rethinking iconic chars part 2 help with balance

[BobTheCoward]

Hello,

I started working on a project to re-imagine the classic campaigns with different Iconic characters. Those characters created a lens we see the rest of pathfinder through. So, we find a lot of people don't like a lot of standard Paizo stuff that don't fit that view (gunslingers, asian influence, certain powerful classes). What if people saw the game through these misfits? My goal is to make new pregens, and experiment to see how the playstyle affects perception.

After some polling, here is the first draft.

Half-Orc samurai. No half-orc represented in the iconics and a general dislike of asian influence.

Halfling gunslinger. Less represented than gnomes, and a general dislike for firearms in games.

Aasimar (master?/synthisist?) summoner. People generally seem to worry about summoners for a number of reasons. Aasimar because if plane-touched are ever allowed, tieflings seem more important.

Elf (maybe tengu or some other race in golarion) alchemist. People also seem to not feel it fits in.

Pros: I think it is a good start.

Cons: Does it meet all of a group's needs? As much as I'm trying to get away from fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard, that really does fulfill all the big needs.

I have two ways to try to improve this.

1) Please start with this list above. What substitutions (the fewer and the weirder, the better) can be made to the list to give the group a good chance of successfully playing through adventure paths? If you could add a fifth, what would you add.

2) Starting with the basic four needs:

melee [fighter]
skills/traps/backup [rogue]
arcane [wizard]
healing [cleric]

What weird substitutions can we make to these four roles while still meeting those needs? If you could add a fifth, what would you add?

Prestige classes are welcome. So is multiclassing and different archetypes. Those three things are underrepresented in the iconic characters.

[XMorsX]

I think that after all having an arcane and divine caster with 9th lvl spells is the best thing for a party in the long run. Substitutions for the wizard include:

- Sorcerer
- Witch
- Sorcerer with Paragon Surge (strongest option)

Substitutions for the cleric include:

- Oracle
- Druid
- Razmiran Priest Sorcerer
- Oracle with Paragon Surge (strongest option)

Substitutions for the melee (much better options than the typical fighter):

- Summoner (strongest option)
- Druid (overall stronger than the vanilla summoner IMO, but weaker for the role of BSF)
- Alchemist
- Inquisitor
- Magus (kind of fragile and runs out of resourses fast, avoid being the only melee in the party)

If you would rather have martials, in place of fighter you can have (still stronger options than the fighter usually):

- Barbarian
- Paladin
- Ranger (nor so much stronger than the fighter, but more usefull usually)

Probably a bit weaker but still competitive to the fighter are:

- Cavalier
- Samurai
- Gunslinger
- Monk (this is a clearly weaker choice than the others, but with serious optimisation he can reach the average fighter performance. Special mention goes to the archetypes: Zen Archer, Tetori, Hungry Ghost Monk, Sohei and maybe Martial Artist. These archetypes have the potential to bring monk on par with fighter or even surpass him. Also bear in mind the Qinggong as it stacks with almost everything).

For the skill monkey, instead of rogue you can have:

- Bard (best choice by far)
- Ranger (not optimal for that role, still they perform better than the rogue)
- Inquisitor (the same as the Ranger)
- Ninja (a bit better than rogue, still lacking comapred to the bard)

Bear in mind that specific build optimization can alter the relative power of the classes.

[Claxon]

I would like to point out the reason people dislike firearms is not their image within the game, but rather the mechanics of how it is manifested. The problem people have with it is targetting touch AC.

I think most people like the idea of guns, but dont like how theyve been implemented.

[BobTheCoward]

Thank you for replying XmorsX.

It seems the most "abnormal" or uncommon group I can make out of that is

Witch
Razmiran Priest Sorcerer
summoner
inquisitor or ninja

Very heavily magic, but that is cool. The Razmiran is a nice touch. Can we make it weirder?

[XMorsX]

If you have a summoner in your team, you shoudl really have a bard buffing his eidolon too. If he is a master summoner even more so.

[BobTheCoward]

I think there is a misunderstanding, XmorsX.

Adding a Bard would make the list more "traditional." I'm not asking for most effective, but the replacement for the iconics should not make things more difficult. More challenging to master or more challenging, advanced rules are fine.

I'm looking for the opposite of "traditional" and "iconic."

[XMorsX]

You think tha bard is very iconic? It could be, but I think that Rogue comes to everyone's mind first.

[Humphrey Boggard]

What could be more iconic than a giant frog-mounted Boggard cavalier? He's a commanding presence that rounds out the party nicely with mounted combat, water-bourne maneuverability, and impressive social skills. Plus, most players and GMs will find the iconic Boggard to be more likeable than Alain and substantially more likeable than Eric the Cavalier.

[XMorsX]

Don't cheat Mr. Frogman, Boggards are not available PC races. Gripplis are the closest race you can choose.

[BobTheCoward]

Good point on a bard maybe being less popular than the rogue. But is it any less common than the others on that list? Or, does that list need to be tweaked to be more capable?

[BobTheCoward]

On another note...

What do people think of this project in general? Is anyone else intrigued, or am I the only one?

[Humphrey Boggard]

BobTheCoward wrote:

On another note...

What do people think of this project in general? Is anyone else intrigued, or am I the only one?

I'm really intrigued by the idea of the Boggard cavalier. Maybe a Grippli witch too, if people would be into that kind of thing.

[Set]

My 'humanoid' Iconic groups would consist of;

Cleric or Oracle - Kobold 'dragon supremacist'
Fighter - Hobgoblin 'mameluke' ex-slave using former chains as a weapon
Rogue - Bugbear assassin and / or shadowdancer (possibly multiclassed Ranger / Rogue?)
Wizard, Witch or Alchemist - Goblin 'pyromancer'

Druid - Lizardfolk w/alligator companion
Monk - Orc focused on emulating animal abilities (fast like horse, strikes like serpent, grapples like bear, drinks like fish, curses like sailor)
Ranger - Gnoll w/hyena(don) companion
Ninja - Tengu swordmaster

Barbarian - Spriggan
Cavalier - Lesser Drow
Inquisitor - Darkfolk
Summoner - Wayang

Several of these race options would need to be toned down for PC use (removing racial HD from the bugbear, gnoll, lizardfolk, etc., lowering natural armor for the lizardfolk, cutbacks to the spriggan abilities, etc.). The kobold and goblin, on the other hand, might be toned up a tad, to keep them competitive with the more balanced races.

Standard races in non-traditional roles can also be fun, such as dwarven or halfling wizards (such as the dwarven loremaster on Core p 386) or elven barbarians, cavaliers or fighters.

That tiefling cleric of Sarenrae from Blood of Fiends p 11 is also a good one to turn some heads.

[XMorsX]

Add Alchemist to the potential skill-monkeys too. I forgot to add him.