider in Pathfinder? A Leng spider. That's how a 14th level fight is in Pathfinder, with monsters with a lot of special abilities like major image, invisibility or air walk. Samwise could defeat Shelob, because she was a simple Ogre Spider. But Sam wouldn't have a chance vs a real CR 14 encounter like a Leng Spider. Not a chance.
Here's a fantastic article about what the numbers in 3.5/Pathfinder mean, and it culminates with a very well reasoned breakdown of why Aragorn isn't any higher than about 5th level.
Here's a fantastic article about what the numbers in 3.5/Pathfinder mean, and it culminates with a very well reasoned breakdown of why Aragorn isn't any higher than about 5th level.
Nathanael, I highly recommend reading this article as well since it actually high lights exactly what you did in this thread.
Lotr Fellowship
the Hobbits go from 1st level Experts to 4th level PC classed characters with an Expert level tacked on, mixing aspects of fighter and rogue to varying levels
Legolas is a 7th level elven ranger with a few alternate racials and really high stats
Gimli is a 7th level dwarven ranger with a few alternate racials and really high stats
Aragorn is a 7th level half elf ranger with really high stats
Boromir is a Human with 2 levels of fighter and 3 of ranger
Gandalf is a CR 17 Planetar with 7 Wizard levels whom rarely uses both his planetar powers or his wizard spells. he mostly does Deus Ex Machina and the only times he uses his powers, is when no allies are watching, and off screen. gandalf is one of multiple but few planetars with wizard levels and one of few planetars in the world. he soloed a balor offscreen by both using the terrain to his advantage with his wizard intellect, and by going nova or alpha strike.
I dunno, in the movies Gandalf uses like four or five spells. Light, Shield, Tongues, and Invisibility Purge (if that's what the spell in Desolation of Smaug was supposed to be). Maybe thinking he's 7th level is a tad high. Might JUST be there if you think the Balrog fight used Emergency Force Shield instead of Shield.
But regardless, I think that some people just have a sour martial vs caster philosophy around here. Yeah, Fighters need more abilities. Better saves and maybe some way of gaining SR would help. Fantastical feats of strength would also serve well. Maybe we should focus on this more than how casters are horrible because some people learn Simulacrum.
Me, I know there are some crazy spells when I play a higher level caster. But isn't part of the game to play together? Shouldn't the philosophy be to play strengths instead of deliberately showing up everyone else with broken mechanics? If someone's playing a glory hog, maybe they're the problem more than the class is.
Well, there are some prestige classes that allow for that sort of thing. I believe Spherewalker or Horizon Walker allow you to use Plane Shift once per day or something to that effect. It seems as though what fighter does, through and through, is to train martially. Ergo to do something that isn't fight-y requires investment elsewhere. I'm not against giving alternate ways to deal with magic, such, as what Barbarians have access to, or even alternate methods of travel/movement to counter magicians on an even fight.
However, spells aren't exactly a "make the GM do this" class feature. You shouldn't need mechanics telling you how to role play changing the plot. Even if your party mage spends all his downtime crafting magic items, that doesn't mean a martial character cannot make a story happen in the meantime. It just isn't as immediately realized or obvious to new players. Such is the learning curve.