How Special are the PCs Simply by the Fact that they are the PCs?


Gamer Life General Discussion


Hi all,

In reading a lot of threads, I'm seeing many people espousing a point of view that states that the PCs are incredibly heroic people just because they are the PCs. Instead of assuming that, I figured I would ask and get opinions.

Are the PCs:

1.) Heroic because they are the PCs. Even at level 1, these PCs are special people above and beyond other level 1 people.

2.) Just like every other level 1 character with a PC class. PCs only become special or heroic based on their actions in the campaign world.

3.) Something in-between. Explain.

Dark Archive

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I think that greatly depends on setting/mood of the campaign.

In my games, I tend to go for 3)

Anyone with PC class levels is a cut above the mold...even a 1st level fighter is something more than the 5th level warrior, for instance...less experienced, but with greater potential.

Dark Archive

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IMO:

NPCs with character classes represent about 5% of the population.

PCs are superior to NPCs with character classes because they have superior stats and a couple of traits.

PCs are governed by the same rules as NPCs - i.e. the inhabit the same "world", have the same concerns, advantages, barriers, hangups, etc.

That's it - everything else is down to the player.

My definition of heroism is similar to my definition of bravery, honesty, integrity and so on. It's something that you earn by your actions, not a label you can just pin on yourself whenever you want to.

Richard


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As Bruno says, it is primarily a function of the setting and mood of the campaign - so take into account that my following answers are all about the mood I choose for the campaigns which I run within my own setting, and not me saying that the following is an accurate description of how things should be viewed when thinking of the Golarion (or any other published) setting.

The PCs have heroic potential by way of being 1st level PC rather than 1st level NPC - this is represented by having (typically) superior ability scores and by gaining experience at the rate of their accomplishments, rather than in a way that makes a 1st level fighter reach 9th level after 30+ years of military career.

They are the characters which will take the "starring roles" in the story of the campaign once all is said and done and the bards sing of their exploits - but that doesn't mean tat the character being heroic of proportion and deed is a foregone conclusion; the characters must use what they have been given to earn the power and respect deserving of true heroes.

That said, my settings tend to involve 98% of the population being "0-level" and the remaining 2% covering all PCs and NPCs with any levels in PC classes, and leaning heavily on the low end of the spectrum (i.e. if they were characters within my setting King Arthur and the Knights of the Round would be Fighters of 9th level and lower, and Gandalf the Grey would be a 9th level Wizard, and be at least 2 levels higher than any of the other Fellowship of the Ring members).

For me, it's a matter of style - and I have always felt it easier to make the PCs feel unique and "awesome" if the NPCs to which they are compared are only "superior" for half the campaign at most.


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#2.

I play in a semi-high-power homebrew world. NPCs with class levels are common. (By which I mean PC classes - the only NPC classes I use are Aristocrat and Expert. Commoners are 1-HP blobs without stats and Adepts and Warriors get reclassed into something appropriate.) Judging by the responses thus far, I imagine I'm strongly in the minority in this.

Until the PCs hit around level 5-8, depending on region, they're possibly above average but they're not the best thing around. Once they hit that plateau, they start getting noticeably above the NPCs' bell curve. There are still some people better than they (for example, there's a Knight in the high teens who's a heroine from an engagement prior to the campaign I'm currently running that the PCs have had the opportunity to make acquaintance of - it's Kingmaker so hobnobbing with foreign heroes is expected) but the number becomes exponentially smaller after about level 8.


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Somewhere between #2 and #3...

One of the conceits of my world are that everyone gains XP over time, even if they never put down a single goblin their whole life. It's just that the rigors of combat and adventuring net XP at a much faster rate than turning out horseshoes, etc. I believe the rate I've used is 1 XP per day (ala the old adage "you learn something new every day"), which puts most humans at 2nd level by the time they'd be of the age of majority, and most elves at 5th. IMO, this explains/supports a number of fantasy tropes in a nice, organic manner while allowing the players to be able to see their characters progress and surpass NPCs.

