Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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So... Let's try to quantify some of this to make some etiquette that I can actually use.
1) Thou shalt not outshine the PC fighters with thy animal companion.
In other words, give the others a chance to hit first before charging in with Pumpkin.
2) Alloweth thy animal companion to assist the other PCs, by flanking or doing other maneuvers.
3) Honor thy GM, and respect thy fellow players, and bring kitty treats to share.
Does that sound about right?
Hmm
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The problem isn't the Animal Companions themselves, it's players picking the most powerful options and putting them together.
Nobody ever argued that a Badger was overpowered.
Deck that Badger out in Mithral Barding, with tens of thousands of gold worth of magic items, and pair it with a Druid that does nothing but buff said Badger, and yeah, it'll give Bonekeep a run for its money.
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I'll take any limitation on any animal companion I can get.David --
I would love your advice as a GM who sometimes gets frustrated by Animal Companions. Are there etiquette things that I can do as a player to make my furry friend more welcome to the GMs that I play with?
The following comes mostly from the perspective of playing a Lion Shaman.
Having a clear personality helps. My druid was basically a crazy cat lady looking upon her lion as a frail creature that needed to be protected.
This let me, in character, often have the cat basically not do much. If the group had the heavy hitter/tank roles well filled, the lion would hang back and let the other characters do their thing.
But when things went south, or the group didn't have those roles, I'd get to unveil the absurd heights one can achieve with a buffed up lion. Didn't happen every session but was quite satisfying when it did.
The other thing I'd recommend is to not push too hard on what you have the cat do. Keep to things that would be reasonable in a movie for an animal that isn't insanely well trained (a pathfinder animal companion is LESS capable than a well trained circus animal). Have it react as an animal in amusing ways from time to time.
So, basically, be flexible and aware of the other players and their fun and you should have no difficulties.
Flutter, I love this thread. I recently started building a hunter for PFS and this thread helped me out immensely. I have never had an animal companion before and was utterly lost on which way to go.
Do you have any recommendations for Hunter ACs? I'm building a human hunter with Eye for Talent on my wolf AC, bumping his Int up to 4. This gives him 13 'points' to use on tricks and the like. This is the list I've come up with thus far... I'd be interested to get everyone's thoughts on it. Also, anyone have a recommendation on a feat? I have picked Toughness currently and then plan on picking up Power Attack at level 2.
Cinderpaw Trick List:
- Attack (All)
- Defend
- Detect
- Flank
- Flee
- Sneak
- Watch
- Aiding Attack
- Distracting Attack
- Heel (Skirmisher trick)
- Surprise Shift
- Tangling Attack
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I haven't quite absorbed the rules for hunters yet, and I'm not sure which skirmisher tricks they can pick up ( all of them? Just the ones the critters do? How many free action tricks can it set off at once? ) So i don't want to write a guide on them yet.
You might want to replace detect with the more useful seek. Detect works on objects which,in all likelyhood, someone else in the party is going to be able to find and identify. Seek is amazing for invisible creatures (and pfs has a lOT of them), and its also a good way to get your animal companion to "Go over there"
I haven't quite absorbed the rules for hunters yet, and I'm not sure which skirmisher tricks they can pick up ( all of them? Just the ones the critters do? How many free action tricks can it set off at once? ) So i don't want to write a guide on them yet.
You might want to replace detect with the more useful seek. Detect works on objects which,in all likelyhood, someone else in the party is going to be able to find and identify. Seek is amazing for invisible creatures (and pfs has a lOT of them), and its also a good way to get your animal companion to "Go over there"
I completely understand, Flutter. I will keep an eye out here for any potential updates with Hunter ACs if you get into them later.
Good call on Seek! Not sure how I missed that one over Detect.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Hey I was wondering if you could provide some insight into a build I'm trying to make.
I want to multi-class an Elven Treesinger with a Divine Hunter.
Would my levels stack for the purpose of advancing my PLANT companion.
In other words would a level 1-Treesinger/3-Divine Hunter have a lvl 4 Carnivorous Flower plant companion?And would I benefit from both Green and Wild Empathy, essentially negating the -4 check to animals due to Green Empathy?
