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There's info in the Academy of Secrets book about incorporating this adventure into the Adventure Path right after Skeletons of Scarwall and going to the assault on Castle Korvosa in Crown of Fangs after it. It mentions a few things to incorporate it, like the PCs needing to be in disguise as Ileosa's simulacrum will be in attendance, and that finishing it would be enough fame to instantly give them the popularity to mount an assault on the Castle. I'm sort of wondering, though, the ripple effects this has on the themes and ideas of the story.
Academy of Secrets is all about Lorthact/Volshynek Ornelos and his manipulations of Toff Ornelos. Lorthact is also one of the signatories of Ileosa's pact, I think, and the after-campaign suggestions mention one angle to take it in is to fight Lorthact to end his manipulations of Korvosa. I think this is an interesting way to do it, especially since it continues the general idea that this story is about Korvosa. On the other hand, I worry it might cheapen the stuff dealing with Kazavon's stuff, which is arguably more important as it's the Crown of Fangs that gave Ileosa the guts to bargain with Hell in the first place. I also worry that it might make the campaign too similar to Council of Thieves (though arguably that's kind of a moot point, since they're already so similar).
Also, adding the Academy of Secrets adventure might mean cutting the stuff taking place before the assault on Castle Korvosa, meaning there's little chance to do things like confront Yhazunum or fight in the city against the Gray Maidens to start a rebellion, and I feel like that may be important to the flow of Crown of Fangs itself. On the other hand, including those things AND Academy of Secrets would definitely drag things out, and it would mean the PCs are at a higher level when dealing with Ileosa, which might make things too easy for them, and it would leave less room for adventures before confronting Lorthact if that's the direction I end up going in.
Has anyone else used Academy of Secrets in their run of Curse of the Crimson Throne? If so, how did you incorporate it into the story, and what fallout did it have on the campaign's themes and arcs?
I plan to implement Academy of Secrets, but since we don't calculate XP, it will just take PCs longer to reach level 16.
Yhazunum is pretty irrelevant to the plot and one of the encounters that many people seem to be dropping.
I'll actually be putting it before Scarwall, rather than after, as part of my reworked Chapter Four. I'm still in the process of tinkering with it, but thus far we're putting something in the academy that should point the PCs toward Scarwall (since I removed HoA they won't have the Shoanti to do that bit of plot direction) and removing or rewriting much of the festival section.
Given the PCs will have the aid of Sial and Asyra still, and possibly Laori, I'm not worried about running them through it a level or two early.
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I ran it recently, just before running the last part of the AP.
It hasn't had much impact on the campaign, but the PCs really objected to being done out of part of the prize money. Not quite on the level of "The Queen can wait; we're going to get what we're owed!" but it did have the potential to send the whole thing off on a massive tangent I was completely unprepared for. In hindsight, I wish I'd told them at the start that the prize was the reduced amount.
Plan for my co-run game will probably involve the PCs getting caught by Ileosa's guard after leaving the Academy but before they can claim their prize and sentencing them to Scarwall. Yay briar-patching. Cue the PCs knocking on the headmaster's door demanding money the instant they clear Scarwall.
(note that Scint's and my game is the same game/group in this context <_<)
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I plan on running Academy as a part of my game, but it will, in some ways, a minor effect, and in others, a major effect.
I plan to incorporate Academy into Kaushal Avan Spellfire's amazing Battle for Korvosa minigame. The end result will be the aid of Acadamae wizards for use in the mini-game.
As for the reduced monetary reward, I plan on blaming it on Ileosa.
Hi Zousha
As I said in Jason's post about the Church of Asmodeus:
Check out my post in When to run Academy of Secrets in CotCT. There you you can see what I'm planning to do with the temple of Asmodeus and Academy of Secrets.
So taking a step back, Queen Ileosa pacts with Hell in order to secure her attempts at immortality. In exchange for handing over the keys to the city of Korvosa to Lorthact and Sermignatto after her ritual.(Crown of Fangs, p46).