As for differences between PCs and NPC, much of it depends on the tone of the campaign and the roles said characters will play. Ability scores for most NPCs will fall somewhere in the 15-25 point-buy range, while for PCs it's usually 25. Class selection for NPCs is based upon whatever makes sense for their line of work. Since "Elsemar" is a rather secular, cosmopolitan world, and its inhabitants are no strangers to the presence of magic, I'm more apt to use wizard and cleric over adept. Likewise, due to the widespread influence of various martial arts systems, I'm more likely to use the fighter over the warrior unless I'm simply using premade stat blocks.

With NPCs being fairly robust, the thing that sets the PCs apart is generally their destiny or ambition. Typically our campaigns focus on the movers and shakers of the world — characters whose story arcs revolve around being farmboys turned heroes are far less common than the PCs being agents of the crown or itinerant nobles.

Ultimately then, I'd say the main things that set apart the PCs from NPCs in my campaigns are:
1) Because they are adventuring, they gain XP rapidly. This makes them much more capable at an earlier age than is normal.
2) Usually they have some degree of political privilege or wealth that puts them on more equal footing with the nobility — a realm in which strength of arms and treasure alone are less likely to resolve all their problems.


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Bruno pretty much nailed with the variability based on world.

That said, I'd like to point out something that richard noted:
"My definition of heroism is... something that you earn by your actions, not a label you can just pin on yourself whenever you want to."

This is true for me as well. That is different, in my mind, from "special".

In our games, "special" is not "special snow flake" type of special, but rather special as in they do not need to conform to the society in which they come from.

richard and I have discussed this extensively before, and I think any disagreement we have may be partially based on a fine but deep nuance of how we define special, unique, and so on, as well as "by the rules" - I agree that PCs are subject to the same rules of the world (though I argue that the players are not, and that these are two different things). To me, what makes the PCs unique is that they are, in fact, player characters, more than anything else. They are there to act as the vehicle by which players create impact on the world, one way or the other.

The world at large certainly doesn't see it that way. To the world, the PCs are special by way of their actions as well as their abilities. The world at large has no concept of "player character" and "non-player character".

To the in-world view when an NPC wizard discovers a spell, it's because he's worked hard and successfully researched it (via level up, or via research). Similarly, when a PC wizard discovers a spell, it's because he's worked hard and successfully researched it (via level up, or via research). But to our view, the NPC wizard might have never heard of bloodmoney, but somehow the PC wizard can select it as a spell... and that's because it's the player making the choice, not the character.

One final thing that alters the "specialness" of the PCs (and NPCs) is how closely you hew to the fluff-parts of the various classes - are they as rare as they're described as being? Or is there one around every corner? And so on. In this, RAW and fluff come into something of a conflict because, in theory, you're able to get any <insert level here> spell based on city size. Because of the conflicting spell-levels of different classes, you need to presume that every PC class (maybe with one or two exceptions) that casts spells exists of a level appropriate to casts those spells in a given community. This can harm immersion in a couple of ways. Many times, you're left with the question, "what'you need the PCs for?" if you've got lots of these guys of various levels, and the other is, "wait, so-and-so's still following us?" if you have few but they tend to show up wherever.

While both of these are exaggerations, they are valid questions - especially the first begs need of an answer.

In that regard, the PCs are more heroic than these other high-level groups, certainly, but become less special outside of their heroism... but that makes most people rather unlikable in my opinion. Certainly, the level of availability of such services undercuts the rarity that is otherwise implied by the classes themselves. Thus, either the PCs are the only people that are worthwhile, or the GM is going to have to make some adjustments to the presumptions of their world in order to fit in with how the various classes are presumed to be based on the description.

My favorite idea so far is one that Set mentioned here a short while back - just give adepts hypothetical access to every spell from any spell list (but not the ability to scribe it) and, viola, just like that you've solved most of your problems all at once.
(It should be noted: Adepts do not have limitless/day cantrips/orisons; they are built with NPC stuff instead of PC stuff, are capped out at fifth level spells, and they have very limited spells/day, making them definitively "not overpowered" even with this option. Also, I might be slightly misquoting Set's idea - sorry if I am, Set -, but I didn't memorize the post, just the gist I got from it.)