Alternatively and perhaps an even better option would be to take the Domain Power as a Druid Treesinger lvl 1, and then gain the animal companion granted by the hunter.
However my whole purpose behind this build is to have the Carnivorous Flower.
Would doing things in this order still provide me with that as an option for a companion?Thanks
It should work, a GM might try to pick it apart, but it should stack, unless you take the domain, that will not give you a plant.
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Hey I was wondering if you could provide some insight into a build I'm trying to make.
I want to multi-class an Elven Treesinger with a Divine Hunter.
Would my levels stack for the purpose of advancing my PLANT companion.
In other words would a level 1-Treesinger/3-Divine Hunter have a lvl 4 Carnivorous Flower plant companion?
This is a definite no in pfs. Your friend needs to be on both lists for it to advance fullyLinky specifically to stop that sort of thing.
And would I benefit from both Green and Wild Empathy, essentially negating the -4 check to animals due to Green Empathy?
Unfortunately no. I don't know if an intent or an oversight, but Wild empathy lacks the sort of language that most other class features have that would allow it to stack. If you wanted to, the only way I've figured out how to is to take a level in a prestige class that has wild empathy that stacks with other sources to hotwire them together.
Wild empathy is hard to use in PFS without getting the fast empathy feat, because most things are trying to kill you as soon as they see you. Unless you're specifically building your character around it, you can kind of ignore it (Flutter here is a wild empathy build, just to see if i could)
However my whole purpose behind this build is to have the Carnivorous Flower.
Would doing things in this order still provide me with that as an option for a companion?
Hmmmm.
Nope never mind, divine hunter hunter archetype.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Hey I was wondering if you could provide some insight into a build I'm trying to make.
I want to multi-class an Elven Treesinger with a Divine Hunter.
Would my levels stack for the purpose of advancing my PLANT companion.
In other words would a level 1-Treesinger/3-Divine Hunter have a lvl 4 Carnivorous Flower plant companion?This is a definite no in pfs. Your friend needs to be on both lists for it to advance fullyLinky specifically to stop that sort of thing.
And would I benefit from both Green and Wild Empathy, essentially negating the -4 check to animals due to Green Empathy?Unfortunately no. I don't know if an intent or an oversight, but Wild empathy lacks the sort of language that most other class features have that would allow it to stack. If you wanted to, the only way I've figured out how to is to take a level in a prestige class that has wild empathy that stacks with other sources to hotwire them together.
Wild empathy is hard to use in PFS without getting the fast empathy feat, because most things are trying to kill you as soon as they see you. Unless you're specifically building your character around it, you can kind of ignore it (Flutter here is a wild empathy build, just to see if i could)
However my whole purpose behind this build is to have the Carnivorous Flower.
Would doing things in this order still provide me with that as an option for a companion?Hmmmm.. Forest for the trees. This is the divine hunter paladin archetype and the treesinger druid? The paladin has to be Lawful good and the Druid has to be Neutral something.
Well that FAQ pretty much kills the idea, and I think he is talking about the divine hunter archetype page 95 ACG (those name confusions are going to happen..
http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/faq#v5748eaic9osb
If the character replaces the animal companion for any reason, the new animal starts with no tricks known, save for bonus tricks granted based on the PC's effective druid level. Once per scenario, you may attempt to train the animal companion a number of times equal to the number of ranks you have in the Handle Animal skill. Each success allows you to teach the animal a single trick; a failed attempt counts against the total number of training attempts allowed per scenario, and you may not attempt to teach the same trick until the next scenario. Alternatively, you may train one animal for a single purpose as long as you have enough ranks in Handle Animal to train the animal in each trick learned as part of that purpose. You may take 10 on Handle Animal checks to teach an animal companion tricks.
So if an animal companion dies, a character with 1 rank in Handle Animal can train a new animal for combat riding? Is this finished during the scenario or after?
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Combat Training (DC 20) An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel.
This means there are 6 tricks to learn, so you need 6 ranks in handle animal to teach your animal companion those.