Voiding that contract is going to be tough and you're going to need it if you're going to wrest Korvosa from Ileosa's clutches. Killing the Queen or killing Lorthact is out of the question at this point. And killing Sermignatto or the contract devil is not enough. Destroying the queen's copy is not enough. The PCs either need to get into the Castle and destroy the queen's copy AND go to hell itself into the Salt Towers of Dis and find the paper shredder or they'll need Asmodeus to void this contract.
Fortunately for the PCs, Lorthact's identity and location has HUGE value. Enough to secure AT LEAST the attention of the Queen of Erinyes. In turn she can petition for Asmodeus' veto.
Here's the thing with Lorthact: no one currently in Hell likes this dude. He is a legitimate threat to the infernal status quo. Sermignatto himself is just waiting for the right time to betray Lorthact, but lower devils who betray need to choose carefully because their reputation is basically all they have.
Now Lorthact knows this and knows that he doesn't have much leverage so he sort of is forced to rely on Sermignatto to wheel and deal on his behalf until his demiplane is full of souls.
With the city firmly in the Queen's grasp, Lorthact's hubris blinds him to the risk Toff's undermining really can cost the exiled Archdevil.
When they deal with the Contract devil, reveal the contract between Sermignatto and the Queen! With the help of Toff, the PCs uncover Lorthact's play in this scheme. Armed with this knowledge, the PCs can secure and leverage Lorthact's location to the Church of Asmodeus for a major blow against Queen Ileosa.
Since I am not a big fan of the Kazavon angle in CotCT, this is big. Like imagine 4 dudes coming to the US state department with the location of Osama Bin Laden huge. As a reward, the PCs can request Asmodeus himself to veto/annul Queen Ileosa's contract.
That's just enough for the resistance to turn the tide against the Queen and her loyalists and the PCs save the city.
I'm sure there's other ideas you can think of using Lorthact's identity as leverage (Example: is he low enough on the divine totem pole for the Red Mantis God?)
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I did the Academy of Secrets during 7DttG, actually, and adapted it to my own campaign and changed the level so that it'd work with the characters. It was all a part of showing Illeosa's tightening grip on the city. I made sure to allude to it in Knowledge (Local) checks throughout, with people wondering whether it would be held this year or not, despite the plague.
Sure enough, Illeosa and the Academae did indeed hold it, but for reasons that the players only somewhat suspected. For Archmage Toff, it was a matter of procedure and pride, as well as a way to stay in the new queen's good graces (not to mention the subliminal encouragement from, y'know, a Duke of Hell).
For Illeosa, the fact that the competition has a high injury and death rate bodes well for her plans. She notices the PCs roaming around, generally mucking up her efforts to kill off Korvosa's poor, and the people absolutely love them. She can't just execute them, or imprison them, or there'll be more riots at a time when her Gray Maidens aren't yet fully ready (at this point she only has, what, maybe 60 of them?). This is the perfect opportunity to "encourage" that Toff allow the city's champions to compete, and even allow them to compete as a team, in the hopes that they'll simply die to whatever traps the mages have prepared. The people will be sad, but what can you do? This happens every year...
Of course, I am spending a lot of time making sure that Illeosa has her grip tightening around the throat of the city. It's all very gradual, and I've even had her political maneuverings reach the point that the people dislike her but trust her because she makes it seem like the players are her agents! I also have a "Hellknight" Inquisitor, and this was a fun way to get him to kill a devil and pass his test.
I had to adjust a lot of things, but the general outline is pretty much exactly the same. It's easy enough to bring down CRs on creatures, and I made the fights in hell along with the traps in the competition less deadly overall, but the players enjoyed it a lot and it was a very subtly way for them to get the hint a bit later, after more events had transpired, that the queen knows who the PCs are and wants them to stop meddling. Making a contract devil basically act like an Erinyes stat-wise with some different abilities worked out for me pretty well.
Running it later might be difficult, though, with the module wanting players to take part in the competition right as they're coming back to mop up Illeosa's regime. Moving the level down made it flow nicely. I guess it's up to you how badly you want the adventure to take place at the proper level, and how willing you are to homebrew a bit.
Thanks for posting Puna'chong.
I really like your ideas, especially the fix of making the contract devil an Erinyes stat-wise, and agree with your reasoning that the module doesn't really fit the tone of the end of CotCT.