But that's house rules.

Rules-wise, the fluff contradicts the general availability of spells-on-demand, unless cities have a crew of "traveling casters" that go everywhere based on size and population. (Incidentally, there'd be a lot of clerics to cover all those domain-level variations).

Oh! Another thing that makes PCs special is their wealth. NPCs aren't as well equipped as PCs for some reason.

But none of this is the same as heroic or notable to the world at large. There have been very special, skilled, or even genius people that have gone down in history as, "that guy". Thus being "special" isn't the same as being "notable" - the latter comes about by action rather than innate talent (though the innate talent can help create the notability).


3. PCs are played by human beings. That makes them pretty special!

More seriously, I'm a big fan of PCs only being as special as you make them and not being inherently special for the fact of being PCs. Most dnd games I play the majority of the population are commoners, which makes a level 1 fighter look pretty kickbutt.

Sovereign Court

#2 for me. I tend to play a lot of games though like call of cthulhu and Traveller where PC death is common. You sense of adventure is what sets you apart from everyone else.

The issue with heroic for me is once the PCs realize they are special or better than the rest they turn into tyrants.


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2, but to the extreme. I don't even start games at 1st level. I build NPCs with the same point-buy as the PCs get. They even get traits (though of course they don't have as much gear). So the PCs aren't necessarily more special than any other 6th level bard or oracle or whatever.


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I have to say #3. As someone who has said this in other threads, I feel the need to explain myself in greater detail.

I approach GMing Pathfinder as a storyteller. The PCs are the main characters. Their class levels and relative ranking aren't relevant to that (although, because it's simply how the game works, most people and monster they encounter will not be more powerful than they are). They are the protagonists.

So when I say things like "The PCs are set apart from the rest of the world", as I have in these threads you mentioned, I don't mean they have special powers that set them a part. I mean they are set apart because of the fact that the story is about them, so they aren't beholden to the averages and norms people in the setting generally are.

For instance, I'm perfectly comfortable with a PC catfolk in a setting where catfolk aren't a part of the population because he can just be the only catfolk in the world. That comes with a degree of baggage and roleplaying restrictions. Maybe he was cursed like The Beast, maybe he's an elf who worshipped a cat spirit so devoutly he began to take on cat-like features. Maybe NPCs will see him as an animal and refer to him as an "it" belonging to the other party members.

We can work something out. Whether it's a weird race, or an elf lady with STR 18, or someone specializing in magic that no one uses. It's just more of a reason that the PCs are the group the story follows.


Quote:
So when I say things like "The PCs are set apart from the rest of the world", as I have in these threads you mentioned, I don't mean they have special powers that set them a part. I mean they are set apart because of the fact that the story is about them, so they aren't beholden to the averages and norms people in the setting generally are.

^ BAM. That's what I mean by "special".

Speaking of elf-lady with 18 STR...

Grand Lodge

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I think that, what makes PCs special it's because they are the sole motor of the game. Without them, game over.

Of course, this is a "metagaming" explanation.

Speaking ingame, PCS are no better than any other NPCs around the gaming world. Depending on the setting, they can be seen as a bit above the normal person, or a bit worse than a normal person.

Economicaly-wise, a 1st level character that wants to go adventuring contributes in nothing with the society, people like that tend to be seen as vagabonds, errands, bandits or mercernaries. People tend to be cautious near them, because they don't know what to expect from a person that gave up trying to fit on society and "left for adventures". When their fame/infamy grows (with their levels), the common people starts to form a opinion about them and (given time) call them do gooders, and heroes. But the "Hero" staple take a while to be gained.