The once per scenario is something I personally interpret as being either before or after the adventure itself, because during the adventure you generally don't have a few weeks time to train your animal.
I'd go with before you start out, talk with the GM and ask him/her to oversee your take 10 or handle animal roll before the ingame VC briefing so your animal is trained when you start.
Edit: if the companion gets replaced during/at the end of the adventure because of death, then the first time training will be at the end of that scenario.
Ah I see. Does no one else see this ruling as ridiculous for low level characters with animal companions? If your animal companion dies in a tier 1 session, it will take multiple scenarios just to get an animal with basic combat training.
That said, there is a possible loophole to get around this ruling (p.10 pathfinder society field guide)
"Before you level up a character for the first time, you
may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society
Number. Changes may only be made between adventures
and before playing as a character above 1st level."
Could one retrain animal companion to domain and then retrain domain back to animal companion between adventures to get an animal with 7 tricks? This is extreme cheese, but it is justified in response to a draconian (imo) ruling.
Should animal companion classes just be avoided in low level PFS play?
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I'm not really sure.
On one hand, it's supposed to be an incentive to keep your animal companion alive, but on the other hand it penalizes you if it dies and you have a very intelligent animal companion.
Using the rebuilding rules for level 1 that way feels like abusing them, but is perfectly legal, and I'm probably going to be doing that as well if my hunter's companion (13 tricks at level 1) happens to have an unfortunate accident dispite my best efforts to keep her alive at level 1.
Should she die at level 2, it's going to take quite a while to get them all back, because I can't buy a combat trained version.
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Ah I see. Does no one else see this ruling as ridiculous for low level characters with animal companions? If your animal companion dies in a tier 1 session, it will take multiple scenarios just to get an animal with basic combat training.
That said, there is a possible loophole to get around this ruling (p.10 pathfinder society field guide)
"Before you level up a character for the first time, you
may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society
Number. Changes may only be made between adventures
and before playing as a character above 1st level."Could one retrain animal companion to domain and then retrain domain back to animal companion between adventures to get an animal with 7 tricks? This is extreme cheese, but it is justified in response to a draconian (imo) ruling.
Should animal companion classes just be avoided in low level PFS play?
There needs to be some penalty. This penalty is already pretty much a non-penalty. I have never seen an animal companion die in low tier. Ever. The NPCs can't hit their armor classes consistently enough.
Should she die at level 2, it's going to take quite a while to get them all back, because I can't buy a combat trained version.
There are actually rules in the Animal Archive (p. 14-15) for buying combat trained animals at 150% of their normal cost. Also, I believe you can buy a combat trained light horse and it becomes a horse animal companion after the 24 hour ritual, so there are definitely some options if your AC dies.
There needs to be some penalty. This penalty is already pretty much a non-penalty. I have never seen an animal companion die in low tier. Ever. The NPCs can't hit their armor classes consistently enough.
Fair enough, and after more research it isn't so bad because you can buy a combat trained dog or horse and change them into an animal companion. Horse is one of the best ACs as long as movement/space isn't a problem.
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I've got an Mammoth (Elephant) as animal companion. (Mammoth Lord trait, and I'm planning on going Mammoth Rider prestige class)
Animals: all animal companions on pages 28-29 are legal for purchase. Animals on pages 14-15 are legal for purchase except dinosaurs and megafauna (unless already allowed in this document in Bestiary 1, Bestiary 2, Bestiary 3, or Ultimate Equipment) and dire animals. Additionally, only creatures of the animal type of size Large and smaller may be purchased.
So, I'm not really sure how that would work :P
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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So if teaching an animal a language after it gets Int 3 doesn't help its sentience or get you past the need for tricks - what IS it good for?
And is there an Int threshold at which animals become sentient? A paladin's mount has a minimum Int of 6, is it sentient yet?
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So if teaching an animal a language after it gets Int 3 doesn't help its sentience or get you past the need for tricks - what IS it good for?
Extra tricks. Now actually relevant with the animal archive.
More leeway from the DM in how the animal will act on its own.Most importantly, a 3 int will open up any feat that the animal can physically do, rather than being limited to the list in the players handbook.
