If you want first printing, buy directly from Paizo for the ones they have as first printing. Then check your local shops for anything Paizo doesn't have in stock. Someone on board game geek posted that he picked up first printings recently, I think at Barnes and Noble.
They know about the box thickness. It is being corrected in S&S. But the game simply sold way more than they anticipated, leaving them three options:
1. Don't reprint, and let customers be angry that they couldn't get all the expansions.
2. Reprint in China and continue to have the same quality issues, and also potentially an unprofitiable cost if the volume of the order wasn't high enough.
3. Reprint in US to get better quality but have a different card size.
Paizo just had no way to estimate how successful the game would be. They actually thought they over estimated, and were still surprised at how well it sold.
Shifting to a US printer will mean that the card size will be more standardized. I believe Vic posted at some point that all the US card printers they talked to about reprints had the same size template. So it shouldn't be a problem going forward.
I understand you frustration. I'd be frustrated too if I had cards of different size. But dont' let that keep you from enjoying the game, if you do enjoy it. And don't let it stop you from getting Skull and Shackles.
I have had zero issues with cards being the incorrect size. I have not done a lot of comparison, but then again for me, it does not matter. I use sleeves so the impact would be minimal to me.
I think that all of this is really besides the point, though. If I like a game and play it enough that I need to worry about the cards being completely uniform, does it really matter? If you are will to spend more money to get a uniform set of cards, then you are probably playing quite often. I would say, just enjoy the content. It is a great game.
The game has not been out all that long, and they are working on fixing any of the minor issues that have come up with printing, and are trying to provide all of us with a great product. They are constantly trying to improve both the game and their process. I think S&S will be amazing, and I can't wait.
Also, you really shouldn't be upset with Vic for just offering some suggestions on free ideas to make the card issue less of a factor and relaying information to all of us. Just an opinion.
My character add-on deck is 2nd printing while all my adventure decks are 1st (so far.) I keep thinking about sourcing a 1st character deck just to make my game uniform. But then I think of how that would just be a waste of money.
As the owner of the game, and by reading these forums, I know about the card differences: 1st vs. 2nd, US vs. China, etc. And If I think about it while playing, I can pick out a character deck card from the rest. But NOBODY else in my several play groups has any clue. To date, difference in cards has made zero difference in play.
Besides, the cards get marked up with use anyway. Dinged edges, bending/warping, wear, etc. The cards are not going to remain 100% indistinguishable from one another. Yeah, I could sleeve them. But my thoughts on that are: 1. I don't want the added cost of the sleeves, 2. I don't want the added hassle of taking the time to sleeve them all, 3. I want to be able to utilize the box as-is, 4. Even in sleeves, cards can be damaged, 5. Sleeved cards will not run through my cheapo card shuffler, and finally 6. The game is not a collector's item so there's no need to keep it in pristine condition.
I know what you mean about the sleeves, it can be a little time consuming, but for me, it is totally worth it. I have around 1000 sleeves just lying around from playing TCGs for most of my life. Another thing, when I shuffle a deck, my hands have a natural feel for sleeved cards. I almost never play any sort of collectible card game without using sleeves. It is really a personal preference. Also, with how much I play this game, I would like to minimize damage to the cards as much as possible.
I just picked up the base set (1st printing) and the character add-on deck (2nd printing) from my local game store, and noticed the difference as soon as I combined them.
For a game that relies on shuffling, this is arguably a defect. I appreciate that Paizo can't feasibly recall/replace the whole 1st printing (and I've seen a similar but much more egregious situation go unaddressed back in the day with the whole Jyhad/Vampire fiasco), but it's still a deal-breaker for me.
The only solution I can see is to try to get 1st printings of the remaining decks, so that the entire set is uniform (except for the add-on, unless I can convince the game store to let me swap it).
If I am able to do this, will there be any compatibility issues going forward with Skull and Shackles or later sets (which presumably will be standardized to 2nd printing sizes)? Are the sets going to be combined in any way?
The sets won't be combined unless you play some homebrew scenario or something. But Skull and Shackles will not reference any cards from Rise of the Runelords. You can take characters from one and play them in the other, but since the character cards aren't shuffled, the size won't be an issue for that.
Also, the Base Set has been released as a Second Printing now. With the comment above that redfaern made of getting adventure deck 2 in a second printing, that means everything except the yet to be released deck 6 is now published in a second printing. And I'm sure deck 6 will sell quickly enough to be issued as a second printing shortly after its initial release.
OK, thanks. Since I have a 1st printing of the base set, the cheapest way of getting uniform cards for the entire game is to get everything else in 1st printings.