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Tacticslion wrote:
Quote:
So when I say things like "The PCs are set apart from the rest of the world", as I have in these threads you mentioned, I don't mean they have special powers that set them a part. I mean they are set apart because of the fact that the story is about them, so they aren't beholden to the averages and norms people in the setting generally are.

^ BAM. That's what I mean by "special".

Speaking of elf-lady with 18 STR...

Man i'm looking forward to season 3. I want to know WTF is up with Brian Lewis dressed as a clown.


Ellis Mirari wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Quote:
So when I say things like "The PCs are set apart from the rest of the world", as I have in these threads you mentioned, I don't mean they have special powers that set them a part. I mean they are set apart because of the fact that the story is about them, so they aren't beholden to the averages and norms people in the setting generally are.

^ BAM. That's what I mean by "special".

Speaking of elf-lady with 18 STR...

Man i'm looking forward to season 3. I want to know WTF is up with Brian Lewis dressed as a clown.

I know! Such a great series!


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Unless you are creating stories about normal people having normal problems with say, relationships, work, and the like, it is going to be difficult to avoid making any protagonist in a fictional story "ordinary" or "normal."

Fantasy is more like myth-making. The protagonists are more special due to the genre itself. They are "heroic," rather than "ordinary."

I've used this example many times:

Glance a stormtrooper in the ankle in full armor and he dies. Shoot Princess Leia dead-on in the shoulder through her poncho and she's going to be okay in a couple of minutes. Why? Because she is special and important to the story. The stormtrooper is not. But --- make the stormtrooper the protagonist in a spin off, say a comic book series, give him a name, and suddenly he can take many injuries before losing consciousness, and might not ever even die "on camera."

In RPGs, we measure this "specialness" through the use of hit points and accumulation of special abilities that make him tougher and harder to kill. Special characters have more hit points, making them automatically a cut above the ordinary people around them.

High hit points represents the character's importance to the story.

It's just one abstract that shows that it is almost impossible for the PC NOT to be special, both mechanically, and reflective of that, by their importance to the story.

Now, it can be fun to play "ordinaries," but the temptation to make them great, I think, will always be there. If they level up at all, they are already becoming part of the "specialness."


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Bruunwald wrote:
Glance a stormtrooper in the ankle in full armor and he dies.

I bet he would've lived longer if he said his name once. As long as he doesn't mention his near retirement.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tormsskull wrote:

Hi all,

In reading a lot of threads, I'm seeing many people espousing a point of view that states that the PCs are incredibly heroic people just because they are the PCs. Instead of assuming that, I figured I would ask and get opinions.

Are the PCs:

1.) Heroic because they are the PCs. Even at level 1, these PCs are special people above and beyond other level 1 people.

2.) Just like every other level 1 character with a PC class. PCs only become special or heroic based on their actions in the campaign world.

3.) Something in-between. Explain.

They're the heroes and/or protagonists of your campaign. Everything else is just supporting cast. Since the game is about heroic fantasy, it goes to reason that yes, they are special.

Now how you define "special" is up to each GM.


Heroic Depends on Reputation and Actions, but PCs do have more Power than NPCs, including NPCs with PC classes

there are Grouped Tiers of Characters for the groups i play in

the 4 Character Tiers

NPC classed characters with the Basic NPC Array
NPC classed characters with the Heroic NPC Array
PC classed characters with the Heroic NPC Array
PC classed Characters with 25 point buy, PC wealth and 2 Traits, often Cohorts, PCs or Primary Villains


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As a DM, my PCs are specials because they are the main characters of my story.

From a narrative standpoint, they are not different from any other person of their race (they don't see better, they aren't smarter or tougher etc) but mechanically speaking, I'm willing to go into further levels of details about what they can do and what they can withstand.

In RPG terms, they are allowed hero points or similar privileges, while the majority of other characters do not.

TL;DR: Yes they are special because they are the "actors" on which the camera is on all the time, not because they are intrinsically more powerful, privileged by gods or whatever.


Bruunwald wrote:
Unless you are creating stories about normal people having normal problems with say, relationships, work, and the like, it is going to be difficult to avoid making any protagonist in a fictional story "ordinary" or "normal."