If I run AoS, I'll likely use your advice and insert it between 7DttG and EfOK.
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I found it was a good way for the players to get the hint that they're on Illeosa's fecal roster, and being just before their assault on the Hospice of the Blessed Maiden it got them some magic items and goodwill I figured they'd need for how brutal the underground there can be.
I reduced the prize money to 30,000 gp., and then let each player get one item worth up to 7,000 gp. to make up for Ornelos using the prize money to fund various projects. I also let the players get some favors from the Academae. It seems like a lot, but I tend not to give out too many magic items in my campaigns so it was welcome and helped get them on par with the CR of my rebuilt NPCs in the Temple.
I also made the trap rooms a bit more interesting, as they seemed kind of one-dimensional as written. For instance, I made the Illusion school's trap an illusionary hallway that the player would have to make multiple Will saves to get through, or get lost in hallucinations. Another thing I did was have the college set up "scrying sheets," giant mirrors basically, all around the wall's perimeter for spectators. Every sheet was focused on a participant, and the Varisian rogue had a blast pandering to his audience--further ticking off Illeosa!
Learning later on from Mr. Scream and Neolandus that Illeosa may have made a pact with a devil also made the PCs' revelations that, yes, they were in Hell, that much more interesting for them. The fact that the Acadamae's headmaster didn't even know that they were being sent to Hell really gave the players an idea of how powerful Illeosa might be, if she's capable of creating a portal to Hell and making deals with devils. I figured this could either be a red herring and unrelated to the Crown of Fangs, or it could easily be something Illeosa began as her power increased.
So I guess a lot came from running AoS at that point in the campaign. Along with a group that's really enjoying the intrigue side of the AP, it's had some big results for their mindset and how threatened they are by Illeosa's scheming; they feel like she's always a step ahead of them. Especially with the competition timed around when Illeosa's Gray Maidens are becoming fully functional and martial law is only days away, how deadly the competition is known to be makes it abundantly clear that Illeosa is cunning and has vast resources available to kill off the players without any sort of political repercussions. Their deaths at that point in the campaign would have essentially--in their eyes--been the end of Korvosa. Now they're just barely getting into the Vivified Labyrinth and they're completely sold on the idea of getting out of Korvosa ASAFP. Illeosa's too powerful for them to mess with right now.
I did the Academy of Secrets during 7DttG, actually, and adapted it to my own campaign and changed the level so that it'd work with the characters.
I would worry slightly about the characters' level to win the Breaching Festival. Adapting the adventure to suit level 7, for example, would make it very hard to explain why no one has won it in 150 years. The adventure as written is meant for level 13, which suits this idea better.
I did the Academy of Secrets during 7DttG, actually, and adapted it to my own campaign and changed the level so that it'd work with the characters.I would worry slightly about the characters' level to win the Breaching Festival. Adapting the adventure to suit level 7, for example, would make it very hard to explain why no one has won it in 150 years. The adventure as written is meant for level 13, which suits this idea better.
Who cares about level? Most NPCs don't get past level 5 or 6 anyways, and it's not like they would necessarily cherry-pick for CR in order to recruit contestants, just take a contestant that seems capable compared to the other choices (which, if they're all dying at level 5-7, also precludes them getting better to succeed later) and let them at it. An easy--incredibly easy--way to explain their success is that the PCs are operating as a unit. Sure, one might get caught in a trap set by the college, but soon enough his friends who did succeed at their challenges will come along to help out. No other contestant in the Festival's history has had this boon. Then, assuming a single contestant by him/herself doesn't just get turned into a vegetable by the hall he chose, now he has to go into Hell and not only resist a Phistophilus' contract ability, promising eternal power and wealth to the thief or mage (who frikkin' LOVE power and wealth) but also against other demons roaming around? By him/herself? That's rough.
The OP asked how we handled the AoS, and I think part of the difficulty for so many on adapting this module to the CotCT AP is that they see "Designed for four 13th-level characters" as a level requirement set in stone. I changed the level requirement, and it made sense in my game world as it's rare for an NPC to get into a level range required for fighting devils. The PCs barely survived their fights, and there are 5 of them, so for me and the PCs themselves it stands to reason why nobody's won this in such a long time. 1v1 against a devil of roughly equal CR, unless you're specifically trained to take out devils (which, honestly, most people participating in the Festival would not be) is difficult. All it takes is a failed Will save and your body is lunch, with a nice cool draught of eternally suffering soul to wash it down.