Am I understanding this correctly? Is it possible to get 1st printings of all the decks so as to have uniformly-sized cards?
thanks again
OK, thanks. Since I have a 1st printing of the base set, the cheapest way of getting uniform cards for the entire game is to get everything else in 1st printings.
Am I understanding this correctly? Is it possible to get 1st printings of all the decks so as to have uniformly-sized cards?
thanks again
It is possible, in that everything was issued in a first printing. But the difficulty will be finding some of them. But they were issued.
You should check out Paizo's non-mint stock to see if they are first printing or not.
http://paizo.com/store/sale/scratchNDent/pathfinderACG
Someone in customer service could verify what printing they are. I've found calling them extremely efficient. They open at 10 Pacific Time (so 2 hours after I post this).
I managed to find 2-5 in first printings at my local game shop, yay. (The people there looked at me as if I were crazy when I told them about the differences in the cards... I guess because they sleeve everything, they hadn't noticed.)
I assume that the first boxes of 6 to hit the shelves soon will be first printings. So my set will be uniform except for the add-on, and if I understand correctly, I don't need to use any of those cards other than the character cards unless I have 5 players, yes?
thanks for the info!
Well...there are some unique boons in the character add-on deck that are in the base set. And some of them are great for some of the characters that come with it. There is a Sabertooth Tiger (great for for Lini). Amulet of Mighty Fists (great for Sajan). Deathbane Light Crossbow +1 and Crown of Charisma are also in there.
But you wouldn't HAVE to use those if you didn't want to.
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I looked at this thread specifically because i noticed the difference immediately. One shuffle and I noticed the size difference, and just a few cards in I noticed a color difference. I've dealt with this so many times with different games that get expansiond, the expansions have often had this problem, to me while it isn't enjoyable, I think it's great that at least the reason for it is domestic printing. I've just stopped shuffling and to mix the decks up I deal them out in 2/3/4 piles then mixing up the piles and doing it 2-3 times to make sure they're mixed up. it works for character decks and loction decks cause they're so small but it doesn't work with the banished decks, those I just deal with the clumping :(. Still I enjoy the game, my friend got the RotR base set, so I'm gonna pick up the S&S set.
My cards are 2 different colors making it very easy to tell what the cards are at locations once you start flipping over the cards. It's very disappointing that this kind of thing can happen. Who changes printing services like this ??? If you want to change printers then do it on the next expansion. What is the recourse ???
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I don't think Paizo is offering any particular recourse for the differences between the 1st Printing and 2nd Printing.
The reason they changed printers is that they had quality control problems with the company that did the first printing. See this thread to read about people complaining about the difference in color before there even was a second printing. When Paizo got to the point where they were out of inventory and need to start second printings, they decided to switch printers to improve the quality. But that meant there would be differences: shorter cards and color variation. So there choices were to either stay with the same printer and continue to receive low quality results, or switch printers to get more consistent results.
All that being said, if you think the differences in your cards aren't simply the result of the different printing runs but a real quality control issue, contact customer service with images of your cards.
Also, depending on which decks you have that are first printings, you could potentially sell them (some are probably highly sought after by people that have first printing base sets and want first printings of all the adventure decks and character add-on). The entire line from Base Set to Adventure 5 is available in the second printing run at this point and Paizo has already ordered a second printing of deck 6 (the final deck of Rise of the Runelords), so you could purchase all second printing cards.
I hope that helps in some way.
Thanks for the reply. I'm not interested in the hassle of selling them but that is at least one solution. I have sent a picture of my cards to support. Hopefully they will help me out. I had just bought 1000 clear card protectors for my cards at the same time I bought the game and expansion packs. The only possible solution I can see is to sleeve the cards with Ultra Pro Black Matte protectors which is about 70 dollars for 1200 protectors. I also had purchased the wooden box so my cards would fit comfortably with the sleeves. I'm well over 200 dollars invested now Pazio needs to step up and help out.
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Paizo can't be held responsible for making sure people buy the same printing, and they've done all they can do by explaining the size difference on their forums. A rule that applies to all games, is always make sure you buy all expansions in the same printing. It isn't something unique to Paizo, you should do it for every game.
In hindsight, the best option may have been to make the US printing a second /edition/ with its own identity and a separate ISBN number. This would have made it far easier to consistently purchase the edition you want.
I am not sure how much of an issue that would have caused for retailers with a large r back stock of first printing. It may have narrowed des, or may expand them. If I were a retailer, I would note which I had, as there is demand for both printings at the moment.