Of course any PC (or even NPC) with advanced levels is going to be more "special" than a level 1 commoner. The question I'm really trying to figure out is, does the simple fact of being a PC makes that character more "special" than an NPC with the same race/class/stats/etc. Should the PC get additional benefits above and beyond what the equivalent NPC should get?

Grand Lodge

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Tormsskull wrote:
Bruunwald wrote:
Unless you are creating stories about normal people having normal problems with say, relationships, work, and the like, it is going to be difficult to avoid making any protagonist in a fictional story "ordinary" or "normal."
Of course any PC (or even NPC) with advanced levels is going to be more "special" than a level 1 commoner. The question I'm really trying to figure out is, does the simple fact of being a PC makes that character more "special" than an NPC with the same race/class/stats/etc. Should the PC get additional benefits above and beyond what the equivalent NPC should get?

You mean, ingame? out of the box, or both?

If ingame, i would say no, there is no difference between the two.

Off game, i would say yes, story doesn't goes on if the PCs loose the adventure because a group of NPCs adventures were contracted first.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tormsskull wrote:
Bruunwald wrote:
Unless you are creating stories about normal people having normal problems with say, relationships, work, and the like, it is going to be difficult to avoid making any protagonist in a fictional story "ordinary" or "normal."
Of course any PC (or even NPC) with advanced levels is going to be more "special" than a level 1 commoner. The question I'm really trying to figure out is, does the simple fact of being a PC makes that character more "special" than an NPC with the same race/class/stats/etc. Should the PC get additional benefits above and beyond what the equivalent NPC should get?

Yes. No.


Tormsskull wrote:
Of course any PC (or even NPC) with advanced levels is going to be more "special" than a level 1 commoner. The question I'm really trying to figure out is, does the simple fact of being a PC makes that character more "special" than an NPC with the same race/class/stats/etc. Should the PC get additional benefits above and beyond what the equivalent NPC should get?

Humm, define "special" and "additional benefits"

IMO, characters are as special as the story requires them to be. Most stories follow the characters because they are special in some ways, even if they are no super-humans (or super-elves or whatever).

As for additional benefits, many games work with an asymmetrical system (the rules for PCs are not the same as the rules for everyone else). This allows to focus on rules affecting the PCs without bloating the rule-set too much. d20 attempts to be as symmetrical as possible, but former editions of (A)D&D weren't. Even 4th edition has some asymmetrical elements (mainly minion and elite creatures rules).

So depending on your definition, "special" and "additional benefits" aren't necessarily linked, nor are they mutually exclusive.


Laurefindel wrote:

Humm, define "special" and "additional benefits"

I was keeping the terms intentionally vague to see how others define the term. I've seen some people use the trait system and thus give free traits to the PCs which the NPCs do not get. This would clearly qualify as an additional benefit that the PCs get simply because they are PCs.

Are there others? Some people have mentioned using hero points, which I am assuming only the PCs get.

So, how special (how many freebies) do the PCs get simply because they are PCs?


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The world revolves around the PCs. Or at least the part of it we pay attention to does. The camera focuses on them.

They don't get specific mechanical freebies in my games. They will have higher stats than most NPCs, but major NPCs will have the same or even better in exceptional cases. Just like most NPCs will be at lower WBL, but BBEGs will be close to PC wealth.

Conceptually, I usually think of PCs as among the very few that actually advance by getting experience through adventuring. Most NPCs don't. They gain levels by training or much slower life experience. Thus PCs tend to level much faster than NPCs. Not that it really matters much: NPCs level at the demands of plot anyway.

What PCs do get is a fair chance. NPC villains and monsters are there to fight them and lose. They're not going to just get wiped out by an enemy they don't have a chance against. Even in sandbox mode, any such enemies will have metaphorical warning flags up all around so the PCs don't stumble in unknowingly.