And is there an Int threshold at which animals become sentient? A paladin's mount has a minimum Int of 6, is it sentient yet?
Technically no. Sentience doesn't have many/any in game effects really, so its not a big deal.
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I've got an Mammoth (Elephant) as animal companion. (Mammoth Lord trait, and I'm planning on going Mammoth Rider prestige class)
So, I'm not really sure how that would work :P
Animals: all animal companions on pages 28-29 are legal for purchase. Animals on pages 14-15 are legal for purchase except dinosaurs and megafauna (unless already allowed in this document in Bestiary 1, Bestiary 2, Bestiary 3, or Ultimate Equipment) and dire animals. Additionally, only creatures of the animal type of size Large and smaller may be purchased.
your special friend is part of your class feature and a gift from nature itself. It is not bought, so the listed prohibitions don't apply.
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Yeah, animal companions are "bound" to the trick system no matter how much INT they gain.
Oddly enough, Familiars have super Intelligence compared to Animal Companions, and yet they can't learn tricks.
I thought about building a Halfling with a Pig Familiar, and taking the feat that lets you ride smaller creatures, but the Pig can never actually become "Combat Trained".
your special friend is part of your class feature and a gift from nature itself. It is not bought, so the listed prohibitions don't apply.
You can buy an animal companion and attune to it. This has the advantage of skipping the 6 tricks training for combat riding.
In some cases, replacing an animal companion or familiar can be as easy as purchasing an animal of the desired type and declaring it your new companion. Attuning a familiar to its new master requires a ritual. Choosing an animal companion requires 24 hours of prayer. The ceremony can also be used to attract and bond with an animal appropriate to the local environment.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-compa nions
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your special friend is part of your class feature and a gift from nature itself. It is not bought, so the listed prohibitions don't apply.I've got an Mammoth (Elephant) as animal companion. (Mammoth Lord trait, and I'm planning on going Mammoth Rider prestige class)
So, I'm not really sure how that would work :P
Animals: all animal companions on pages 28-29 are legal for purchase. Animals on pages 14-15 are legal for purchase except dinosaurs and megafauna (unless already allowed in this document in Bestiary 1, Bestiary 2, Bestiary 3, or Ultimate Equipment) and dire animals. Additionally, only creatures of the animal type of size Large and smaller may be purchased.
I know it's part of my class feature, so as long as I manage to keep it alive I'm perfectly good.
However we were discussing the options of buying a trained animal to bond with if the most unfortunate circumstance would come to pass. In that case it'd be impossible for me to buy a trained mammoth to bond with, I'll always have to travel back to the Realm of the Mammoth Lords and bond with a completely new to train mammoth.
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I'll just ask this here, since this thread keeps putting it in my head:
Large bears? Please? Pretty please? I'll beg if I have to.
That I know of, there is precisely one way to do that on a permanent basis. Beast Rider Cavalier.
In addition, a 7th-level or higher Medium beast rider can select any creature whose natural size is Large or Huge, provided that creature is normally available as a Medium-sized animal companion at 7th level (like a bear). To generate statistics for such a mount, apply the following modifications:
•Size Large
•Ability Scores Str +2, Dex –2, Con +2;
•Increase the damage of each of the mount’s natural attacks by one die size.
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your special friend is part of your class feature and a gift from nature itself. It is not bought, so the listed prohibitions don't apply.I've got an Mammoth (Elephant) as animal companion. (Mammoth Lord trait, and I'm planning on going Mammoth Rider prestige class)
So, I'm not really sure how that would work :P
Animals: all animal companions on pages 28-29 are legal for purchase. Animals on pages 14-15 are legal for purchase except dinosaurs and megafauna (unless already allowed in this document in Bestiary 1, Bestiary 2, Bestiary 3, or Ultimate Equipment) and dire animals. Additionally, only creatures of the animal type of size Large and smaller may be purchased.
I know it's part of my class feature, so as long as I manage to keep it alive I'm perfectly good.
However we were discussing the options of buying a trained animal to bond with if the most unfortunate circumstance would come to pass. In that case it'd be impossible for me to buy a trained mammoth to bond with, I'll always have to travel back to the Realm of the Mammoth Lords and bond with a completely new to train mammoth.