Chief Technical Officer
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Maybe there are other games, who have released printings that were simply not compatable with one another? If so please list them, that I will know never to invest in those games in the future. Thanks.
Magic: The Gathering is the first that comes to my mind...
Maybe there are other games, who have released printings that were simply not compatable with one another? If so please list them, that I will know never to invest in those games in the future. Thanks.Magic: The Gathering is the first that comes to my mind...
How did that game do? Surely it was not at all successful what with the lack of quality control and all that.
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Maybe there are other games, who have released printings that were simply not compatable with one another? If so please list them, that I will know never to invest in those games in the future. Thanks.Magic: The Gathering is the first that comes to my mind...
I have no issue with how you guys have done the print editions but, I gotta ask -- Magic? Every card is compatible with everything. Certain formats have certain restrictions, but in anything unofficial most don't care, and there's even formats that really are any cards you want.
I have no issue with how you guys have done the print editions but, I gotta ask -- Magic? Every card is compatible with everything. Certain formats have certain restrictions, but in anything unofficial most don't care, and there's even formats that really are any cards you want.Maybe there are other games, who have released printings that were simply not compatable with one another? If so please list them, that I will know never to invest in those games in the future. Thanks.Magic: The Gathering is the first that comes to my mind...
The link Vic gave was specifically to the Alpha and Beta printings of the Limited Edition of Magic, which was the first released.
Although Alpha and Beta are referred to as different sets by some, officially they are the same set; Wizards of the Coast had expected that people wouldn't necessarily be able to tell the two press runs apart. Beta fixed a number of misprints and errors on cards. The printer accidentally used different corner rounding dies for the second run, resulting in Beta cards being noticeably distinct in shape and appearance from Alpha cards.
What I am saying is that when you are making a CARD game, Quality Assurance has to be paramount, even, dare I say it, between printings, or you aren't going to get much repeat business.
I would say that I think you're putting too much emphasis in your own experience. I suspect that there arent many in your situation - who received decks from different printings and for whom it is a big issue. From what I see they have no problem with repeat business (maybe there's about to be a massive drop off in subscriptions with Skulls and Shackles, but that isnt my impression).
I suspect that Paizo are more disappointed than you are in how this turned out. Nonetheless, things like this happen. What they have consistently demonstrated is an ability to learn from their mis-steps and put things in place to ensure they arent repeated. They got the first batch printed in China and the quality was unacceptable so they switched to a superior printer for the second printing and future sets - there is a problem between different printings, but if they'd stuck with the Chinese printer for reprints of the RotRL expansions there'd still have been an issue, given the color matching problems.
Without denying how annoying it obviously is for you, I'd encourage you to bear that approach to errors/troubleshooting in mind in deciding whether to continue picking up PACG sets. The first one may have had unacceptable Quality Control issues, in your mind, but it seems to me that issue has been addressed for future sets. Not buying those on the grounds that you were unhappy with the lack of redress with RotRL might be a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I think there are more people than you suspect who are getting sets with different printings. For example, and the only example I can speak to from experience: Amazon.com is selling the base set, the addon, and all adventure decks as if they were the same printing.
I was able to return my decks from Amazon (Decks 3, 5 and 6) because they were all China printings and I needed US Printings to match my other decks and base set. I had checked with customer service before ordering and been assured that I would receive the US printings. After a few back and forth emails and an unsuccessful attempt at a replacement shipment, I should have my final part of the refund in a couple of days.
I am not sure how many of your decks you have opened, but I would bet that with some persistence you could get Amazon to replace and/or refund your purchase. If you mention the incompatibility with previous sets (especially if you purchased the previous sets from Amazon) they may even refund them if they have been opened.
Ideally you could get them replaced and receive the printing you want. I haven't had much luck with that myself, but like you said, its kind of random with Amazon, so you may get lucky and/or benefit from my dealings with customer service in that they are at least aware of an issue.
If you are interested in seeking out the decks you need in the printings you need, you might try to get in touch with Funagain Games in Eugene, Oregon via their Facebook page. They have some china printing decks in stock at the moment. Not sure if they will ship direct, but you may be able to work something out with them. The chain has a web presence as well, but I have no experience with their customer service to know if they can/ will check the printing for you before shipping, thus my suggestion to contact a store directly.
You may also check some of the other online stores like Noble Knight, Miniatures Market, CoolStuff, etc. Check with their customer service BEFORE ordering and ask what you need to do to guarantee the printing you want and how they handle it (re: charges, etc) if somehow you still with up with the incorrect version.
All of this advice assumes that you are actually interested enough to put forth the effort and risk additional disappointment. I understand the frustration but, for me at least, in the end the game is worth it.