Grand Lodge

Tormsskull wrote:
Laurefindel wrote:

Humm, define "special" and "additional benefits"

I was keeping the terms intentionally vague to see how others define the term. I've seen some people use the trait system and thus give free traits to the PCs which the NPCs do not get. This would clearly qualify as an additional benefit that the PCs get simply because they are PCs.

Are there others? Some people have mentioned using hero points, which I am assuming only the PCs get.

So, how special (how many freebies) do the PCs get simply because they are PCs?

I don't give any freebies apart form those thejeff gives.


I don't think the PCs being special has to or by default is defined by game mechanics, just like being a PC isn't defined by game mechanics—it's defined by the fact that a player is at the reins and not the GM.

This can have an impact on the game but it's not expressed in numbers, at least for me. I'm more inclined to shave a few points of damage off of a hit if it would cause a PC to die in a way that I don't like, but not for an NPC.


I likewise don't give the PCs much the NPCs don't get. NPCs get traits, they tend to have PC-level stats unless they're blah commoners (which, as I said before, don't even get stats in my games), and I tend to give most opponents PC-level wealth as well, because that gives me more freedom to do stuff with their gear.

And yeah, a lot of what Jeff said I agree with.


Orthos wrote:

I likewise don't give the PCs much the NPCs don't get. NPCs get traits, they tend to have PC-level stats unless they're blah commoners (which, as I said before, don't even get stats in my games), and I tend to give most opponents PC-level wealth as well, because that gives me more freedom to do stuff with their gear.

And yeah, a lot of what Jeff said I agree with.

Interesting!

How do you keep the PCs who beat those opponents from getting mondo-ultra-mega wealth then? Any special rules? Because a party of 6 PCs that defeats two parties of 3 equal leveled NPCs with PC wealth will have just gained their entire expected wealth by level without getting too much of the XP they needed to level up, and if the PCs have much more than PC wealth, then the NPCs having PC wealth still puts them below.


That said, I've also played a few games where the PCs were the PCs because they were special: One where'd they each started a bit of the essence of a dead god, granting them some special powers. That's why we played those characters rather than some others.
I've got a game in mind where the PCs are actually outsiders of a kind, though they don't really know it. Their special powers will help lead to clues to their actual nature and purpose.


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Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Orthos wrote:

I likewise don't give the PCs much the NPCs don't get. NPCs get traits, they tend to have PC-level stats unless they're blah commoners (which, as I said before, don't even get stats in my games), and I tend to give most opponents PC-level wealth as well, because that gives me more freedom to do stuff with their gear.

And yeah, a lot of what Jeff said I agree with.

Interesting!

How do you keep the PCs who beat those opponents from getting mondo-ultra-mega wealth then? Any special rules? Because a party of 6 PCs that defeats two parties of 3 equal leveled NPCs with PC wealth will have just gained their entire expected wealth by level without getting too much of the XP they needed to level up, and if the PCs have much more than PC wealth, then the NPCs having PC wealth still puts them below.

Well, a lot of it is that some of that "wealth" is virtual, in the form of inherent bonuses that aren't based on items, that all characters get to pick from as they level. That removes a lot of the "big six" items that are built into the system, since they wouldn't stack with the inherent bonuses, so a lot of the loot the party gets is either not useful for them as straight bonuses and boosts (and thus get sold off or bartered to an NPC or something like that), or is nifty little items with a cool and/or flavorful effect that are not immensely powerful but might give them a nice trick or two up their sleeves.

I'm a big fan of the Magic Item Compendium from 3.5 and other books that provide cool items that do small things but don't fit the "must have" mold of the Big Six items.


Tormsskull wrote:

Hi all,

In reading a lot of threads, I'm seeing many people espousing a point of view that states that the PCs are incredibly heroic people just because they are the PCs. Instead of assuming that, I figured I would ask and get opinions.

Are the PCs:

1.) Heroic because they are the PCs. Even at level 1, these PCs are special people above and beyond other level 1 people.

2.) Just like every other level 1 character with a PC class. PCs only become special or heroic based on their actions in the campaign world.