Which is, for the purposes of PFS, an irrelevant detail, as there is an unspecified period of time between scenarios.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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Flutter, Damanta, David, et al. --
Thank you for all your advice! I finally got a chance to play Zahra and her adorable tiger companion, Pumpkin, in PFS. We had a blast! I held Pumpkin back at first, but we needed all the fighters we could get and Pumpkin helped flank and grapple so that the fighters could do their thing. He won a lot of good will that way.
Your advice was very helpful for me. :)
Thank you all again!
Hmm
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Which is, for the purposes of PFS, an irrelevant detail, as there is an unspecified period of time between scenarios.your special friend is part of your class feature and a gift from nature itself. It is not bought, so the listed prohibitions don't apply.I've got an Mammoth (Elephant) as animal companion. (Mammoth Lord trait, and I'm planning on going Mammoth Rider prestige class)
So, I'm not really sure how that would work :P
Animals: all animal companions on pages 28-29 are legal for purchase. Animals on pages 14-15 are legal for purchase except dinosaurs and megafauna (unless already allowed in this document in Bestiary 1, Bestiary 2, Bestiary 3, or Ultimate Equipment) and dire animals. Additionally, only creatures of the animal type of size Large and smaller may be purchased.
I know it's part of my class feature, so as long as I manage to keep it alive I'm perfectly good.
However we were discussing the options of buying a trained animal to bond with if the most unfortunate circumstance would come to pass. In that case it'd be impossible for me to buy a trained mammoth to bond with, I'll always have to travel back to the Realm of the Mammoth Lords and bond with a completely new to train mammoth.
But, for PFS purposes, a replacement mammoth would start with only the bonus trick(s), and, if available, tricks equal to however many ranks the mammoth rider has in Handle Animal, if the GM allows him to do the training of the new mammoth at the end of the session he lost the old mammoth in.
Then he could get the same number of tricks in at the beginning of the next scenario, hopefully, but even that won't help either below 3rd level, or if you have to roll for training, instead of taking 10 with success, since you will likely get failures if you need more than a 10 to succeed.
After a certain point, it should become moot, but, before then, it can be a pain.
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Catch and Release
Often pathfinders find themselves unhappy with some aspect of their character. A feat that looked bright and shiny may rarely be of any practical use when you try to use it, you may have missed some fine print, or a new option may be just perfect for your character. Fortunately the ultimate combat training rules allow you to spend prestige to swap the feats.
The same thing is just as likely to happen to your four (or more, or less) legged friend.
- A new option becomes available
- A feat doesn't work like you thought it did
- You realize that you'll need to meet a prerequisite for a feat you want
- You want an entirely different animal. People often start with an animal that has an early growth spurt at 4th, then switch again at 7th to a late bloomer
- Your animal companion died and you need a new one
- And most commonly,(it had BETTER be more common than them dying) the feats you picked for your cute little bundle of joy when they were young and dex based stops being useful once they hit their 4th or 7th level growth spurt
Unfortunately for our scaley and fuzzy friends You cannot retrain your animal companion because they don't have prestige..
What you can do however, is release the animal companion from service and acquire a new one. The mechanics for this are pretty strait forward. You release the animal companion and you get a new one next session
Your critter only comes fully trained when you first acquire the ability to get them, so this fuzzy friend will show up only knowing the free bonus tricks you get based on your effective druid level. If you are really short on tricks, defend, heel, and down will give you a somewhat useful bodyguard, even if you won't be able to send them after specific targets and it might not be willing to bite a zombie for you.
To train them you can, in the nebulous time in between scenarios, make 1 attempt to train the animal per rank in handle animal. You may take 10 on this check, and if that will let you succeed you should do so, since there's no benefit in getting a higher result. There's no word on whether this is before or after the scenario, so you'll have to ask the DM when he wants to allow you to train. Training for a purpose isn't that much different than training each trick individually. Get the tricks you absolutely need first (attack twice) , and then worry about the other ones.