Ultimately it's up to you. If it doesn't make any sense and changing the stats of creatures in the Bestiary isn't something you want to do for consistency's sake, or whatever the reason, then yeah. This is just what I did for my own campaign and it worked out really well despite the fact that I had to make a lot of changes to the module. We had fun, and it's made my little campaign world that much more frightening for the players, so I'm happy with it.
Maybe in *your* world the average person never makes it past 5th-7th level, but Golarion seems to be very different.
Your average Barkeep is 5th level.
That crazy Hermit in the hills? He's 7th level.
Your local Shopkeep is 6th level.
That jerkwad Lawyer who makes too much money? He's 9th level.
The 'average' for Golarion is not as low as you think. There are tons of people running the range of 1st - 10th level, though the numbers of people above that start dropping significantly.
I did the Academy of Secrets during 7DttG, actually, and adapted it to my own campaign and changed the level so that it'd work with the characters.I would worry slightly about the characters' level to win the Breaching Festival. Adapting the adventure to suit level 7, for example, would make it very hard to explain why no one has won it in 150 years. The adventure as written is meant for level 13, which suits this idea better.
I guess it really depends on what type of players you have. If you have a group that's detail-oriented, I could see the history of the Breaching Festival coming into play more.
However, in my case, I think I've often spent way too much time thinking and worrying about issues which my players hardly seem to notice in the end.
So lately, I've been trying to focus on making sessions fun and memorable, because that's what my players seem to really pay attention to.
Maybe in *your* world the average person never makes it past 5th-7th level, but Golarion seems to be very different.
Your average Barkeep is 5th level.
That crazy Hermit in the hills? He's 7th level.
Your local Shopkeep is 6th level.
That jerkwad Lawyer who makes too much money? He's 9th level.The 'average' for Golarion is not as low as you think. There are tons of people running the range of 1st - 10th level, though the numbers of people above that start dropping significantly.
Sure, as you're listing Bestiary entries designed to challenge players at certain levels, naturally you'll find things of specific levels. Perhaps I underestimated, and that's fine and I'll admit that, but let's take ANY of those examples; none of them could fight a devil by themselves, and they represent what I'll change in my mind to be the average. Again, the fact that the players are level 7 doesn't really phase me as much as it seems to be worrying others. We can cherry-pick CRs from APs and modules and whatever all day, that are all designed to challenge players of a certain level, and we'll never get anywhere because the game explicitly designed monsters and NPCs with the intent to challenge the players.
If I have my players fight a contract devil at level 7 with nerfed stats so they aren't ripped in half, why does that matter? It's just numbers wrapped in an imagination-skin in every instance. Hell, my players could start fighting dragons at level 1 if I wanted them to, because I can change the stats on whatever I want whenever I want to match their level and make it the most enjoyable experience possible if that's what they're into. The PCs are supposed to be unique, that's the entire point. They're supposed to be doing things nobody else can, that's why they're heroes.
To each their own, but explicit stats aren't necessarily set in stone as a DM until the monsters hit the board. It's all relative, and it's all suggestions, and it's all about the players having fun.
If I was a player in Academy of Secrets and we won at level 7-8ish, I would have a dumb-founded expression as to how no one has won in 150 years.
At 13th level, it's a lot easier to believe, because it's a group of 13th level players running through it, so it would be expected that a 16th-ish level character to do it solo.
Contrarywise, as a 7th level party, one would assume a 10th level character could do it solo. Even in places like Golarion (though maybe not Forgotten Realms), 16th level characters tend to be pretty rare, while 10th level characters are considerably more common.
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Then don't run it how I did. I don't really care, I've posted my adaptation and my players had a blast, so go nuts with trying to figure out your own way to handle it. I'm sure our tables, groups, and play styles differ widely, which is why games like Pathfinder or D&D are so much darn fun! :)