3.) Something in-between. Explain.

3.)

PCs in my game worlds are about on par with any equivalent NPC as far as ability and skill goes. What they do have going for them, however, is a degree of ... you could call it luck, fate, narrativium, threads in the pattern, the force, whatever. It's something intangible that means they're going to be drawn into the plot and able to affect it far more than they ought to be able to.


Orthos wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Orthos wrote:

I likewise don't give the PCs much the NPCs don't get. NPCs get traits, they tend to have PC-level stats unless they're blah commoners (which, as I said before, don't even get stats in my games), and I tend to give most opponents PC-level wealth as well, because that gives me more freedom to do stuff with their gear.

And yeah, a lot of what Jeff said I agree with.

Interesting!

How do you keep the PCs who beat those opponents from getting mondo-ultra-mega wealth then? Any special rules? Because a party of 6 PCs that defeats two parties of 3 equal leveled NPCs with PC wealth will have just gained their entire expected wealth by level without getting too much of the XP they needed to level up, and if the PCs have much more than PC wealth, then the NPCs having PC wealth still puts them below.

Well, a lot of it is that some of that "wealth" is virtual, in the form of inherent bonuses that aren't based on items, that all characters get to pick from as they level. That removes a lot of the "big six" items that are built into the system, since they wouldn't stack with the inherent bonuses, so a lot of the loot the party gets is either not useful for them as straight bonuses and boosts (and thus get sold off or bartered to an NPC or something like that), or is nifty little items with a cool and/or flavorful effect that are not immensely powerful but might give them a nice trick or two up their sleeves.

I'm a big fan of the Magic Item Compendium from 3.5 and other books that provide cool items that do small things but don't fit the "must have" mold of the Big Six items.

Gotcha. So most of the NPCs' wealth is tied into the unlootable boosts instead of lootable items. That makes sense and was my best guess.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Orthos wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Orthos wrote:

I likewise don't give the PCs much the NPCs don't get. NPCs get traits, they tend to have PC-level stats unless they're blah commoners (which, as I said before, don't even get stats in my games), and I tend to give most opponents PC-level wealth as well, because that gives me more freedom to do stuff with their gear.

And yeah, a lot of what Jeff said I agree with.

Interesting!

How do you keep the PCs who beat those opponents from getting mondo-ultra-mega wealth then? Any special rules? Because a party of 6 PCs that defeats two parties of 3 equal leveled NPCs with PC wealth will have just gained their entire expected wealth by level without getting too much of the XP they needed to level up, and if the PCs have much more than PC wealth, then the NPCs having PC wealth still puts them below.

Well, a lot of it is that some of that "wealth" is virtual, in the form of inherent bonuses that aren't based on items, that all characters get to pick from as they level. That removes a lot of the "big six" items that are built into the system, since they wouldn't stack with the inherent bonuses, so a lot of the loot the party gets is either not useful for them as straight bonuses and boosts (and thus get sold off or bartered to an NPC or something like that), or is nifty little items with a cool and/or flavorful effect that are not immensely powerful but might give them a nice trick or two up their sleeves.

I'm a big fan of the Magic Item Compendium from 3.5 and other books that provide cool items that do small things but don't fit the "must have" mold of the Big Six items.

Gotcha. So most of the NPCs' wealth is tied into the unlootable boosts instead of lootable items. That makes sense and was my best guess.

Yup! It's worked out well for us.


Tormsskull wrote:
So, how special (how many freebies) do the PCs get simply because they are PCs?

In many games, PCs get to roll their stats or use a more generous point-buy than the elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8), which is a huge freebee.


Matt Thomason wrote:
Tormsskull wrote:

Hi all,

In reading a lot of threads, I'm seeing many people espousing a point of view that states that the PCs are incredibly heroic people just because they are the PCs. Instead of assuming that, I figured I would ask and get opinions.

Are the PCs:

1.) Heroic because they are the PCs. Even at level 1, these PCs are special people above and beyond other level 1 people.