This is infinitely easier for higher level characters, who can retrain their new friend twice over in on session, and very hard on lower level characters who may have to spend multiple sessions with a half trained half wild beast as they inch their way towards obedience. To avoid this (and having druids local 704 break out the pointy sticks) see the beginning of the thread for armor and items for your non humanoid pathfinder.
Remember when picking your new feats that just because your animal companion appeared fully formed right next to you doesn't mean you can take any feat he qualifies for NOW. You weren't always the center of his life. He grew up organically and has to qualify for the feats when they select them. This is also a good time to decide what kind of armor your friend will be wearing for the rest of his career now that his size has stabalized.
A bigger concern is, oddly enough, the role playing aspects of such an action. If you release a level 7 grey cat with black spots named Fluffy the Terrible with weapon finesse who likes tuna and long walks on the beach and acquire a level 7 grey cat with black spots named Fluffy the terrible with toughness and power attack likes tuna and long walks on the beach.. are they the same animal?
I think ultimately that question is up to the player and how they feel about it. The only mechanical effect I'm aware of is the Stone of Alliance, which definitely disolves along with your bond anyway. Some other players and DMs might make a few jokes about the cat "Not being the same anymore" or "Does He look different to you?" but they'll die down after a few sessions and the fluffy you have and love will be the same fluffy you've always had and loved.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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For the record, relevant parts of the FAQ
@Flutter: in the Guide to Organized Play 6.0, step 8 of filling in a chronicle sheet is recording that the animal learned new tricks. According to the FAQ you can do it only once per scenario.
So supposedly, if you lost a companion in session 1, you could acquire a new one and teach it 1 trick, then teach it another trick just before session 2 starts. You're just bound to a limit of 1 teaching per session.
Note also that the FAQ allows training for a general purpose; that's up to 6 tricks at once, provided your Take 10 is good enough. That tidbit should allow you to start with a fully trained companion after a couple of levels.
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So if teaching an animal a language after it gets Int 3 doesn't help its sentience or get you past the need for tricks - what IS it good for?
And is there an Int threshold at which animals become sentient? A paladin's mount has a minimum Int of 6, is it sentient yet?
Since I missed this one:
Animal companions with 3+ int can use ioun stones.
In PFS animals never become sentient from what I understand from it.
But the paladin mount will know an awesome amount of tricks, and being able to teach it an (uncommon) language will help by giving it commands your enemy (hopefully) doesn't understand.
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And the Nagaji paladin is being accompanied by:
Human paladin with 7 int, but with eye for talent so his mount is at 8 int.
I see a very nice party in the making, where the animals are the ones that make the decisions of where to go and what to do, because the humanoids are too stupid.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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It's just inconsistent. Either they're nonsentient regardless of Int and can't learn Linguistics, or they become somewhat sentient at Int 3 and language is useful. Now it just confuses people who think that an animal with Int 3+ doesn't need tricks anymore because you can just talk to them. I don't really care either way, but this is just messy.
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For the record, relevant parts of the FAQ
@Flutter: in the Guide to Organized Play 6.0, step 8 of filling in a chronicle sheet is recording that the animal learned new tricks. According to the FAQ you can do it only once per scenario.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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For the record, relevant parts of the FAQ
@Flutter: in the Guide to Organized Play 6.0, step 8 of filling in a chronicle sheet is recording that the animal learned new tricks. According to the FAQ you can do it only once per scenario.
Very interesting. I'll note that in the PFS session that I played, the GM had me roll my handle animal skill 8 times despite all of Pumpkin's tricks, because she thought that Pumpkin would be freaked out in a number of the circumstances we faced. (Granted, one of them involved lowering Pumpkin in a jury-rigged harness down a hole so that he could follow us somewhere where there were no stairs -- no complaints from me on that call.) Others though were for doing things like attacking constructs because "Pumpkin had never seen them before" despite me having the "attack" trick twice.
I'm really glad that I had my handle animal skill up so high. It was worth it to have the skill as a class skill, the tiger training harness, and my sorcerer's high charisma score. I intend to keep plunking skill ranks in that skill, despite my general lack of skill points as a sorceress.
It was my most rolled skill that game.
Hmm