Is the current base set a US printed set?
Is the current base set a US printed set?
Rise of the Runelords has had its Base Set go into a second printing (aka US printing). Paizo is selling the second printing of it. Some retailers may still have stock of first printing (aka Chinese) in their inventory. A store I was at a few weeks ago had a second printing base set on display.
The Skull and Shackles Base Set will also be a US Printing, as will everything going forward.
Thanks for the response Hawkmoon.
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For those having major issues, CSI (Cool Stuff Inc.) is where I had to order some of my stuff from since I couldn't afford the shipping from Paizo immediately at release and Amazon kept moving back the 'release' date by months at a time.
You can email their customer support to inquire which printing they currently have available at the time (is what I did to make sure) and I was able to either outright order and receive the first printing, or request that they make sure I received the first printing in the case they had both prints available.
I know shipping can be expensive, especially for base sets, but it's possible that they may have the first printing for it and all the additional decks since it's an online retailer that not everyone knows about or uses (so they've had fewer orders compared to somewhere like Amazon and the other stores using Amazon).
Hopefully, with S&S and beyond, I'll be able to set up a subscription with Paizo, as I much prefer ordering directly for things, but I couldn't order directly for RotR because of the first print/second print thing since I didn't free money to do so until way after they were released for some of them.
I would say that I think you're putting too much emphasis in your own experience. I suspect that there arent many in your situation - who received decks from different printings and for whom it is a big issue. From what I see they have no problem with repeat businessI think there are more people than you suspect who are getting sets with different printings. For example, and the only example I can speak to from experience: Amazon.com is selling the base set, the addon, and all adventure decks as if they were the same printing. You cannot order a certain printing, they are just selling all the products of this line willy-nilly. So if you hear by word of mouth that this game is great, and you go to amazon and buy yourself a set, you will more than likely end up with different card sizes within that set.
Yeah, I meant that I dont think it's having a significant impact on sales (In response to: "What I am saying is that when you are making a CARD game, Quality Assurance has to be paramount, even, dare I say it, between printings, or you aren't going to get much repeat business."). The problem of mismatched sizes is clearly a thing - a lot of people seem to be dealing with it (via hunting down the correct versions or sleeving). Or they're accepting it as 'one of those things'. For my part, it would bug me, but it wouldnt make the game unplayable. I appreciate we each have different standards though - I didnt mean to suggest you were alone in your view, it was a comment on the commercial effect.
I suspect that Paizo are more disappointed than you are in how this turned out. Nonetheless, things like this happen. What they have consistently demonstrated is an ability to learn from their mis-steps and put things in place to ensure they arent repeated. They got the first batch printed in China and the quality was unacceptable so they switched to a superior printer for the second printing and future sets - there is a problem between different printings, but if they'd stuck with the Chinese printer for reprints of the RotRL expansions there'd still have been an issue, given the color matching problems.My gut agrees with you here. From the random posts I've seen from the folks at Paizo, they seem very genuine, very grounded, and very much for the gamer. A company I would want to support and keep track of, to see what else they might have up their sleeves.
Except that I just spent a ton of money on one of their products that is simply unplayable in the state that I got it in. I did see the color variances in my Chinese printed base set, which was a turn off, certainly. I was a bit disappointed in that, but it was forgivable because: things happen, and the game was still playable. I was still having a lot of fun with the game until I got to the US printed Adventure Deck 3. Suddenly the game became unplayable, and here we are. I didn't get on these boards and cry about the color issues of the Chinese printing, because it wasn't a deal breaker for me. What IS a deal breaker is when you spend X amount of money on something (a game, a car, anything) and it is unusable.
I'd encourage you to bear that approach to errors/troubleshooting in mind in deciding whether to continue picking up PACG sets. The first one may have had unacceptable Quality Control issues, in your mind, but it seems to me that issue has been addressed for future sets. Not buying those on the grounds that you were unhappy with the lack of redress with RotRL might be a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.True enough. Yet it feels like, for now at least, that I will be doing just that. I have no inclination to go searching out for another Paizo product after this fiasco. Guess I'm gun shy, and maybe I will miss out on some of the good fun that these folks can pump out, but at least I will *certainly* miss out on any other nightmare scenarios that might be in store for me instead (ala buying a card game that comes with different sized cards which are supposed to be shuffled into eachother in order to play the game).
Fair enough. There’s certainly plenty of games out there. For my part (as a long term Paizo fan) I wont pretend there’s never any issues, but they’re very committed to learning from their mistakes and making the next games better.