2.) Just like every other level 1 character with a PC class. PCs only become special or heroic based on their actions in the campaign world.

3.) Something in-between. Explain.

3.)

PCs in my game worlds are about on par with any equivalent NPC as far as ability and skill goes. What they do have going for them, however, is a degree of ... you could call it luck, fate, narrativium, threads in the pattern, the force, whatever. It's something intangible that means they're going to be drawn into the plot and able to affect it far more than they ought to be able to.

Whatever tavern they happen to walk into is going to be the one that has the rumor going around about the governor dabbling in black magic.

Grand Lodge

thejeff wrote:

That said, I've also played a few games where the PCs were the PCs because they were special: One where'd they each started a bit of the essence of a dead god, granting them some special powers. That's why we played those characters rather than some others.

I've got a game in mind where the PCs are actually outsiders of a kind, though they don't really know it. Their special powers will help lead to clues to their actual nature and purpose.

Lot's of Baldur's Gate gameplay for inspiration i imagine?


Darklord Morius wrote:
thejeff wrote:

That said, I've also played a few games where the PCs were the PCs because they were special: One where'd they each started a bit of the essence of a dead god, granting them some special powers. That's why we played those characters rather than some others.

I've got a game in mind where the PCs are actually outsiders of a kind, though they don't really know it. Their special powers will help lead to clues to their actual nature and purpose.
Lot's of Baldur's Gate gameplay for inspiration i imagine?

Actually hadn't even thought of that connection. If I ever knew that bit of the story I'd long forgotten it.

There is an inspiration, but it's more recent and more obscure. The game would start with PCs waking on an icy shoreline as if for the first time. Knowing each other and their various skills, but nothing else. And not feeling the cold.


i typically go with the idea that PCs are a mechanical bit above PC classed NPCs with the exception of Cohorts and Main Villains, both mechanically and plot wise

i don't need some stuff about being chosen to justify it, i merely assume. that no matter how timid the PC, they have Grandiose Ambitions, Ambitions that drive them to work harder and take higher Risks to achieve them.

yes. the lumberjack adventurer would be satisfied for life with a couple thousand gold coins and a +1 adamantine axe

but that is a lumberjack first, he never sought anything on a grandiose scale, just the wealth to feed his family and pay his taxes for a few decades and a tool that would never break during his profession. he pursued adventuring for mundane reasons, he may be a fighter or even ranger, but, when offered a chance to continue, he was too content with what he had

PCs, are supposed to have such grand Ambitions that they never truly feel content or at home, and are always working and developing their skills for high risk labors. hence the 25 point buy allotment. but whilst many humans may be content staying home in their life at the local shire, the lesser numbered nonhumans, tend to have a hard time fitting in, and a vast majority are more susceptible to their ambitions than humans, whether Dwarf, Elf, Planetouched, Half-Nymph or even Tengu or Samsaran, and thus they more often become adventurers

it's not just having grandiose ambitions that make you an adventurer and the even more grandiose ones making you hero or villain material, it's the fact you combine those ambitions with the drive to fulfill them, the willingness to accomplish them at all costs, and a variety of other factors. this can be as simple as runelord levels of Avarice or as complex as ultimate political power.


Obviously, all PCs are ta'veren. Only way they could continually affect the world just by being there!

*waits for confused people who have not yet read Wheel of Time to Google the term ;)*


This is an odd question...

PCs are as special as the GM wants them to be. No statement could be truer. And since GMs run all manner of games this is so highly variable, not just from GM to GM but also within the subset of games one GM may run as well, as to make the entire question moot.


Aranna wrote:
PCs are as special as the GM wants them to be. No statement could be truer. And since GMs run all manner of games this is so highly variable, not just from GM to GM but also within the subset of games one GM may run as well, as to make the entire question moot.

That's why it is an opinion. You're free to say "Under x condition, I run it y way, by under z condition, I run it the opposite way."

Regardless, people tend to gravitate towards certain play styles as their preferred play style.

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